Talk:Lehi(group)/archive1

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Revisionist denial seems to be going on here

I'm no expert, but the statement been added here today looks a lot like WP:OR and revisionist denial:

However, fascist principles do not appear in the Principles of Birth (above) which is the organization's "charter". Moreover, the founder of the group, Yair Stern, was a known anti-fascist. While he studied in Italy he explained that they must not come close to Fascist Italy, despite any interest temptations, because it would be wrong and unacceptable. He refused to join the Fascist student association that foreign students were invited to, in spite of the fact that those joined were given serious reductions in tuition.

The leader of a group that bombed the Mandate administration of Palestine (even while it was fighting Hitler, before D-Day) should not be defended in it's (literally) criminal behaviour in this misleading and insubstantial fashion. The reference could be WP:RS but it's not saying what the edit claims he's saying.

PalestineRemembered 21:54, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, he's not being defended for the activities, but simply for the fact he was not fascist. You can be a "terrorist" but still not a fascist. This sentence wasn't added today, it was blanked. Please take your misgivings about Lehi elsewhere. Amoruso 07:31, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Personally I'm not convinced that Stern was a fascist. If there is a reliable source that defends him of that charge, we can quote it. The issue here is over using a novel as a source, which obviously cannot be allowed. It is clear enough from this quotation why using fictional sources is so dangerous. It is complete nonsense to say that Stern believed that "they must not come close to Fascist Italy", since Stern's multiple attempts to ingratiate himself with the Italians and obtain their support are well documented. That was not because Stern was a fascist himself, but because he would have accepted aid from devil himself if it was offered. --Zero^talk 12:58, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually the coming close to fascist italy thing was fake and a hoax, but it's true like you said he would have accepted it because of mutual interest, but not on the ideological level which is what the quote said. The biography is not fiction. It says so in the book itself , it's based on the Lehi members memoirs, the thesis work by Eda Amichal in Bargman which is a comprehsnvie biography of Yair and more. In essense, the book is a secondary source which is also allowed on wikipedia, and not fiction of course like explained already. Amoruso 10:47, 16 November 2006 (UTC) Since it's a secondary source btw, I might quote directly from Amichal when I get to it. At the maximum, verfibality tag can be added (although not necessary), not blanking. Cheers. Amoruso 13:11, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I advise you to read the policy: WP:V "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Sources should be appropriate to the claims made: exceptional claims require stronger sources.... English-language sources should be given whenever possible, and should always be used in preference to foreign-language sources, so that readers can easily verify that the source material has been used correctly... In general, sources of dubious reliability are sources with a poor reputation for fact-checking or with no fact-checking facilities or editorial oversight. Sources of dubious reliability should only be used in articles about themselves." Cleary, the works in question by Katz and Shamir do not qualify. The former is a unreliable work by a Revisionist propagandist; the latter is a foreign language novel. --Ian Pitchford 15:05, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the first is the reliable scholarly appreciated work by historian Shmuel Katz, an excellent reference, the other a comprehensive biography of Yair quoting from secondary sources which are very reliable. Amoruso 18:53, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I've yet to see anything by Katz that looks like a WP:RS. All I see is material such as this, ahistorical and frankly nasty United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East: Katz, Shmuel (1973) Battleground: Fact and Fantasy in Palestine , p.36 ISBN 0933503032 "....... The economic interest of the individual Arab in the perpetuation of the refugee problem and of his free keep is backed by the accumulating vested interest of UNRWA itself to keep itself in being and to expand. The United Nations Relief and Works Agency is thought of as some Olympian, philanthropic body directed and operated by a band of dedicated humanitarians, devoted exclusively to the task of helping suffering refugees. The fact is that the organisation consists of some 11,000 officials of whom all but a handful are Arabs who are themselves inscribed on the rolls as "refugees." They perform the field work; they, that is, hand out the relief. The remaining handful consists of some 120 Americans and Europeans who man the organisation’s central offices. Since UNRWA itself is thus a source of livelihood for some 50,000 people, no one connected with it has the slightest interest in seeing its task end or in protesting the fraud and deception it has perpetuated for over twenty years. The myth continues to live and to thrive, feeding on itself."

PalestineRemembered 20:04, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

UNRWA itself has admitted, and documented, the fact that refugee counts are inflated, for precisely the reasons Katz has suggested - there is economic benefit to being listed as a refugee, to hiding the fact that a refugee member of your family has died etc... It is quot epointless to dispute things Katz has claimed in this regard, when th eobject of his criticism has admitted them to be true. Isarig 01:28, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Nobody here would tolerate revisionists attempting to downplay the number of victims by other racists - why do you think it's acceptable in this case?

Even more to the point, why do you think it's tolerable to ruin articles such as the one on UNWRA by flooding them with ahistorical denial of the kind that Katz is guilty of here?

This is the talk-page of an article about a terrorist group (we don't call it as much in the article, but we all know what we're talking about). In this article, it suggests that the victims at Deir Yassin were "allegedly the old women and children", and there are editors (not you?) who bitterly defend keeping that word in there.

And yet, when it comes to an article on people of good-faith (such as the UNWRA, not a job you or I would do), you're suggesting it's perfectly acceptable to jeer at and slander them in the polemical fashion that Katz does (not a Reliable Source in sight).

Perhaps a review of Neutral Point of View would be in order - along with some sense of respect for victims and humanitarian workers.

PalestineRemembered 19:43, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

btw, regardless of the fact that Katz is WP:RS per above and in general, there was nothing and never was anything from Katz written in this article. Pointless imaginary excuses of Ian Pitchford and others to blank out anything they don't like without knowing what they blanked out. Amoruso 01:37, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I notice you don't defend Katz in his article, you simply blank out anything you don't like.

I came to these parts determined not to practise edit-warring with anyone in here .... and I won't, no matter how much I'm provoked. I'll get over the handicap of being a newby as quickly as I can and find ways to improve the project over POV-pushers.

PalestineRemembered 19:43, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

What do you want and what does Katz have to do with the article, he's not mentioned or referenced even once - it's confusing to readers who will come to this page, and why do you feel your political bullshit needs to be presented with full stadium lights in every talk page in wikipedia ? stop making talk pages your personal blogs. Amoruso 19:49, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

There you go, make this your blog. Amoruso 19:53, 19 November 2006 (UTC)