Talk:List of Mexican Jews
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[edit] Pancho Villa?
Hmmm... kind of uncertain, isn't it? –Hajor 22:46, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
- Yes, indeed. His Austrian Jewish origin in a hypothesis. --Vizcarra 22:50, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
OK. Remove him or reword as "possible Jewish paternal grandfather", or something? –Hajor
- Either or. --Vizcarra 23:03, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
Adiós, mi general. –Hajor 23:14, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Title?
Could this be "Prominent Mexican Jews" or something else? I get nervous when people start keeping lists of Jews. Thanks. (unsigned on 18:43, 27 October 2005 by Davke)
- All lists are named "List of ___ Jews". "Prominent" is not necessary, since no non-prominent person should be included anywhere in wikipedia. --Vizcarra 03:48, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] DUBIOUS ENTRIES
Julio Frenk, the Garzas, Jorge Castañeda, Tito Fuentes.... not Jewish. Castañeda went out with Adela Micha, but he never converted.
- As far as i know Julio Frenk is Jew. In case of Jorge Castañeda I'm not sure whether he profess Judaism or not but at least I know that he has a jewish mother. The Garza Sadas may have some jewish ancestor (I dont know who?) but im sure that they dont profess Judaism. I will put Julio Frenk back to the list. I recommend you to sign your edits and to read article Who is a Jew?, there is a big discussion on this matter. --Abögarp 20:19, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, but you are wrong, my friend ABOGARP. Neither Frenk, nor Castañeda, nor the Garzas... are Jewish, neither by matrilineal nor by patrilineal descent. Of course, some of these people might have Jewish roots going back 3 or more generations... and
I am well aware of the debate for determining Jewishness.... I do not mean to enter a discussion here, but I think we should limit ourselves to people who:
a)have a proven Jewish mother (and I'll concede with having a Jewish father, in case the mother is not Jewish) b)self-identify as Jewish c)the Mexican Jewish Community recognizes them as such.
And neither Julio Frenk, nor Castañeda, nor Fuentes, nos the Garza family fulfill any of these criteria.
The reason why I became upset in the first place is because Vizcarra seems to consider himself the owner of this entry... I tried to add a known Mexican jewish intellectual (a true encyclopedist, a speaker in many cultural forums, Mr. Elias Jassan), and he deleted my entry, calling it "nonsense"... just because he does not know Mr. Jassan.
So, I was trying to defend my entry, by pointing out that the list of "prominent" Mexican Jews is faulty, inasmuch as it has non-Jewish members, and by including such "non prominent" members as Ivonne Saed.
I do not know how to sign my username here, I suppose I should look into this, but my name is SALOMON SHEIN, and I am a civil engineer living in Mexico City.
--Shein 99 21:07, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
- You can sign by typing: --~~~~ If you Google "Elías Jassan" on Google " you get 100 unique entries many of which talk about someone from Argentina with that name. If we remove "Argentina" from the result we get 71 results. Jassan is clearly non-prominent. I am sorry for doubting of your contributions but your first edits of today resulted in the continuous removel of information, including sources for the article, the "see also" section and the Category:Incomplete lists. --Vizcarra 21:08, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
The Google search notwithstanding, Mr. Jassan should indeed stay on the list. It's one of those things that you must know by living in Mexico City. I can point out at least 10 other members who in my view are not prominent... but I do not have the time now the inclination to go down that road. I suggest you respect my contributions (i will keep them serious and sustainable) and I will respect yours. --Shein 99 21:12, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
- Under the edit window you will see a remark that says "Content must not violate any copyright and must be verifiable. You agree to license your contributions under the GFDL. " Your addition is not Verifiable. The Google test fails if you don't provide the source to support your contribution somebody will keep removing it, just as you removed those you didn't not agree with being on the list. --Vizcarra 21:16, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Mariana Levi
How come Mariana Levi is not on this list.?
Maybe because she was not a prominent mexican jew, i guess.
She wasnt Jewish and practiced catholicism from born, her father Gerardo Levy is jewish but Talina Fernandez is Catholic, even she received a Catholic Funeral. So shes not jewish but deserves to appear in the list ??? there are some very secularized jews on the list... oh and sorry im not logged in but my username is faridsaavedra i make some contributions to this article recently
- The de facto consensus among "lists" of Jewish people on wikipedia is to include persons who have a significant degree of Jewish ancestry, even if they are not practicing Jews. My personal preference would be to divide each list into two sub-lists, one for persons publicly self-identified as Jews, and the other for individuals of known Jewish ancestry, but that doesn't appear to be the consensus view. For now, this list - and others like it - list just about anybody who has some claim - religious, cultural, national, or ancestral - to some semblance of Jewishness. Perhaps when the lists get longer, we might be able to reassess the matter. Who is a Jew? is a good article to start with. David Cannon 22:44, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- No, there is only one way to do X-American lists, and that is the way it is done in almost all X-American lists now (i.e. see List of French Americans for an example). It is completely irrelevant what your, mine or anyone else's definition of X-American, including Jews, is. If you have a source that says "Person X is Jewish", that is how we list them, regardless of whether their mother, father, etc. was Jewish. If you have a source that just says "Person X has Jewish father", they should not be listed at all until you have a source that says the person themselves is Jewish, regardless of the criteria that reliable source uses. This list, like many others, needs to be so sourced in accordace with WP:NOR and WP:V. Mad Jack 22:57, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Frida Kahlo
Was not Jewish, and neither was her father. Apparently she made it up that her father was Jewish. [1] 24.141.147.6 06:27, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Sources ?
There's not so much online sources of who is jewish on mexico because not so much jewish mexicans like to recognize on a mainstream level they are jewish, it is very difficult to find online sources on spanish and virtualy impossible to find any on english, could we use online sources on spanish ???
There are many, many people here who are not Jewish, neither by matrilineal descent, nor by conversion (some not even by patrilineal descent)... So I have deleted them. Also, some entries are completely trivial.... such as Jacobo Jassan, the victim of the tsunami, or his wife, who has now moved on with her life, and despite her tragedy, she is not a kewy figure nor a famous Jew. Also, some entries are absolutely ridiculous, such as Sergio Skvirsky being a philosopher, and such.
Susana Moscatel is jewish, she constantly talk about of it
Daniel Vazquez Habif is jewish, he is cousin on a second degree of a jewish friend of mine so i could confirm it, but not with online sources, he even have at least five fan clubs and constantly appears on succesful tv dramas so hes jew, hes famous , he deserve to appear
I could remember Hector Aguilar Camil confirming he and Dehesea were jewish but cannot find an online source so i have my reservations with aguilar camin but not with dehesa who even was jury on the international jewish film festival of mexico city
Fey (Fernanda Blasquez Gil) is Jewish, i know some of her uncles and they are jewish, a friend of mine its a very close friend of mauri stern and even remixed a fey single, he confirmed it to me
Hugo Hiriart its jewish he is married with the film director Guita Schyfter and wrote the screenplay of the movie novia que te vea the first mexican jewish themed film, based on the novel by rosa nissan
I put the Zaga Family coz theres not only one single person on that family controlling all the capital and companys they own, they are one of the most important mexican jewish familys along with the Sacal, Saba, Schwartzman, Fastlicht, etc.
Faridsaavedra 02:51, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
== These jew lists are great! ==
I notice there are no lists for members of any other races/religions. If someone wants to finish off the few remaining jews they just need to see Wikipedia and go through all the jew lists.
- Are you kidding about there being no other lists? Start with Template:Americans, there's a list for just about any ethnicity you can think of. Mad Jack 03:43, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Someone really needs to patrol this list, someone who is Mexican and/or lives in Mexico, and someone who is Jewish and/or knows the Jewish Community from within or up-close. I have just removed many entries, given that they are: a) not Jewish by matrilineal nor patrilineal nor conversion, b)do not consider themselves Jewish, c)are not "prominent" by any means, or c)are completely unknown and therefore unsubstantiated in their merit to appear.
By the way, I am Mexican, was born in Mexico City, and have lived here all my life, and I am also an active member of the Jewish Community, as well as an active monitor of cultural and political issues in Mexico and in the Community.
Whos agree with our anonymous user changes ? we have 2 options a)protect the article agains vandalism or b) revet the article to an anterior revision every time he decides to edit our contributions without ask or argue why hes deleting each entry
By example The Dj's, those guys sell records were no other mexican performer sold before, those guys perform for crowds of 15,000 - 20,000 people at brazil, germany, mexico and israel didnt they are notable ??? If you look at the list of Israel Jews theres an apart for the notable israeli criminals, jacobo tagle dobin is jewish and mexican, hes notable why he didnt deserve to be in the list ??? Isaac Saba Raffoul deleted !!! no way ! so what we do ???
Im sorry if im beign rude, thats no my porpose if you want to keep editing the article make what you think is better at least im just a chilean jew living in mexico and you must knew ten tons of things i didnt, but please discuss the changes before make them bro, i promise ill going to ask you before make any new entry to the article =) as the mexican people says: sale carnal ???
Emilio Azcarraga and Christian castro are not Jewish. They have NOT converted, despite what some tabloid media have suggested. Neither has the Jewish Community acknowledged them as converts, nor have they ever said on record that they were converted.
Yeah when Emilio married Sharon he attended to some reunions with rabis, but left the idea of get converted soon
and Christian Castro... maybe he get converted, maybe no, who knows...?
So untill someone could proof that, he couldnt be part of this list Faridsaavedra 07:05, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
NOTABILITY
These people are not notabl.e William Landau, M.D alraedy had an article and it was deleted for not being notably BUT HE IS STILL ON THE LIST
[edit] Notable? Jewish?
The following names need to be confirmed for notability and Jewishness. Those that remain unsourced in one week will be moved to this talk page until this is done.
- Ezequiel Farca, prominent industrial furniture designer
- Alejandro Guillot Schiaffino, engineer, General Director of the National Polytechnic Institute IPN from 1950 to 1959
- Simon Hamui, industrial designer
- Ing. Kalmen Landau, chemical engineer
- Alberto Kalach, architect
- José Picciotto Cherem, architect
- Samuel and Jaime Venguer, father and son architects in Mexico City
- Luis Perelman, famous sexologist
- Rina Riesenfeld, famous sexologist
- Elias Turquie Minian, notable otorhinolaryngologist
- Bernardo Tanur, Internist, Gastroenterologist
- Deborah Dultzin-Hacyan, astrophysicis
- Mauricio Fortes, physicist
- Gloria Koenigsberger, astrophysicist
- Raquel Druker Szniger, writer, historian, cathedratic of the Ibero-American University Universidad Iberoamericana
- Shulamit Goldsmit Brindis, historian, cathedratic of the Ibero-American University Universidad Iberoamericana
- Andrés Roemer Slomianski, politics analyst
- Ilán Semo Groman, historian, journalist, politics analyst
- Monica Unikel Fasja, historian, specialist on the early days of the Mexican Jewish community
- Leo Zuckermann Behar, politics analyst
Usedup 04:38, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Its very easy to confirm the notability on any of those persons but jewishness its not a popular threat in the Mexican society so there's not any online sources of some of them. what we do ? Faridsaavedra 15:47, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- We'd have to find a Mexican magazine or newspaper or something that says it. How did the person that added them to this list find out they were Jewish? Usedup 06:33, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
There's no need to rely on an online source - any reputable printed source should do.--20.138.246.89 12:27, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] notability
Using the approved google test
- Ezequiel Farca, 10,900 results
- Got 13,100
- Alejandro Guillot Schiaffino, 39 results (he lived on the first half of the 20 century) obviously a general director of IPN its notable
- Not necessarily. These, http://www.mexicomaxico.org/IPN/CronoIPNa.htm, other people don't have articles. Usedup 08:38, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
- Simon Hamui, 43 results
- Got 44
- Kalmen Landau, 0 results
- Alberto Kalach Kichic, 15,700 results
- 5 if you include all three names, 0 if just first and last.
Alberto Kalach projected the greatest cultural project of president Vicente Fox administration the Macro-Library Jose Vasconcelos that surely makes him notable, im pretty sure theres not more than 2 persons in Mexico with the name Alberto Kalach.
- If that is true, he is notable, but he doesn't ring up many hits. Usedup 08:38, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
- José Picciotto Cherem, 143 results
- 24 for three names
- Samuel and Jaime Venguer, Samuel 25 results, Jaime 0 rsults
- Luis Perelman, 1,220 results
- Got 1230
Luis Perelman works in a high administrative charge on the Israeli Tribune of Mexico, you cannot access to a charge like that not beign jewish, i just need to source the Israeli Tribune directory to make this entry valid isnt ?
- Yup, he would make the first good addition. Usedup 08:38, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
- Rina Riesenfeld, 132 results
- Got 128
- Elias Turquie Minian, 15 results
- Got 20
- Bernardo Tanur Tatz, 101 results
- Got 45
- Deborah Dultzin Hacyan, 1,100 results
- Got 332
- Mauricio Fortes, 712 results
- Got 716
- Gloria Koenigsberg, 17 results
- Raquel Druker Szniger, 56 results and 5 more as Raquel Drucker
- Shulamit Goldsmit Brindis, 335 results and 16 more as Shulamit Goldsmith
Raquel Druker and Shulamit Goldsmit are the most important professors of the Judaic Studies section of the History department of the Ibero American University, the second most important apartment in Judaic Studies just before the Hebraic University in Mexico. If i source the directory that could be a valid entry ?
- Just out of curiousity, why are Judaic Studies professors notable? Simply being a relatively popular professor doesn't make you notable. If it did, can you imagine how big the wikipedia database would get? www.ratemyprofessors.com would have a field day. Usedup 08:38, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
- Andrés Roemer Slomianski, 1,030 results
- Only Got 35
Andrés Roemer is a very famous TV Host in Mexico
- Can you back that up? If so, he's notable. Usedup 08:38, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
- Ilán Semo Groman, 508 results
- Got 26
Ilan Semo constantly appears as expert in political issues in several journals, magazines and tv shows in Mexico, hes also an important History professor in the Ibero american University
- Being an intellectual doesn't confirm notability. Few well-read journalists of the New York Times have wikipedia articles. Usedup 08:38, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
- Monica Unikel Fasja, 29 results and 11 more as Monica Unikel-Fasja
- Leo Zuckermann Behar, 1,340 results
- Got 1,400
Faridsaavedra 16:17, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Showed differences when I did the google test. Many of these results are either bibliographies or University staff pages (ie: http://www.astroscu.unam.mx/gente/Pag_Pers_Investigadores/DeboraDultizin/PageDeboraD.html). A significant portion are also wiki mirrors. Usedup 06:33, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, then we just need to source the Jewishness Faridsaavedra 15:19, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
