Talk:Lithuanian people

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Contents 1 Cleanup tag 2 Total Population and Regions with Significant Population 3 Photo 4 NPOV 5 Mischief 6 Lacking information about: 7 The last pagans? 8 lithuanian traits 9 "related groups" info removed from infobox 10 Lithuanian population overseas 11 History

[edit] Cleanup tag

I added the cleanup tag since the article needs to be changed to fit Wikipedia's style and needs its grammar fixed. PeepP 01:16, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

PeepP, that is very diplomatically put. In fact, as of now, this article is semi-paranoid. anon July 12, 2005 14:50 GMT

I have now removed the tag again, since the (most welcomed) edit by User:66.30.94.153 fixed most of the annoyances. However, I'm still not completely satisfied with the article. For example, take this sentence: "A standard Lithuanian language was approved.". Originally this was "standart (sic) Lithuanian language was approved." Does this mean that the "standard" Lithuanian was approved of, or that a standard was developed, like the article currently states? PeepP 22:21, July 18, 2005 (UTC)

developed 10:19, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

• "One eighth of Lithuanians are immune to HIV which is also one of the highest percentages of immunity in the world." This statement needs to documented from the peer-reviewed medical-scientific literature before being included. 70.187.149.53 15:20, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

• I agree with anon that much of this article is semi-paranoid in tone, with strong overtones of the early 20th century eugenics movement ethos. As a Lithuanian, I take some offense. Didz

[edit] Total Population and Regions with Significant Population

I am very displeased with the poor quality of this section in comparison to that of the other ethnic groups - very specific citations and extensive research - i am the one who added AND CITED the number of Lithuanians in Canada and the U.S. and Australia because those were the only nations I could find that had online census information . Please CITE! If there are no citations for the rather unconventional list of Lithuanians "elsewhere in Eurasia", any non-cited line on the list should be removed.

800 000 lithuanians in Brazil???? WHere is this number taken from? On LIthuanian version of this page it says about 35-45 thousands.

[edit] Photo

I am aware that most major ethnic groups have a small portrait of several famous/important/influential members of that ethnic group...can ours please be made cleaner? Some are put together and uploaded as one image. Charle's Bronson's image is irrelevant, a bad shape, and there are many more important Lithuanians than this one (who was not even born in Lithuania) whom we could include. My request is to either be taught how to make this image, or for someone else to update.

So if I am correctly understand you - if somebody do not born in Lithuania he is not important? M.K. 10:16, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

To M.K.: You do not correctly understand me. I am just saying that there are better people to use as examples of famous Lithuanians. Yes, i think it is obvious that a Lithuanian born in Lithuania is a better example of a Lithuanian than others. -J. Raudys

Charles Bronson was still an ethnic Lithuanian, his parents were from Lithuania and was one of the most famous actors of the 20th century. I don't see why you wouldnt want him included. This was the only photo on wikipedia, if you can find a better one of him that is also properly licenced, go right ahead. Epf 02:23, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

This article began as a highly racist rant and this article retains many of those elements. The views expressed in (and the assumptions made in) the genetics section are, to say the least, highly controversial. The emphasis on 'blonde girls' appears to betray an outright racist intent. At the very least, this article needs some sources. - AmishThrasher 13:34, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree that sources are required but what is in particular wrong with blondes in the text? There are less blondes in each new generation, it is fact, not a controversy. Sigitas 16:37, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

The very notion that a national group is defined by its 'genetics' rather than its cultures and traditions is highly controversial; particularly if you define a Lithuanian as someone whose ancestors were the member of a Baltic tribe. This implies that someone, originally from another background, who migrated to Lithuania, spent an extensive time living there, and assimilated to Lithuania's language, customs and traditions and obtained a Lithuanian citizenship would nonetheless never be a Lithuania. Similarly, this implies that the large Polish, Belorussian, and historical Jewish populations in Lithuania - many of whom were born in Lithuania and had ancestors who lived within Lithuania for centuries - were nonetheless not 'Lithuanians'. This also assumes that many of those who do trace their ancestry back to the Baltic tribes never had an ancestor from elsewhere (given the number of times Lithuania has been occupied by foreign powers over the centuries, this point is highly contentious).

"Genetically Lithuanians are one of tallest peoples in the world. Height acceleration was fast through the 20th century although now it has slowed down." - There are also a lot of short Lithuanians, and a lot of tall people of other nationalities. Is there any evidence that the average height of Lithuanians is taller than people from other countries or ethnic backgrounds?

"Although blondes, especially blonde girls, tend to be talked about much in Lithuanian folklore, the actual pecentage of them is on the decline." - Are there any statistics to back this up? I'm not even sure, unless there were historical records, how you would go about measuring this. Also, why the emphasis on blondes? Is there a subtext in this emphasis about racial purity?

"Genetic divisions between the different Lithuanian groups were more pronounced earlier--in the 19th and early 20th centuries for example. However, an increasing number of marriages between the varying subgroups has severely reduced these genetic distinctions. The genetic distinction of Lithuanians as a nation might be threatened due to the increasing rate of marriage with outsiders, the number of which increased during the Soviet occupation, and increases still more due to immigration and integration into the European Union." - Is there any evidence that the physical features or genetic characteristics of Lithuanian subgroups were more pronounced in the past? Also, if there is less physical difference now between Lithuanian subgroups, wouldn't it suggest that many Lithuanians can trace their ancestry to a number of subgroups, and that the differences between the subgroups of Lithuania today have more to do with cultural and geographic identity rather than genetics? In which case, why not talk more about the cultural distinctions and less about supposed historical 'genetic' differences?

"One in eight Lithuanians have the CCR5-Δ32 receptor gene, which may provide some protection against certains strains of HIV and of Black Plague. This is one of the highest rates in the world." - Again, a statistic? - AmishThrasher 03:24, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I've cleaned this article up - AmishThrasher 07:15, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

AmishThrasher-"This implies that someone, originally from another background, who migrated to Lithuania, spent an extensive time living there, and assimilated to Lithuania's language, customs and traditions and obtained a Lithuanian citizenship would nonetheless never be a Lithuanian.". AmishThrasher, this is correct, because article is abouth ethnic group. Wikipedia describes Ethnic group as a human population whose members identify with each other, usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry (Smith 1986). Ethnic groups are also usually united by common cultural, behavioral, linguistic, or religious practices. In this sense, an ethnic group is also a cultural community. So it is not enough to get Lithuanian passport and learn language to become ethnic Lithuanian - common genealogy or ancestry are the most important. Sigitas 09:53, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

and it is understandable that in such homogenic ethnic group as Lithuanians, some particular genes dominate. Sigitas 09:54, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with AmishThrasher that some parts of the piece were ridiculous and in need of change, but hardly racist. If one says that blonde hair predomimates in Iceland, and brown eyes predominate in Nigeria, it's (at least currently), as axiomatic as the sun rising in in the east and setting in the west. Nothing controversial or racist about it. "Racial Purity" is a concept that AmishThrasher introduced into the talk pages, and was not evident to me in the poorly written article by it contributors. Lastly, regarding ethnicity, different people have different viewpoints on the subject. Some people simply think, their opinion is the right one, that's all. Dr. Dan 00:38, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mischief

I removed Lamatians; this is apparently a people from science fiction (see Glory_Season) Novickas 16:50, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lacking information about:

I wanted to know some more things like origin of Lithuanians, here I put some questions, and citations from the internet with source directed.

• Origin of Lithuanians?

It was the Samogitians and the inhabitants of Aukstota who became the ancestors of today's Lithuanians. Aukstota - which means highland in Lithuanian - is nowhere mentioned as such in the medieval chronicles and did not seem to be a political entity. Many of its place names contain the word aukstas, or high, while Samogitia, further to the west, means lowland. The city of Vilna (currently know as Vilnius) the present capital of Lithuania, is in Aukstota and Lithuanian scholars consider Aukstota to be the heart of the Lithuanian ethnic area. They claim that Aukstota was the location of the original Litva and that it was from here that Duke Mindouh (Mindaugas in modern Lithuanian) left to conquer the adjoining Duchy of Novaharodak and established the Grand Duchy of Litva. However, the separate ethnic character of Litva is supported by the non-Slavic names of their leaders - Mindouh, Vojsalk, etc. Mr. Jermalovic feels that Litva referred to an unassimilated Baltic ethnic island. I found this here

In article is written: "The territory of the Balts, including modern Lithuania, was once inhabited by several Baltic tribal entities (Sudovians, Curonians, Selonians, Samogitians, Nadruvians and others), as attested by ancient sources and dating from prehistoric times." Oops, but where lithuanians are gone? And how all these tribes switched to lithuanian endonym when lithuanians are not mentioned? I know it is romantical idea of "unity of baltic tribes", but how then lithuanians are formed when lithuanians don't participated? Is it true that up to the end of XIX century many people in Samogitia refered themselves as samogitians instead of lithuanians, so called lithuanian dualism? --Vulpes vulpes 13:37, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

• The meaning of the name "Lithuanian"?

The 12th century annals tell us that the inhabitans of Litva were paying taxes to the duchy of Polacak and there are many references to Litva serving as mercentary soldiers in the military campaigns of the dukes of Polacak. In fact, the Lithuanians developed a reputation for military prowess. Some hisstorians point out that the suffix -tva in "Litva" is one commonly used in Slavic collective nous to describe. I found this here

• Philosophy of Lithuanians?

• What were Lithuanians good at?

About origin of Lithuanians. The Lithuania consists of not only "Samogitians and inhabitants of Aukstota",but of Sudovians and Dainavos(Dzukijos) inhabinants too. I personally recommend not to use Belarasian sources, cause there you could find that The Grand Duchy of Lithuania, was actually Belarasian country cause majority of citicens were belarasians. There are many Baltic tribes(more than twenty) which generrally are attributed as Latvian, Prussian and Lithuanian communities, however there are couple tribes which are half prussian-half lithuanian. The main differences between 3 balts groups are linguistics and burying traditions.

Tautvydas

[edit] The last pagans?

"Lithuanians were the last surviving non-nomadic European nation to abandon paganism." That's not correct. The last pagans, not nomads, were in Russia: chuvashes, Mari people, udmurts. They were baptized from in XVI, XVIII centuries. And paganism still alive there among some. Look: [1][2] --Vulpes vulpes 13:51, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] lithuanian traits

my dads side of the family is lithuanian and although we all have blond hair(dark blond) none of us are tall except me and im only 5-6 not over 6 feet (i am still growing though) and all of our eyes are either green or brown not blue (im hazel). So why am i not supertall with light blond hair and blue eyes? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Erikkaz (talk • contribs) 06:26, 15 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] "related groups" info removed from infobox

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 16:49, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lithuanian population overseas

Ireland

Please don't remove Ireland as a country of Lithuanian residence- there are currently 100 000 or more Lithuanians in Ireland.

According to the source I have linked to there are officially only 35,000 in Ireland (based on PPS no.s issued since Enlargement). 100,000 is only speculative based on assumptions of the Black Economy and dependents brought to Ireland. I put up the link btw.(Irishman).

Number of PPS numbers artificially decreases actual number of immigrants as aobviously not everyone has and needs PPS number. My own daughter doesn't have one. Sigitas 14:31, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay but it's the closest we have to an official figure, and the media constantly interpret the PPS no.s as the best available estimate. (Irishman)

I changed the number to 45,000 and added a source for it. Please also check out Lithuanians in Ireland Taoiseach :)

Brazil

Wonder if the source about the Lithuanian population in Brazil is correct. 800,000 seems too much; different sources (various Lithuanian encyclopaedias, Lithuanian wiki page - http://lt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lietuviai#_note-2 ) estimate it 45,000 to 150,000, have looked through the PDF in Portuguese, linked as source for 800,000 population in Brazil, but could not find any hint to it (although I am not prof at Portugeuse).

France

The estimate of the Lithuanian population in France (4,000) is based on the combined assessments of the Lithuanian embassy in Paris and the Lithuanian Community in France^[1]. No hard data exists at this stage, the numbers are debated depending on who can claim to be a Lithuanian. Unlike Britain, Spain, Ireland and Germany, France isn't a place of choice for Lithuanian emigration and numbers are likely to remain fairly low.

[edit] History

In the Heading of History a huge jump has been made from medieval times to the end of the 19th century. In relation to the Regions with significant populations this is a bit odd. Namely during the "Great Northern War" at the beginning of the 18th century there was an exodus of people fleeing from Lithuania (namely Jews) to Western Europe. Most of them ended up in the Netherlands at the time a relative free haven. At the beginning they were absorbed in the bigger cities like Amsterdam. However this was soon put to an end and many had to settle in the various provinces of the Netherlands. The exodus must have been quite steep since both in later Lithuania and the Netherlands this was of a major concern. Lithuania had literally to be repopulated. The Netherlands suffered many year of relative food shortages. One must realize that especially Jews at the time were not welcome in Germany, France, or England. Today many inhabitants of the Netherlands don't realize they are in fact descendends of a Lithuanian diaspora. It is striking therefore that the Netherlands is not included in the list of significant populations.

drs. M.R. Niekus