Talk:Lion-Eating Poet in the Stone Den

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[edit] The shi-shi sound in other languages

LOL! Japanese baby-talk for urine is shi-shi, so the poem sounds like:

Piss, piss, piss.
Piss, piss, piss, piss, piss.
Piss, piss, piss.
Piss, piss, piss, piss, piss.
Piss, piss, piss.
Piss, piss, piss, piss, piss.
Piss, piss, piss.
Piss, piss, piss, piss, piss.

It flows really well, though ;-) --Uncle Ed (El Dunce) 20:41, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Wow, that sounds like whistling in Taiwanese (i.e. "kho·-si-si-á") :)

Surprisingly, Mr Zhao didn't use 屎 (shǐ) (English: shit) in the poem. 203.218.88.254 08:48, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Can Shi Shi mean Mr. Shi?

One anonymous editor changed the English translation of Shī Shì (施氏) to "... a poet whose surname is Shi". That may sound reasonable when looking at the Chinese term in isolation, and many translations do that. However, if that were the case, it will be incorrect to use Shì (氏) as an abbreviation of the main character in the rest of the passage. That will be analogous to use "Mr." as an abbreviation of "Mr. Shi". So in my opinion, Shī Shì (施氏) should be a proper noun, translated into "Shi Shi", not "Mr. Shi". -- Felix Wan 22:01, 2005 Jan 27 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Can Shi Shi mean Mr. Shi?

(氏) can mean "him"/"his" in the latter context. A classic 一字多義 scenerio. By dillee1 14/04/2005

If you can quote a dictionary entry or a passage in Classical Chinese where 氏 means him/his, that will be very helpful. -- Felix Wan 22:22, 2005 Apr 14 (UTC)

氏 can really mean "Mr." in Classical Chinese, just as it is used in modern Japanese. But in this passage, 氏 is the given name of the poet. As in "氏視是十獅" and other sentences. If 氏 is translated into "Mr.", the sentence won't make sense. -A Chinese reader.

But if the author did intend to make up the full name of the character he could have used many other better character than "氏" with the same proununciation. "氏" is a poor choice as a name because it has little meaning, and indeed few people have this as first name. I think the author's intention was to use "氏" to mean "Mr./Ms." so as to make the passage more corformant to the conventional style of short stories in classic style (cf. 聊齋誌異).

氏 must be used as Mr. in 施氏 and as 他 when 施 is omitted in the sentences. Also the last sentence should be translated as:[ and he tried to get rid of this matter] because this sentence can not be regarded as a question since it lacks a question word. Lie-Hap-Po

[edit] Shi Shi IS "A person with the surname (last name) Shi"

The word 氏 can mean "a certain person". 施氏 would therefore be "A certain person with the surname Shi". This applies to both men and women. The reason why the original author did not give a full name could be because he wanted to make 施氏 an ambigious person. 施氏 could be a "he" or a "she", and could be anybody. It would be better just to use the word "Shi" to address 施氏, rather than Mr. Shi or Shi Shi.Atticuslai 07:58, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

施氏 Could only be a Mr.Shi and not be a Mrs.Shi or a Miss Shi because women AREN'T 人 person(s), human being(s). That is, according Chinese and Western standards from Prehistoric Times untill 20th century AD

Um... Actually, 氏 is more often used for "Mrs" (which, I guess supports your point a little bit)... I think the reason why we assume the poet is male is because he(?) likes to eat lions... I think you might be more insulted if we were to all assume that the poet is female? Certainly your view on this matter is a bit extreme, and I'm not really sure why it would be relevant to the article.129.97.236.47 (talk) 05:13, 21 March 2008 (UTC)illluck

[edit] How many characters?

I counted 91 "shi" in the poem as given here. The article say "92", the first external link says "93" while containing 74 only. The second link has 104:

"Shi2 shi4 shi1shi4 Shi1 shi4 shi4 shi1, shi4 shi2 shi2 shi1. Shi4 shi2shi2 shi4 shi4 shi4 shi1. Shi2 shi2, shi4 shi4 shi4, shi4 shi2 shi* shi1 shi4 shi4. Shi4 shi2, shi4 shi4 shi4 shi2 shi1, shi3 shi2 shi2 shi3 shi4, shi3 shi4 shi2 shi1 shi4shi4. Shi4 shi2 shi4 shi2 shi1 shi1 shi4 shi2 shi4. Shi2 shi4 shi1, shi3 shi4 shi4 shi3 shi2 shi4. Shi2 shi4 shi4. Shi4 shi3 shi4 shi2 shi4 shi2 shi1 shi1. Shi2 shi2, shi3 shi4 shi4 shi2 shi* shi1 shi1 shi2 shi2 shi* shi2 shi1 shi1. Shi4 shi2, shi4 shi3 shi4 shi4 shi4shi2. Shi4 shi4 shi4 shi4.”

So, how many? `'mikka (t) 23:26, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

That depends on the characters you use.

You can add or take many characters if you like.

There are also many Shi stories that do not use story of the lion eating poet and there are also stories that uses other sounds, so you have many zhi zhi zhi, xi xi xi or ji ji ji stories etc.Lie-Hap-Po

How many distinct characters? —Tamfang 23:58, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

yeah, I counted 91 characters in total (not including the title), and 33 distinct characters Chunlong (talk) 12:30, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Copyright of passage

The text of passage technically is still copyrighted, since the original author is known and the copyright is still in effect (author life plus 50 years - author died in 1982) SYSS Mouse 14:15, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Those are US copyright laws, right? Or is it the same in China? bCube.talk(contribs); 23:05, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

China copyright law is the same. Author life plus 50 years. Yao Ziyuan 23:49, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comments on Shi by Lie-Hap-Po 21:41, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

1. Is poet 施 male or female?

Unless context says otherwise, all persons in Classical Chinese texts are male.

2. 氏 can be a given name

氏 can mean 姓

氏 can mean 先生

3. What does 施氏 mean?

施氏 means 施先生 and when 氏 stands alone 氏 means 他.

4. Why is that?

A given name can not stand by itself in classical text and can only be used together with a surname and a title.

氏 does not mean 姓 in this text because 氏 is also used on its own in this text.

5. Can 试释是事 mean Try to explain this?

No 试释是事 means And he tried to get rid of this matter.

6. Why is that?

释 can mean to explain and to get rid of and the first is much more common than the second one, but since the sentence lacks a question particle or command particle, and given the fact that Classical Chinese texts normally does not talk to the reader directly, you cannot use 释 in the meaning to explain.

The Shi story is an artificial text, even by the standard of Classical Chinese and although it is fun, students should spend their time on learning Putonghua and not to spend to much time on learning Classical Chinese

As the commentary indicates, a plausible interpretation is that the Shi poem reveals the limitations of romanization. Incidentally, why is it that PRC folks are always interested in telling other people what to do? Huangdi (talk) 09:12, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Changing the Lion Eating Poet back as it was

Is there a copyright on Zhao Yuanren's Lion Eating Poet?

Was there such a thing as copyright at the time Zhao Yuanren wrote Lion Eating Poet?

Is it really created by him or has he learned it from an another person?

Has Zhao Yuanren used Lion Eating Poet in his own copyrighted works or did he published it in copyrighted works from others

If there is a copyright on Lion Eating Poet then who has the rights?

What is to be done to all the published material that uses Lion Eating Poet as an Example?

Untill these questions and many others are answered, I regard Lion Eating Poet as P.D. Public Domain.Lie-Hap-Po 20:47, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] other chinese languages

In all fairness, in many if not most Chinese "dialects", and I'll single out Cantonese and Kejia, much more of this poem would be comprehensible. Not only that, but these dialects, since not subjected to political correction, reflect a much older pronunciation system than does Mandarin.<spetz>.72.76.248.151 22:46, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Obviously, this poem was written with only characters that would be pronounced with the same syllable (including different tones) in only one particular spoken dialect/language. The effect is lost if read out in a different dialect/language, whether it is comprehensible or not is not the point. The same would happen to other dialects/languages, eg if a different poem is composed in characters that have same syllable (including different tones) in Cantonese, but read out in Shanghaiese, Kejia (Hakka) etc.

While it is true many southern dialects have retain certain consonant endings from older varieties of Chinese, this does not mean they are more similar to older varieties of Chinese. All modern varieties of Chinese are different from older varieties of Chinese, and it has absolutely nothing to do with "political correction". Is this somehow related to the mistaken idea that northern dialects have been "corrupted" by Mongolian or Manchu languages, and only "pure" Chinese language and culture is retained in southern China? LDHan 09:24, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

No, I didn't mean it like that at all. I meant "political correction" in a sterile sense, that the pronunciation is strictly controlled on a national level. I wasn't skirting the issue; nobody today really knows what classical Chinese sounded like, so who knows if this would be comprehensible if read aloud?

I brought this up for two really benign issues. The first is merely that of interest. Someone who doesn't know any Chinese reading this might find it interesting but misleading. Some awareness of other dialects' pronunciations might provide some insight into how Chinese works.

The second is that, while this vocabulary may be outdated, the fact that it is survived by old texts interprable by scholars, the fact is that most of this vocabulary isn't phased out in much of China. Mandarin's pruned out some of this, so you'd never find the sentence about poet Shi eating lion phrased like this there. But in other dialects it's an acceptable sentence. Except for the 氏, which I imagine noone uses.

I do understand that the purpose of the poem is to demonstrate that 官语 was meant to facilitate reading and understanding quickly, and was never either a proper spoken nor a natural language.

.<spetz>.72.76.248.151 03:52, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Lion Eating Poet text is not a Chinese text at all. All Chinese languages, Acient or Modern , have grammar words. This text has none. For example the last sentence: Try to explain this matter? is a question so the particle ma in modern chinese or in hū in classical chinese is needed to change the sentence into a question.Lie-Hap-Po 09:40, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't see any question there.88.101.76.122 20:02, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think he understands it's a poem, different grammar applies. Huangdi (talk) 09:14, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Is this "Ten Stone Lions" ?

Is this the famous poem I heard was called "Ten Stone Lions"? If so, lovely, and I'll create a redirect. Shenme 20:31, 25 April 2007 (UTC)