Talk:List of Naruto characters/Archive 2

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
← Archive 1 Archive 2

Contents

Merge n' Purge

The last discussion became ridiculously long ridiculously fast, so it has been archived. If you would like to sift through the prior debates (good or bad), you can look there. In any event, my revised opinions on merges are as follows, given under the impression that each and every random jutsu will not follow the character to a list.

Easily mergeable
Can be merged
Unfeasibly mergeable

Note the key word in the second list: "can". Emphasis means that it is possible to merge the character, though not necessarily advisable. Provide opinions on the matter below. Also avoid basing your opinions on your personal interest in the character or their importance within the series; doing so will cause your opinion to be conveniently ignored. ~SnapperTo 20:47, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Guy should be merged, half of his article (besides templates and links and stuff) is a big, repeating page about his relationship with Lee, like how Hinata's repeated the same info over and over. I could actually say Orochimaru can be merged (not saying he should), large parts of his article is his abilities or past, which can be trimmed down. We've gone too far with this merging thing, by the way, and we should generally just decide not only by just how mergeable they are, but their importance for the series too. Shikamaru, for example, has done more than Sakura has in the series and played a bigger role in the Hidan and Kakuzu arc than Naruto himself did, and thus can be verified as a main character. Sai and Yamato should be merged, and I could care less if it is in the Konoha page or not. Jiraiya, Tsunade, and Shikamaru, considering how Kishimoto has given no out of universe information on any of them, (or any other characters) are nicely written articles. Neji, Lee, Itachi are also written in a satisfying enough way. Half of Gaara's article is his abilities, so I'm not sure about him. So, basically, keep Team 7, the Sannin, Shikamaru, Lee and Neji, and Itachi; merge Sai and Yamato, Kabuto, Guy, and the Third Hokage. And also, I repeat, the merging obsession has gone too far, we should take more into consideration than one-minded thought about who can and can't be merged. Seriously, if we're just going to keep five articles, I'll just merge them too, even Naruto. (And yes, I WOULD do that and wouldn't be against it) Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 16:23, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
I love how you seem to love bringing this back up Snap. /sigh Anyway: I guess Guy could be trimmed and placed on the Konoha ninja page, the Sannin and the Third all have importance to the show, for when they were in the show to when they left or stayed. Sai and Yamato I have said many times, while they are new, they count as main for what they have done so far. I count them on a similar level as Gaara, who is obviously a main. But I agree with Artist, this Merge Obsession is getting much to far, we have enough articles, with good information in each, and we don't need to merge anymore. TheUltimate3 19:24, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
I have not brought this up since your request that we take a break a few weeks back, Ult, something other people have not been as courteous to do. As for bringing an end to this "merge obsession", I am aware that we are reaching the point where it can no longer be continued without complicating things. I am also aware that something that can be merged should not necessarily be merged. I have no interest in merging Shikamaru; I was merely pointing out that he could be merged if necessary. In any event, Artist has suggested merging five of the six articles that I believe can be merged with little difficulty. I'll sit on this for a few days and see if any other suggestions/objections come up, and then I'll put this discussion to rest. ~SnapperTo 19:52, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Don't you mean four of the five, unless you include Guy? Guy can so very easily be merged without effort, as most of that article can be shortened, worked around, or simply ignored. And Yamato has the shortest article in Naruto, it is only 6,687 bytes, so he'd be merged so very easily too, and to a lesser extent so can Sai and Kabuto, regardless of their role. (And Sai and Yamato aren't main characters yet, they are more like Kiba or Choji at this point) Alot of the Third's article can be worked around or ignored, and death sections can always be shortened to a paragraph. Itachi is a special case, as we know by a month from now he'll most likely be playing a colossal role, and his article is already large enough as it is, so we might as well keep it and see how it goes for the next two or three months for now. The rest are keep for various reasons. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 20:14, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
You suggested five merges: Sai, Yamato, Kabuto, Guy, and the Third Hokage. I believe Itachi could easily be added to that mix, hence them being "five of the six articles that I believe can be merged with little difficulty". ~SnapperTo 20:25, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
If Sai and Yamato are Choji and Kiba at this point, they still aren't extras which is why I oppose merging them to a list. The Third requires thought. Anyway I go on vacation on thursday and won't be back until at least Monday, can we hold off until then?
Sai and Yamato (along with Kabuto and Guy) can be merged so very easily their role doesn't matter (virtually nothing listed there could be lost unless it is absolutely useless, like Blood Type). And I really don't mean to disappoint you, but something this major would be very hard to hold off. We should still discuss, though, but not act. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 21:11, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I know they can easily be merged, its just I don't want to see them clumped with Konohamaru and the other extras which they are clearly not. And the discussion but not act works for me, as long as everyone who wants to be apart of this is included on the outcome. TheUltimate3 21:19, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

There isn't anywhere else they could go other than the list of "extras". Besides, List of Konoha ninja is not entirely composed of random characters; look at the Fourth Hokage for instance. ~SnapperTo 00:43, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

For all extensive purposes, he is an extra. /shrug Isn't there any place we can put those two thats not the Konoha nin page?TheUltimate3 01:23, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Not really. And there's nothing wrong with the Konoha nin page, regardless of what its current content suggests it's intended for. ~SnapperTo 03:07, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Its just when they get on that page, any real importance they have is lost and they become for or less foot notes. Because I got lots of crap to do today before I go off, here's a question, what would be lost if they were to be merged? Because really all those two characters have are their abilities, and their personalitiesTheUltimate3 12:03, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Well, with Guy nothing that is not useless will be lost (see my attempt here). Sai and Yamato will keep virtually everything. Kabuto can be summed up in four paragraphs. We should try to not make a large list of abilities for the Third and only the few that actually matter, and then mention he excels in fire and earth jutsu blah blah. Itachi's article is already long enough to keep, and by two or three months his role will largely increase and we'll know a lot more about him, mabye even when this translation comes out. Yeah, Wikipedia isn't a crystal ball, but Itachi is a major character and major antagonist in the series under WP:FICT and his article is of an appropriate enough length to keep. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 14:03, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Out of curiosity,wasn't it majority rule that Kabuto not be merged?Lastbetrayal 16:22, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes. But that was small scale majority rule, for at least medium scale, look at the Itachi article's talk page. Large scale is over 25 people saying it shouldn't be deleted. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 22:10, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

That was expected. Not happy with it obviously but expected. /shrug But I still say Sai should atleast be moved to Konoha 11. At least under (Other Members) if it could be added. EDIT: Pity. Aw well, images saved until needed.TheUltimate3 21:14, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Gaara can not be that easily merged. His abilities can be trimmed but he is still a very big and import character to the story appearing in many, many archs. I'd hold off on Itachi seening as his current role will increase as Artist says.(Sorry if i'm eoching anyone)Blackcat1313 00:59, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Congratulations, you have screwed up the entire Naruto section.

Who here hates the new footer that only lists about 10 characters out of a 25+ character manga? Not only that, but many main characters and important characters have been removed from the footer and merged into a general article, causing massive loadtimes for those articles.

Example? Oto's page. I can't imagine how long it takes that much text to load on Dial-up. Do you want people to not be able to load the articles?

Also, because of the merges, it is now harder to find character information. Sifting through massive pages takes much more time to find the character you're looking for, even if you use the top-clicky thing.

I'm begging you, please undo this horrible mistake. It'll be much easier to add all of the new information on these so-called 'mergeable' characters that is sure to bombard us eventually if you just undo this screw-up now.

We're not here to deal with the problems of people who have a slow Internet connection. There's no problem with it under the current size guideline. There's a big table of contents for finding information on the person you want. And if you want articles on those characters, then find where they have real-world coverage by reliable, verifiable third party sources. We'll be more than happy to make them. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 04:09, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Calm down. Wikipedia does acknowledge the problem of pages taking too much time to load when using slow connections, see technical issues in the size guidelines article. If a significant number of people are having trouble loading this page then "we" have a problem. People being unable to attain information from this site interfere with wikipedias goal of producing reference material free to all people. Though I'm not sure myself if the size of this article should be considered as too large for people with dial-up connections (probably not), it's certainly an issue to be aware of. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.177.4.84 (talk) 14:43, August 28, 2007 (UTC)

Specific Characters:

Merging Orochimaru's page is surely out of the question. It's massively long! If you add it to the Otogakure page, you'll kill any hope of it being loaded on Dial-up.

I would recommend strongly against merging Kabuto's page, since it has been hinted that he maybe a key factor in the manga later, depending on the Orochimaru's DNA situation. Better to be safe than sorry.

Merging Jiraiya and Tsunade's pages: No. If you absolutely have to merge the Sannin's pages, give them an article to themselves titled 'The Sannin' or something so that their articles don't kill the already over-whelmed Otogakure and Konohagakure pages.

Merging the Hokage pages: Sarutobi's article is another one that is rather lengthy. I can understand merging the 1-4th Hokage pages- They're rather minor at this point, with the exception of the 4th. If you are to merge the 3rd and the 4th, perhaps create a new page called 'The Hokages' and put all of the 1-4th Hokage's information there? Same reasoning as the Sannin's pages.

Again, we don't care about the problems of people using a dial-up connection. Merging Jiraiya or Tsunade would be fine merely because the content of those articles would be easily fit into a list. The Third Hokage is alraedy merged into the List of Konoha ninja page. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 04:09, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Problem Pages

Otogakure's page. It's HUGE. I'd hate to have Dial-up and load that Mother. Suggested Fix: Take out that thing that reads "Snake". Not only is it useless information, it should be in Sasuke's article. Demerge Kabuto's page. He has a potential to maybe recieve characterization because of his DNA mishap with Orochimaru, and because he is going to attempt to kill Sasuke. DO NOT MERGE Orochimaru's page into that page. His article is extremely long. All Hebi members are not technically Oto-nin, and shouldn't be on the Otogakure page. If we were going by birthplace, Orochimaru and Kabuto would be Konoha-nin. They severed their ties with Otogakure when they joined Sasuke. They also have the potential for major character development.

Just by doing that, the Otogakure page would be at a decent length. If you wanted to, you could create another page for the Sound Five and only the Sound Five, although they won't be recieving any new info.

Another thing...The Land of Sound is a debated name. The geographical area (as said by Konoha-nin) is The Land of Rice Fields, and Oto is it's hidden village. But the Oto-nin refer to it as The Land of Sound. Would it be refered to as the Land of Sound or The Land of Rice Fields? Information: http://www.leafninja.com/

Konohagakure's Page- Same problem as Otogakure's page. It's massively long. Suggested Fix: The Hokages are the longest articles there. Giving all four of them their own page is adviseable. Just removing those four articles would bring the page down to a loadable length.

Land of Fire's page- Uh. Why are there Konoha-nin and their clans on this page? Shouldn't they be on the Konoha-nin page? Of course, moving all the clans to the Konoha-nin page would kill it... Perhaps a page for each clan, plus all known members that can be fit onto it without swamping the page?

The Minor Villains page- Same problem as Konohagakure's and Otogakure's pages, but not to the extent of the others. Perhaps move the movie villains to the page of the movie they're from? I haven't found a link to the movies yet because they're not on the footer anymore.

And yet again, we could care less about the problems of those with a dial-up connection. Read WP:SIZE, which is still not binding by any means. For Kabuto's "future" notability, we're not here to speculate on whether he will be notable in the future, but rather on whether he's notable now. He's not. The "Snake" ninja don't deserve a separate article, and belong no where else besides here. Land of Sound is fine since it's the most recent and well known version of the name. List of Konoha ninja is fine by size and readability concerns, and it's not going to be split. Land of Fire has ninja with no defined rank on them. Read the header on List of Konoha ninja. Moving the movie villains to their own movie isn't a bad idea actually. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 04:09, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Why do the characters need their own pages?

There are many reasons the characters need their own pages. Number one is that with the current merges, the pages are simply too long. They take forever to load and even longer to sift through looking for the information you need to find, even with the clicky thing.

Number Two: When each character has their own article, it leads to less screw-ups. With many characters on one page, there is an increased chance of information being put on the wrong character, accidental deletion, and many other errors.

Number Three: It's much easier for each character to have their own article, navigation-wise, assuming that the footer is fixed back to the way it was as well. With the footer that has all the characters on it, all you have to do is scroll down, click and poof! A nice, moderate-sized article pops up in a decent amount of time. Not scroll down, suffer tremendous load-times, and then waste even more time digging through the pages listed to find the character you want to find information on. What's the point besides to make things more complicated?

Number Four: Vandalism is a common problem. With combined pages, vandalism is much more often an occurance.

Why? Simple. Because there is more than one character there, a fan of a certain character will go to that page and go to add information. In the process, however, they notice that their least favorite character is on the same page and that all they'd have to do at that point is type in some vandalism. Therefore, they'd be helping and vandalising in two fell clicks. (Example- Orochimaru-Kimimaro-Kabuto. OroKimi fans often dislike Kabuto. OroKabu fans often dislike Kimimaro. KimiKabu or KabuKimi fans often dislike Orochimaru.)

For the fourth time, we don't care about the Internet problems of our readers. As for your second concern, it's actually easier to manage combined articles since it removes the difficulty of managing vandalism on many different articles. As for three, none of those characters can pass WP:FICT's standard for acquiring their own article - coverage by reliable sources independent of the source material. We have them in lists or not at all. As for your fourth concern, vandalism is less of a problem because it's centered on one page, and thus grants easier management, as well as only one report to WP:RPP. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 04:09, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

The Footer

The Footer (I think that's what it's called, correct me if I'm wrong) is completely screwy. You can't find anything anymore, without having to click through two, three, four pages to find it. And then the pages it does lead to are swamped with so much information you can't even load it if you have dial-up.

Of course, the footer just shows how much has been merged into impossibly long and impractical articles. If there was anyway to revert everything back to the way it was...How long ago now? I would do so in a heart-beat.--68.209.169.2 02:00, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

The footer is relevant to the set of articles you are reading. It takes you one click to get to the other footer anyway. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 04:09, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Using Snapper2's list again, I'm just going to modify it a bit.

Easily mergeable
Can be merged
Unfeasibly mergeable

As you can see, the section where the characters are under "easily mergable" have been merged or about to after discussion, although I don't believe that Itachi Uchiha's page should be merged as he is deemed the catalyst of the plot of Naruto. Omghgomg 11:15, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

It's already pretty good how it is. I just think that, maybe, Rock Lee and Neji could be merged :/ - Access Timeco 01:32, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Furhter edited the list with Itachi's merge. As said, they can be merged, though not suggested. The Sannin could have their own page, and a big page about the Kage (including Sungakure) can be made so we could go in depth about them, especially the 3rd and 4th. Orochimaru is merge-able, as so much of it is abilities that don't need mentioned, and his history can be shortened down, though I rather have him, Jiraiya, and Tsunade merged in one Sannin page should it be decided they get merged. Gaara is largely abilities. Shikamaru, Neji, and Lee have great balances between sections, though they too are mergeable. In the end only Team 7 is a definite keep. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 20:50, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Major characters in Naruto

Tsunade, Jiraiya, Shikamaru, Lee, and Neji would probably fit on a single page if condensed and merged. This might also include already-merged characters, such as the Third Hokage, Kabuto, Zabuza, and Haku, who are placed on pages with significantly less prominent figures (emphasis on Zabuza and Haku). With that out of the way, Kakashi, Sakura, Orochimaru, and Gaara will be the only remaining completely-in-universe single-character articles (The only reason I didn't add Gaara into that list is because of his extensive Personality and Abilities sections). It's quite a stretch to create the major characters article, though, but I think it could be work. You Can't Review Me!!! 22:48, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Merging again? Well regardless, Shikamaru, Lee, and Neji could go into the List of major Naruto Teams with the rest of their teams. The Sannin as I've said before, I don't think they should be merged. But them are where they are I suppose, no problem there.--TheUltimate3 22:58, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
In the event that Akatsuki (Naruto) is not brought up to WP:FICT standards, I've been working on reducing the 10 character lists (this one excluded) to 3; major, minor, and villain. My current major character draft is at 45 kb. Although I might be able to shave off an additional kb or two, I don't think I can make it any shorter. This would create a size issue were additional characters to be added to it, necessitating a split and only restarting us on the road to 10 lists. I could perhaps remedy this problem by moving Chiyo and the Third Hokage to minor characters, though that might just create the same problem (I've yet to see how big that article would be without them). My point is: I'll get back to you on my opinion. *random Nice Guy pose* ~SnapperTo 23:25, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Now I'm confused, what does this have to do with moving the Third and Chiyo-baa? I was under the impression that being in the List of Konoha Nin, and Land of Wind pages pretty much MADE them minor.--TheUltimate3 23:49, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
By that same token, Kankuro and Tsunade are minor as well. Regardless, they are currently included on my draft major character list, and I was pointing out that if necessary they could be moved to my draft minor character list. ~SnapperTo 02:23, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
If necessary. OH. Well currently they are all fine where they are I suppose.--TheUltimate3 02:50, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

How could Itachi lose his article and Lee and Neji keep their? They are nowhere important as he is. They had a one shot importance and was that! Itachi, on the other hand, keeps the story moving far before he even appeared :/ - Access Timeco 19:29, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Lee and Neji's articles are longer than Itachi's was. That is the difference between them. A character's importance within the series is irrelevant in this regard. If you feel you can adequately reduce the both of them to two paragraphs you are welcome to try and merge them as well. ~SnapperTo 21:35, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
I will pass, but thanks! Although I don't agree with Itachi loosing his articles when Lee and Neji keep their, I am inclined to think all the 3 should keep their articles. I will leave the merge party to those wikipedia addicted, they need it. - Access Timeco 22:30, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

But there is no merge tag for the articles that can be merged. Our main discussion now lies with the merge of tailed beasts. σмgнgσмg 10:25, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Hm...ok so the only way to get images back is to create stub articles....

So speaketh Durin. But stub articles are by their very nature, stubs. Usually so small and minute that they must be merged with a main article in which they MAY or MAY NOT have any real connection to. So friends, allies, chums, enemies, whatever else I can use, what do we do? —Preceding unsigned comment added by TheUltimate3 (talk • contribs) 12:51, August 24, 2007 (UTC)

Just bring back Kisame, Deidara, Pein, and Tobi/Madara for the Akatsuki page. They are the only ones that could serve use without controversy. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 20:40, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
However, we're not disrupting Wikipedia to make a point. Itachi Uchiha is already on shaky notability grounds, and the rest of the Akatsuki characters don't come close to that, something that you yourself admitted when arguing for Itachi Uchiha's article retention. Bringing those articles would generate controversy simply because there's hardly anything to write about them that wouldn't be a heavily drawn out and unnecessary discussion. It's not the end of the world that they have no images. Deal with it. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 23:08, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
He isn't planing on disturbing Wikipedia, he's only saying that if we are allowed to use images minimally, we could atleast bring them back for the important ones.--TheUltimate3 23:30, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

RFC

There is currently a discussion here regarding weather or not naruto characters should have there own articles.

Would it make more sense to organize the not-team-7 Konoha ninja by team? Right now the Konoha ninja page is a mishmash of merged and not-merged characters, resulting in a rather inconsistent look. It'd also allow more flexibility in giving some characters more space than others in the team pages. Nifboy 19:17, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
They are organized by team, well the ones we actually know what team they are on anyway. Beyond the members of Konoha 11 and Konohamaru's team (none of which deserve articles) no Konoha nin really needs to be broken up.--TheUltimate3 19:28, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
I mean individual articles, one for Ino-Shika-Cho, one for Team Guy, and Team 8 (with none of their members having individual articles). Admittingly these are not great article titles, but it's more even in terms of organization. Nifboy 20:01, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
That was proposed then thrown out (However there is more chance for it now...who knows). Someone proposed that and the idea was scrapped because it was easier to put Team 10 (Ino-Shika-Cho), Team Guy, an Team 8 in Konoha 11, which was then upgraded to "List of Konoha Ninja Teams". This way (apparently at the cost of images because pics in a "List" makes policy cry) we could keep them all together and have sense kept it better organized.--TheUltimate3 20:35, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Tailed Beasts

The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

The result was do not merge Tailed Beasts into List of Naruto Characters.

There really is no need for an article on it. The main topic can be covered in the main article or somewhere else, and the separate characters can easily fit in where ever you feel like shoving them. TTN 21:45, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure about moving coverage of the main topic to the main article, though I really don't know where else you'd put it. As for the character entires themselves, they are predominately a detailing of the abilities the beast gives its host (which is repeated under the host's entry) and not about the beast itself. Were you to cut that out/condense it there'd be little need for an article on the subject. I'd agree to whatever given that this article is lacking in meaningful content. ~SnapperTo 22:55, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I say no, as it would (for all intensive purposes) gut the info we managed to get of the tailed beasts. No real need to move them, they are prefectly fine where they are.--TheUltimate3 01:24, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

And here I thought the merge craze was over.Damn.I say no on the basis that,aside from Shukaku(maybe) and the nine-tails,they are not technically characters.Lastbetrayal 03:15, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Not to mention the article would be insanely long. - Access Timeco 17:20, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
The ability info needs to be removed or severely trimmed (for example, Shukaku's ability grants can simplify to "gives power over sand to Gaara, for the most part), since it's not about the Bijuu. However, not only are they are the predominant driving force of the series, but they are hardly characters in and of themselves.KrytenKoro 23:39, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Beasts two, three, and four are unmention-worthy. The other two can be placed elsewhere, like here or their host's page. We should find a way to place the info about the beasts in general besides here. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 20:53, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't support it. They aren't neccessarily characters. Also, Akatsuki role is to gather all the tailed beasts. New information is going to be released on them and the 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th tailed beasts. So, after a while and still no information, then merge. But currently, no, not yet. σмgнgσмg 06:32, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Why don't we just improve two articles and get rid of one that will never get improved at this point: put the tailed beasts into List of Naruto characters and put the other info in the Naruto geography and change the latter into on big Naruto universe article? Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 22:05, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Could you rephrase that?Lastbetrayal 22:18, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Ditch the Tailed beasts article, merge it with Naruto geography, re-name it Naruto universe, and add other information there too, like Jutsu, ninja ranks, and general information. I'm beginning to do so here. Put the beasts themselves in List of Naruto characters, and start other improvement on page. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 00:37, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it wise to merge so much into one article. Do that and it gets to long and messed up. Keep Jutsu and Ninja ranks seperate and we would probably have to add some sort description of the Akatsuki there if we don't get the needed sources in a week I guess and we are discussing the Tailed Beasts thing now.--TheUltimate3 00:54, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
No no, it can be done, but we just need to take care to only list extremely mentionable issues and try to keep it as short as possible. But it will be challenging. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 17:06, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes, this is a good idea! Eventually, we may be able to reduce the whole of wikipedia to a single page. Lascoden 03:44, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Also, I checked your sandbox. It has 50 kilobytes. That is too long for an article - also goes against WP:SIZE. σмgнgσмg 08:58, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
what? merge this with list of characters? the tailed beast are not really character themselves save for two i think that have been seen actively participating in the story. for the most part they are being used as tools or cretures within the world. i would ask then should kunai, be listed with characters? should the insects used by bugmasters, or the dolls used by puppt masters also be included within the list of characters? they are special entities and not characters themselves and should NOT be classified as such. if there was some place where special things like the tailed beast fit then i probably owuldn't object, but as it is the tailed beast are something so special and outside of the norm that they can not really be classified as character within the Naruto universe, nor could they just be called tools like a ninjas weapons. i think they fit with their own article. it would be more beneficial to wait and see what happens with them rather than merge them and then have to split them back out. within the tailed beasts article you can show their special part of the story as a whole such as the fact that Akatsuki are looking for them, the reason for this, and possibly new evidence that may be coming soon about how they came to be. as it appears they may be summons and might end up needing to belong with other summoned creatures like Gamabunta, Manda, etc. so i would strongly suggest waiting until they are found out rather than causing excess work by converting them and making the existing list of Naruto characters overly long when they may better belong elsewhere in the long run. shadzar|Talk|contribs 01:52, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Thats it ive had had enough there is no reason that they should be merged. Merging things or shortnening them does not make them more intresting to read. I know it is alright by wiki to shorten and merge but it doesnt make it intresting to read and I dont want the tailed beast to be gone ridicolous. Blanknothingoknaruto 20:39, 18 September 2007 (UTC)Blanknothingoknaruto
So far, the only reasoning people used were "I like it" or "they aren't characters". Although 2-4 certainly aren't, 1 and 9 certainly are, as they are given a backround, voice actors, and personality, and as such they can be put here. The info on 2 can be listed at Yugito's section here. 4 is 100% unmentionworthy, and 3 is for the most part. Also, there are articles that are 50,000 bytes long, including FA-Class articles such as Shadow of the Colossus, so there's no reason that another article shouldn't be 50,000 bytes. Above 60,000 bytes, yes, it should be seperated or shortened, but 50,000 isn't a problem. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 23:25, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
The page is fine. They don't belong broken apart on various pages or other such things, and quite frankly the volume at which this whole lot has been merged is practically insane. Merging is not the answer to everything. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 02:59, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Merging is a solution when a page is beyond improvement, though there are others. Tailed beasts doesn't meet up to standards right now, and I doubt it really can be improved that much. And not only that, Naruto has become an increasingly popular target for merges and deletion lately, so, in case another wave of that comes soon, we'll have to think of ways to still retain the information and satisfy our predators. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 19:54, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


this wont end people are from different states and countries yes so we shoulkd vote on it in seprate discussion title it sounds fair Blanknothingoknaruto 19:05, 25 September 2007 (UTC)Blanknothingoknaruto

The way the Naruto section is going you might as well just merge the whole lot into four sections and be done with it: - an introduction page - the list of story arc page - a character page - a list of media page The way things are going the Naruto section feels it's heading in that direction anyway. Personally, I feel it actually reads worse with all the merging that's gone on - not that I'm against merging, some I've felt have been necessary, it's just that recently it's felt like merge, merge, merge I'm not an editor so perhaps my comments aren't really worth much in this case as it's the editors who are the ones who are going to merge this.

With the exception of articles that have absolutely no future or chance of improvement (Like Media (half of it is voice actors, and the rest can be put elsewhere) or Summons (too many none notable summons and information there)), we should actually consider something besides merging. Naruto is a main character and manga cultural influence in Japan, and as such there's no question he's notable, and Sasuke is also highly popular in the manga and anime universe. Sakura and Kakashi can't really be put elsewhere, so we'll just have to keep them. Shikamaru, Gaara, Tsunade, Jiraiya, and Orochimaru can be merged, but not at all advised, while Neji and Lee are iffy subjects. The rest of the articles other than the failure ones can't be put anywhere else. It's possible we can put geography, ranks, jutsu, and, should we need to, Akatsuki (considering how much of a traget it is to "MERGE MERGE MERGE!" messages) and Tailed beasts can be put in there too. The list of jutsu should have its own topic, but only notable ones that play important roles (Rasengan, the sealing statue jutsu, Chidori, Medical techniques, taijutsu, water jutsu, etc.) rather than every jutsu that exists. I have no satisfaction with the movies articles. Oh, but look at me ramble on. But in any case, some cannot be merged further, despite any complaints made. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 21:41, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

There is one very very simple reason why the tailed beast shouldn't be here. That reason? They are an in universe concept. Concepts should be separated out from characters. - perfectblue 20:03, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

  • it has been over a month. any concensus yet on this merger? shadzar|Talk|contribs 16:32, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Seems to be no merge, but...eh. *Shrugs*Lastbetrayal 21:41, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

I changed Nagato's bio

We don't know if he did become Pein. This is an assumption. Until it is stated that he is Pein, we shouldn't leap to that conclusion. --Vehgah 18:39, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

What happened?

Hello.

I wanted to look at some information about Akamaru. When I clikced the name in "List of Naruto characters" I got into "Land of Fire".. So I looked at the other names, to see if it was a rare case, and saw that Danzo ended in the same place(To be noted, there is nothing else than a description about Land of Fire, not about the people living there).

  • First Kazekage ended at the top of Land of Wind, instead of at the place he was on the list, infact, he wasn't at the list at all...?
  • Fugaku Uchiha ended in Land of Fire, as well.
  • Gamkichi and Gamatatsu end at Gama Family in the list of summons, but not at the place that they are listed. I know it sounds stupid, since everybody know that you can scroll down to the right point, but still...
  • Haimaru Sankyodai also ends in Land of Fire.
  • Hanabi Hyuga ends there as well. So does Hiashi Hyuga and Homura Mitokado.
  • Isaribi ends up in.. guess what?.. Land of Fire...
  • Iwashi Tatami ends up in List of Konoha ninja at the top of the list. But isn't on the list..?
  • Kyodaiji ends at the top of the list of summons. Like Gamakichi and Gamatatsu, it's not a big deal, but since some people might be in doubt who it is - like me, I forgot until I read about it - it'd be a good idea to link it to the right placė.
  • Land of Wind's Daimyo ends in the top of the list of Land of Wind. Like the summons I mentioned right before, can you see him on the list, but you have to scroll down.
  • Mikoto Uchiha ends up at the top of the list called Land of Fire, but it's different from the other, that most the ones I've mentioned ends at. And it's also not the actual list she is described.
  • Second Kazekage ends the same place as First, and alike the First, he isn't on the list (couldn't you just delete them, if you don't know anything about them? It's waste of space to put them on the list, anyway).
  • Three Tails ends up in the Tailed beasts list, but at the top. It's the same problem as the summoms I mentioned.
  • Yugito doesn't lead anywhere. When I click it, it's the same page, and there is no timeglass, or green box at the bottom of the page, saying that it's loading...

And that's what I could find. Sorry for the long at tiring post, and sorry that I didn't change the mistakes myself; since I don't know how to it. I'm not really good at computers...

I hope for some changes - monkey :D

Fixed. Land of Fire had been blanked at the time, so that's why the links to there didn't work. ~SnapperTo 21:32, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't Kaiza be under the Lave of Waves villagers section? 211.31.37.193 11:38, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

No because he wasn't born there. It was just his affliation. σмgнgσмg 12:49, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Affliation is enough of a reason, Kimimaro is NOT listed under the Land of Water just because his clan originated there. Especially since Kaiza is related to the people in the Land of Waves.211.31.37.193 11:55, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
The reason why Kimimaro is not under the Land of Water is because he was one of Orochimaru's subordinates - he served Orochimaru. Also, he was part of the Sound Five whose section was in the Land of Sound. σмgнgσмg 12:04, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
And is Kaiza not like a spiritual leader of the villagers in the Land of Waves? Just because "he's not born there" is not a reason. His birthplace really doesnt matter, I mean, are all people affilated with their ninja clan/village born within that clan/village? It's just very odd to keep him as a "miscellaneous character" when he should be under the same section as the other villagers.211.31.37.193 13:56, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

The List of minor allies in Naruto page is for allies and allies only. There was never a time when Kaiza helped Naruto. He is not an ally, even if he was affiliated to the Land of Waves. All he is is a dead memory. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 17:30, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

The article is called "Allies in Naruto", not "Allies to Naruto". Kaiza is an ally of an ally, making him an ally to the second degree. Putting him in a different article than the rest of his "family" for some minor technicality is ridiculous. ~SnapperTo 19:36, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Naruto's mother is in the exact same situation, she was an ally of Konoha, yet we don't list her in either articles. Kaiza is no different, all he is is a past memory. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 19:50, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Then move her too; being a past or present ally is irrelevant. ~SnapperTo 21:18, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Is there a need for the two "minor" lists?

Most of the space is taken up by characters that appear in very few episodes. There is really no need to give undue weight to them when they can either be summed up very quickly or just not even mentioned (letting the episode summaries describe them would be fine). In the very least, each minor arc should be cut down to one or two paragraphs, and one episode and movie characters should just redirect to their episode/movie. TTN 19:48, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I meant to bring this up at an earlier date, but was busy. There is really no reason that we need to give an extraordinary amount of coverage to characters that appear in one or two episodes, and even those in a single arc. Condensing them by arc or a similar method would be preferable. At our current juncture, the information on the characters is giant jumble of in-universe cruft. Even List of characters in Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance, which is very in-universe by nature, would be a preferable choice. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 20:03, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Reorganizing, projections, and other stuff

Given that we now have two character GAs (Sasuke Uchiha and Sakura Haruno), I think we can begin to seriously assess what we want to do with the character section here, especially considering that it's within our reach to turn this into a rather nice model for other anime character articles. Of the remaining character articles, I can feasibly see the following acquiring GA status after a bit of work:

Another possible one is Shikamaru Nara, but I'm irked by the fact that there's no real conception information (plenty of reception to drag up though). As such, proper referencing for the plot, abilities, and related sections would be nice, in addition to further condensing the in-universe content. The rest are more difficult. I can possibly see Orochimaru (Naruto) becoming a GA (fair amount of reception, about as much as Shikamaru), but the rest fall on the wayside. I was about to rewrite Jiraiya (Naruto), but found an utterly dismal amount of reception information. As it stands, Jiraiya (Naruto) and Tsunade (Naruto) should probably be merged. This is more so a result of neither character being featured early in the anime or manga (Chunin Exam arc people backwards tend to be much easier, it would be easier to write an article on Ino for instance) and reviews being very sparse from that point forward (yes IGN has episode reviews, but they rarely, if ever, give significant commentary that can constitute a reception section). As follows, Akatsuki (Naruto) should probably be merged into List of Naruto villains due to the same problem, as you can't carry the whole article on Itachi's and Kisame's highly limited reception (quite sparse for the former, practically nonexistent for the latter). Certainly, if such reception can be pulled for any of my recommended merges, then go ahead, but present your case before starting an edit war over the matter. Recall that blogs, fan sites, and other unreliable sources don't work.

Anyhow, onto a rather more pleasing subject: the character lists. I feel List of major Naruto characters has a big WP:NPOV problem in terms of the article being arbitrary in who we determine as "major" (minor tends to be easier, as tertiary characters can be easily identified, but the gray area past that creates the POV problem). Merging back into List of Naruto characters seems suitable. Now, before length becomes a complaint, see Characters of Final Fantasy XII, Characters of Kingdom Hearts, and Characters of Final Fantasy VIII, which stretch on pretty damn long. See my sandbox for a skeleton of what the page will look like. It follows the format set by Characters of Kingdom Hearts (which has a rather large cast as well). Furthermore, with out-of-universe tidbits on practically every major character (tertiary and minor characters aren't expected to have out-of-universe details, reality of the situation), the character sections can't be hit for being entirely in-universe, and we have rather substantive conception and reception sections (far, far, far easier to find reception on the characters in general instead of specific characters). See Characters of Kingdom Hearts, List of characters in Castlevania: Sorrow series, or Characters of Final Fantasy VIII for what it eventually would like. From there, a featured list nomination is feasible (I know I'm sounding optimistic, but it actually can be done, although the workload to create it will be rather steep). Merging List of Naruto villains and List of minor Naruto characters may be suitable also. In any case, thoughts, discussion, decision building, let's go. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 09:09, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with your merge proposal, but the only problem is WP:SIZE, where merging the entire list would be too long. I think we should merge the information from List of minor Naruto characters into List of Naruto characters and place their information below. But proposing that, I can see that there will be problems.
As for Tsunade (Naruto) and Jiraiya (Naruto), they should be merged into the List of major Naruto characters and be given a new section, Team Sarutobi. I don't know, it seems to be a plausible idea. These are my ideas, let's see what other people think. σмgнgσмg(talk) 11:08, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
My fan-stincts flare up at the thought of merging Tsunade and Jiraiya; I realize they can't support themselves, but I weep at the thought of summarizing them in two paragraphs or less. As such, I shall rely solely on the judgment of others in regards to their fate.
As to the lists, it seems odd to return the "major" characters to this list while minor sit by their lonesomes; it's a reverse of what is normally done. Instead, seeing as maybe half of the characters at List of minor Naruto characters could be removed entirely, combine major and minor into something like List of Naruto protagonists, or simply this article. Going on to merge villains here would create an insanely large article, especially once Akatsuki joins the mix and references are actually added. Two Naruto character lists, as opposed to the current four, is the least that could feasibly be done. ~SnapperTo 04:48, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Again, my merge suggestions aren't absolute. They're the ones lying on the edge, and can stay for the moment if necessary. Anyhow, I think excising some of the minor characters and merging might be good. See how Characters of Kingdom Hearts (a bucket load of minor characters) treats it. Due to the size constraints, retaining List of Naruto villains might be suitable. Oh, and if any conception information can be dug out for Rock Lee, an article can be feasibly created, as there's quite a bit of reception information. Cheers, Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 05:05, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm sure there's a number of sources for his Bruce Lee qualities. That's the only conception-related information I'm aware of. ~SnapperTo 20:30, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

My proposal: (bolded are those that I can see make or already are GA quality with what we already know is currently available to say out-of-universe wise)

Keep
In the middle
Merge

If Jiraiya and Tsunade do get merged, then to the major characters page, and without making a new section just for them.

As for the character lists, then the only number I can see will be three: this one right here, List of Naruto protagonists, and List of Naruto antagonists/List of Naruto villains (name doesn't concern me very much). Merging them all here on one list will be a hassle as things currently are. Instead, unless we remove a big load of characters, then just make hero and villain lists. As for neutral ones, like Kushina, put them under the side that best fits them (Kushina to hero, for example). Should we remove characters, then I suggest that we remove the following. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares (talk) 20:15, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Agreed on Raiga and Matsuri (no need to mention filler characters), Hanzo (he's mentioned on the Sanni's pages and in Pain's bio, which is his only real significance), Mizuki (only appeared in the first chapter and a filler arc), and the Three Tails, Two Tails, Yugito and Yura (all very minor characters). I think the other characters are at least notable enough to have a small bio, however.Kuwabaratheman (talk) 01:11, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Some time ago I added a bit of an early of Jiraiya but it was a bit improvised since I dont know japanese. Can somebody who knows japanese read [1] and check if there is more info to add more?

About Shikamaru, shouldnt there be information about he in the Uzumaki Artbook? I would like to check it but they dont sell it in my country Tintor2 (talk) 14:04, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I was wandering, but when will we stop working our way around it and finally start working on the series' protagonist's article again? Artist Formerly Known As Whocares (talk) 19:23, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
I'll get to it at some juncture. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 22:06, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Yes that article needs to be expanded its in-universe info a bit and the the out-of needs to be organized. But, what about the copyedit problem? I made a request at the league of copyeditors but it will take too much time. If we get some experienced user to do that I can delete the request without problemsTintor2 (talk) 23:06, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
The copy-edit request is largely unnecessary. The only sections that really need fixing are the lead, "appearances in other media," and "reception" sections, which I can do. And really, a WP:LOCE request is only necessary when shooting for FA (fulfilling criterion 1a) - getting a copy-edit for GA is massive overkill. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 03:49, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Why do we put in stuff from the fillers?

I've noticed that a lot of the pages base personalities and techniques off of the fillers, like with the Hinata one it says that she created this technique, and it says she can do moves like 64 palms. In cannon, the manga, she can't, so I don't think we should put that there, or at least say "In the fillers," Instead of "In the anime," because people think by anime it means the manga converted to anime. Ally1313 (talk) 22:48, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Own Article

What happened to most of the characters having their own articles with pictures, special ninjutsu , and their role in Shippuden. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.22.59.91 (talk) 04:00, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

The short? They had to be merged. The jutsu lists were mostly cruft and had to go, and their roles in Part II were plot and had gotten rid of.--TheUltimate3 04:37, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Why did they get rid of them? Ally1313 (talk) 22:43, 5 April 2008 (UTC)