Talk:List of Irish monarchs

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Contents

[edit] A new article

I'd tweak the introduction though. It should begin - a list of Irish monarchs & only mention the 1801 'merger' with the Kingdom of Great Britain. GoodDay (talk) 18:09, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I dont know how that bit got there. Better now? --Camaeron (talk) 18:14, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Yep, much better. GoodDay (talk) 18:15, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Just wait till the others find this page. Then we're either in for another load of lengthy discussions or another AfD...--Camaeron (talk) 18:44, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
We got List of English monarchs, List of Scottish monarchs, List of British monarchs, therefore we need List of Irish monarchs. GoodDay (talk) 19:02, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
Very true...what about the Welsh? = ) --Camaeron (talk) 19:08, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
Them too. GoodDay (talk) 19:57, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
There was never a unified Welsh state prior to the English takeover. With regard to Ireland, a separate Irish crown was recreated in 1927 that survived until 1949, during which time Ireland was a dominion (see Monarchy in Ireland). So these later kings need to be added at the end of the list. TharkunColl (talk) 00:39, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
I have added the "new" monarchs to a copy of the irish list in my sandbox. The only problem is I dont know how to write the text now. Would you be prepared to do it (I dont mind you editing my sandbox, promise!)? I have left the old text underneath if it is of any help. I have added (((Insert text here))) in the two places where the text needs to appear. Thanks so much! --Camaeron (t/c) 12:39, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
Okay, done it. I also suggest we replace the UK Coat of Arms with the Irish harp. TharkunColl (talk) 13:43, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

A new article? Surely it's a cut and paste (with no indication of the source)? And it's not a very accurate effort, being a cut and paste, since the dates given are reigns as kings of England. Angus McLellan (Talk) 14:47, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Care to state an example and it will be rectified. It is not a cut and paste as it is different from both List of English monarchs and List of British monarchs. There are considerable differences...--Camaeron (t/c) 14:58, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
I disagree about the cut-and-pastiness, but never mind. List of Lords of Ireland already existed. Bad King John, he who attempted to solve the Irish Question by pulling beards, was Lord of Ireland before he was King of England (e.g. Fryde et al, Handbook of British Chronology at 37), which presumably means that his brother Richard, although king of England, was not Lord of Ireland. I don't know whether Henry the Young King was Lord of Ireland or not. Based on the style quoted, rex Anglorum et dux Normannorum et comes Andegavorum (ibid.), he was not. Angus McLellan (Talk) 16:07, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Ladies & Queen consorts of Ireland

Henry VIII's first 4 wives weren't Queen-consorts of Ireland; they were Ladies of Ireland. I'm not certain about Catherine Howard, as I don't know which came first, the Ireland Act or her execution. GoodDay (talk) 15:25, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Her execution if I'm not mistaken..will change it accordingly. Thanks --Camaeron (t/c) 15:27, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
It actually even looks better...--Camaeron (t/c) 15:40, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
Yep, more compact. Which is good for article length. GoodDay (talk) 15:42, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
And correcter. It was incorrect for the other consorts to be listed under the section "Kings and Queens"... --Camaeron (t/c) 15:47, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
That's kinda spooky. My previous posting is at 15:42 (i.e. 1542). GoodDay (talk) 16:00, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
Do you mean ie the crown of ireland act...?--Camaeron (t/c) 16:03, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
Cate's execution & then the Irish crown Act. GoodDay (talk) 16:06, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
  • smacks head* yes of course..am a bit slow today...--Camaeron (t/c) 16:35, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 1922 to 1949

Was the title King/Queen regnant of Ireland seperated from King/Queen regnant of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Ireland? Just curious, people. GoodDay (talk) 20:04, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

How do you mean? There never was a person to be King/Queen of Ireland and not simmultaneously King/Queen of England (or successor states GB/UK). Which is funny really..there never was an Irish King of Ireland. --Camaeron (t/c) 20:54, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Clarifying: George V, Edward VIII & George VI were Monarchs of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland not Monarchs of Great Britain and Ireland. Basically, was Ireland a seperate Kingdom (again) from 1922 to 1949? GoodDay (talk) 21:08, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh I see. Well it's a tricky question really. Even the Irish are confused as to that point of their history. I would say it was..others would argue it wasnt as the Irish also had a President back then. Although legally there is nothing to say one can't have both. It's just most countries that have a monarch call their head of gov. a PM...Hope that helped...--Camaeron (t/c) 19:04, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Sorry I only just saw the heading was a date...otherwise I wouldnt have given you that first (rather confused) answer above! Sorry! --Camaeron (t/c) 19:05, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] High Kings

The later High Kings of Ireland really ought to be in this article. They aren't just other kinglets. Some of them gained international recognition of the title "King of Ireland", and are styled such in correspondence with guys like the Archbishop of Canterbury. For def kings from Brian Boru onwards, and prolly from Máel Sechnaill mac Máele Ruanaid. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 11:24, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to see List of High Kings of Ireland split up. For that reason, I would be more than happy to see kings from Brian mac Cennétig to Ruaidrí Ua Conchobair moved here. As you say, who are we to argue with Lanfranc and Gregory VII and Anselm? As there is no reason at all why people should not appear on two lists (cf. Offa, Ecgberht, etc), kings from the one Máel Sechnaill to the other Máel Sechnaill could be here and elsewhere. Ultimately I'd like to see three lists: this one, an "according to FFE/LGE/AFM" legendary one, and the one in the middle where all the explanation and equivocation is needed. Before we go too much further though, the history of List of Lords of Ireland should be merged into this. Angus McLellan (Talk) 13:20, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Sure, you've no need to ask. As far as I know there arent any "ownership issues" on this page = ). I'd be more than happy to create a list for the high kings also if that is what you wish. The info can be left at the talk page of my sand box...but remember to tell me on my talk page also otherwise I may overlook it. Regards --Cameron (t|p|c) 14:20, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

The following comments copied from User talk:Angusmclellan.

It would make that list unwieldy and there is a natural break-point between native and foreign Monarchs; the High Kings list are all Irish - the "monarchs" are all foreign. In fact, I think an AfD for "monarchs" would be appropriate as all the information contained is already contained in "British Monarch". Sarah777 (talk) 18:09, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Actually, one is a Scot. ;) I don't buy that argument, unless the article is renamed something like "English monarchs of Ireland", which will never happens. Anyways, I smell that you don't like these guys, but just think, if Richard hadn't got that crossbow bolt through the neck when he did, John would prolly be seen today as the progenitor of a glorious dynasty of Irish kings ... I think that's what his daddy Henry had in mind anyways. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 18:57, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
It is just about possible that I utterly detest and loath these monarchs but of course I'd never let that influence my Wiki-editing in the least. No, the Irish/not-Irish divide is much clearer than most things in this life. Striking really. Sarah777 (talk) 00:26, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

End of copied comments. Angus McLellan (Talk) 14:52, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Coat of Arms

I put the Irish harp in the top right but someone put back the royal arms of the UK. Is this really appropriate, as the UK monarchs between 1801 and 1922 are specifically not on this list? The Irish harp has been used since the 12th century and is indeed still used today. TharkunColl (talk) 15:51, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

The coat of arms displayed at the moment is also still in use. To my knowledge the Irish harp (on its own) never was a royal coat of arms. Hence the one displayed atm which is. --Cameron (t|p|c) 16:32, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
I thought the harp was used on coins and things from the time of King John. TharkunColl (talk) 16:35, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Not that I've seen. Edward IV's "Lordship of Ireland" coat of arms was, if you choose to believe the Lordship of Ireland article, three gold crowns on a blue shield (note the expert command of heraldry-speak). Angus McLellan (Talk) 17:42, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Wasn't the harp for Leinster, rather than Ireland? I vaguely recall reading that somewhere, though don't of course take me at my word on that. Anyways, it's discussed here and Coat of arms of Ireland. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 17:47, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Names

Why does the article use Henry VIII of England? Surely after he passed the Crown of Ireland act he became 'of Ireland'? Was he called Henry VIII of Ireland or Henry I or Ireland or neither? Sorry I am rather muddle headed at the moment! --Cameron (t|p|c) 21:24, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

He certainly never used Henry "I". As today, with the Commonwealth realms, the monarchs always take their primary number - that of England. TharkunColl (talk) 23:06, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
The English seals were used for Irish business after the Drogheda parliament of 1494-1495, so Henry VIII would have been Henry VIII [Lydon, Lordship of Ireland, pp. 218–219]. No credence need be lent to the fantastical retcon thought up by the idiots who work for Brenda, repeated by TC above. Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:59, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Retcon has five interwikis and I've never heard of it. Shame on me! Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 00:21, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, perhaps I did not state my question clearly enough: What I mean is: Did Henry ever use the title "Henry VIII of Ireland" and indeed did his successors? Was there an Elizabeth of Ireland, a Mary of Ireland?? --Cameron (t|p|c) 14:54, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
PS: To TC: It is not the English ordinal that is used but the highest English or Scottish...it is only a coincidence that this applies retroactively...--Cameron (t|p|c) 14:54, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
No, it is not a coincidence. It was designed that way. TharkunColl (talk) 17:40, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
For the time being, let's wait & see. GoodDay (talk) 17:54, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me = ). You may be interested in reading List of regnal numerals of future British monarchs. You may find it quite enlightening. You are entitled to your POV but law stipulates that the higher numeral shall be used. --Cameron (t|p|c) 20:01, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
I am fully aware of it thank you, but the law cannot dictate what names monarchs give their children and choose to use. No British monarch has used a name that would give a higher number than the English one since the Glorious Revolution. And in any case it's not a law, it's just a proclamation. It can be changed at any time. TharkunColl (talk) 21:43, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
No, not that I'm aware of. The Nicholas Hilliard design for Elizabeth's Great Seal of Ireland had the usual "England, France and Ireland" stuff. The coinage seems to have had the same legends as elsewhere, either "England, France and Ireland" or "Great Britain, France and Ireland". But that's not proof. No matter how many examples of not doing it I can find, all it needs to knock a hole in the inductive argument is for someone to find just the one example of someone being "King/Queen of Ireland". Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:04, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks Angus...that's very helpful. Just the kind of answer I was looking for. Thanks! It would also explain why Henry VIII of Ireland is not a redirect... --Cameron (t|p|c) 13:47, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Merge?

Hello. Isn't this page unnecessary? There's an existing page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_of_Ireland which has existed for years, whereas this is a new article. The other article has the same information, and is more complete over time. The other page might well be improved with the text & tables from this article, but this one should surely be merged into the other. Wotapalaver (talk) 22:15, 11 May 2008 (UTC)