Talk:Lazar Koliševski

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Wikified and fixed numerous spelling and grammar mistakes made in the English language. Rlevse 17:11, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Good grief, the article is so biased; I don’t know where to begin…--Cigor 22:27, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree with the bias, can someone edit it to NPOV standard, and as far as the roots of Lazar Kolisev check out this: http://site.znain.com/macedonia/pictures-and-docs/requestsfrommacedonianpoliticians.htm

To add to this website. the documents are true, however NO Macedonians during WWII could write to the Bulgarian government as a Macedonian. They had to write under a Bulgarian name.

If one would study Yugoslav/Bulgarian relations between the 1940s - 1980s. one will learn that Kolisevski and the Yugoslav government did nothing but attack the Bulgarian government on Macedonia.

Two funny mistakes have been done in describing the second picture (from LCY congress 1978):

1) Kolisevski is not at the picture. The man described as Kolisevski is in fact Petar Stambolic from Serbia.[[1]]

2) The man described as Dzemal Bijedic cannot be Dzemal Bijedic because this politician had died one year before the congress! [[2]]

Wow, how come this has not been edited earlier? First of where in the world is the source to support the claim in his early years that he changed his surname so as to show his 'anti-Bulgarianess'. And this whole Bulgarian element throughout the article is atrocious, nothing is cohesive and nothing makes sense. EDITED.

Read the external links. Mr. Neutron 02:06, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
There is no evidence that he ever was or claimed to be Bulgarian. If he was Bulgarian why would he have fought for Macedonia, why not for Bulgaria? He was appointed by Tito to be president of the Republic of Macedonia. At that time there was a lot of fear of Bulgarians, do you really think he would have appointed a Bulgarian to be a diplomat in Yugoslavia. The external links are pictures or do not work.Alexander the great1 15:25, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Whether you like it or not he was born Bulgarian. It is a well recorded fact. What happened to him later and was his choice in life does not wipe away his descent and the national consciousness of his family. --Laveol T 22:56, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
There is no such thing as "national consciousness of his family". His family was claimed as Bulgarians while Macedonia was under Bulgarian occupation, and as Serbs during the Serbian occupation, also while Macedonia was part of Yugoslavia between the World Wars. Nobody was born as Bulgarian in Sveti Nikole in 1914, but whoever was governing the town during the Balkan Wars and World War 1 was enforcing such "official" documents, that later are being cited as a prove. Given the times of no freedom and negating of Macedonian Nation by Serbian and Bulgarian source, this documents are no real proof. --Ejanev —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.253.197.167 (talk) 19:48, 6 April 2008 (UTC)


Contents

[edit] Sources?

Can someone please add citations to the information. Otherwise there will be no settlement about his ethnicity. By the way, a Google search for the following phrases: Lazar Koliševski, Lazar Kolišev, Lazar Kolishevski, Lazar Kolishev, Лазар Колишевски and Лазар Колишев all returned results stating an ethnic Macedonian ethnicity. Even Bulgarian Wikipedia says he was born in the "Republic of Macedonia" if you care to look it up. Frightner 10:13, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually I don't see an argument about his ethnicity - the article says he was "was a Communist political leader in Socialist Republic of Macedonia". His parents were Bulgarians though - his father fought in the Bulgarian army in World War I, and eventually was killed in the battles. Later Kolishevski himself declared Bulgarian consciousness in front of Boris III to evade death sentence on the base that his parents were Bulgarians. I guess all this makes him an ethnic Macedonian (or Serbian as he spoke mostly that language), but it doesn't override his origin. Feel free to add up that he was ethnic Macedonian, but do not erase facts about his family and early life. Oh, and Bulgarian Wikipedia says he was born in present-day Republic of Macedonia, which is a clear fact and I don't see any problem with it. --Laveol T 10:27, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


Lazar Kolisevski was born 1914, during World War 1. It was common to claim Bulgarian or Serbian Ethnicity for the Macedonian People depends of the current ruler in Macedonia. Macedonian People were fighting for the Bulgarian Army, also Macedonian People were fighting for the Serbian army. Serving in army does not make you Bulgarian and Serbian. None of the countries on the Balkans during World War 2 were recognizing Macedonia or Macedonian Nation and language. Most of the people in Sveti Nikole and other places in Macedonia had Serbian last names. Please note that even "Kolisev" is not a Bulgarian last name. My last name is "Janev" and I am Macedonian. Have never been Bulgarian. Same for my ancestry. Not only "Kolisev" family but many other were claimed by Bulgarian invaders as Bulgarians. My ancestors were claimed Serbians during the times that Macedonia was under Serbian occupation. After the liberation the injustice has ended for the Macedonian People. They finally had the freedom living in their own country to be free to express their ethnicity, language and culture. You can for sure find a document that my grandfather was Serbian ( born 1914 ), but that is simply not relevant. --Ejanev —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.253.197.167 (talk) 18:39, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

The fact that his father fought for the bulgarian army (sources please) doesent mean that he was of bulgarian descent, as im shure that the bulgarian army (as any mass of people) wasnt of pure ethnical backround. And i only wish that one day you have a knife under you through, and somebody makes you sign a confirmation that youre Turkish or something, and then its abused against you for your entire life.

I think you misunderstod my previous post - I said that the fact he signed this does not mean he thought he was Bulgarian. Where exactly did you see me calling Kolishevski a Bulgarian? Do you even question that he changedhis name from Kolishev to Kolishevski? I'll provide you sources, but I really doubt anything can make you change your mind. Oh, I'm not sure if I understand you, but do you wish me to get killed or something? "i only wish that one day you have a knife under you through" sounds kind of like it. --Laveol T 10:45, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I didn't post the response Laveol :p I always sign my posts. As for your summary, I agree, as long as his ethnicity is not under heavy debate as to whether he is Bulgarian or Macedonian :) Frightner 10:48, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

According to the history of this page, the user that replied to your first post was Falanga888. Frightner 10:50, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Oh, the last post was not for you - I know who wrote it - it's the same guy who's being reverting the page for some time now. I'll provide sources for his father and so on, but maybe tomorrow as I'm out of reverts for today. I think we can work well together with mutual compromises, but this guy - he just won't listen to me. --Laveol T 10:53, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Youre dishonoring the memory of a diceased man whos turning in his grave as you distort his family heritage and nacional conciousness,i have no reson to listen to you when you have nothing creddible to say.Falanga888

Since Falanga888 ignored a polite request to stop the revert war going on in the article, next time he vandalizes the article the admins will be notified.--The Fifth Horseman 14:21, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Answer to the accusations of Laveol: Your writings for the Lazar Kolisevski page are Nationalistic Bulgarian Propaganda. Your views are offensive to the Macedonian People. Refer to the Lazar Kolisevski under Macedonian Language Wikipedia:

[Kolisevski]

Your views are drastically different from the Lazar Kolisevski's page in Macedonian language, and Macedonian History.

I am born in Sveti Nikole, Republic of Macedonia. Have lived there for 30ty years and for sure I know that ethnic and cultural specifics of my town and my country.

Check [Factbook] for Macedonia, and people living in Macedonia. Please do try to find Bulgarian People there.

The book you have cited in the article is a Pure Bulgarian Nationalistic Progaganda, that negates the Macedonian Nation, Macedonian History and Macedonian Language.

I have started editing the page recently, purely as it contains untrue and offensive information which is far from the reality, and has one sole purpose: Negation of Macedonia and it's History and language.

Please note that under the [Kolisevski] there is no book from a Bulgarian author cited, but books published in Macedonia.

Please write for the areas where you can truly contribute with encyclopedic and scientific knowledge, without expressing views that are based on the reality. Bulgarian Propaganda is based on Romantic Natinalism from the 19th century, while Macedonia was still under the Ottoman Rule. In this century of open information and collaboration, You just can't continue with that outdated propadanda which is offensive to the Macedonian People.

Keep in mind that Lazar Kolisevski was a Macedonian. Has never expressed any claims that he is not Macedonian. Regardless that you have a link to a document asking the Bulgarian Tzar during the Second World War to revert his death sentence: During World War 2 and the occupation of Macedonia by Fascist Bulgaria ( Fascist as the same was true for Germany, Italy and others during World War 2 ), Bulgarian forces were not recognizing Macedonians as such, but as Bulgarians. Given this what was to write he in this letter. Also before the World War 2, between the Balkan Wars, and World War 1, and World War 2, the same people that were claimed by occupant Bulgaria as Bulgarians, were claimed by Serbia as Serbians. After the liberation from the Bulgarian and later German occupation, people were free to express their Nation as Macedonian.

Please do not return us in the times before the World War 2. Macedonian Nation is recognized as such, same is for Macedonian Language and the state - Republic of Macedonia.

So the edits were not true, Anti-Macedonian, and myself as a Macedonian, could not let that propaganda on Wikipedia exist.

I love Wikipedia, and I regard it as a great information resource. As your edits are not in line with what Wikipedia mostly is, I just edited the page to take the false information out.

And about the sources, you can refer to the books given in the Lazar Kolisevski page under Macedonian Wikipedia:

If you read the writings just above (which you obviously didn't care to do) you'll see that this version of the page is a result of a consensus between me and another Macedonian editor. Therefore I'll revert you till you provide a source that overrides the one already given on the case. See, noone here cares what you think, this is history and there are sources for it. Don't like facts - fine, but don't edit the article then. --Laveol T 17:59, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

"Laveol" - What you are doing is a Bulgarian Nationalistic Propaganda, it is Anti-Macedonian. You are pushing Bulgarian views which do negate the Macedonian Nation, Language, Culture and History. Macedonian Historians do not agree with Bulgarian on many things. Citing a Bulgarian Book on Kolisevski is not relevant, as it is presenting Bulgarian View which is not in line with the reality. It belongs to 19th century not to 21st. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ejanev (talk • contribs) 19:06, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Литература

  • Драган Кљакиќ „Времето на Колишевски“, Скопје, 1994.
  • Крсте Црвенковски, Славко Милосавлевски „Нашиот поглед за времето на Колишевски“, Скопје, 1996.

This books are published in Skopje. Lazar Kolisevski was living in Skopje, Republic in Macedonia. If he was living in Sofia, maybe you could state a Bulgarian book as a source. That is just not the case.

The Propaganda you are publishing here is highly offensive, and should be removed from Wikipedia.

--Ejanev —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ejanev (talk • contribs) 17:53, 6 April 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Claims that family of Lazar Kolisevski had Bulgarian ethnicity

When someone claims for a Macedonian person to be a Bulgarian, is an offense to the Macedonians, similar or worse when someone calls Bulgarian a Tatar. Kolisevski has always stated he has a Macedonian ancestry. He had done a lot to stop the Bulgarian Nationalistic Propaganda, that claims a lot of aspects about Macedonian Nation to be Bulgarian. These views do not exists in reality. These views are coming from the 19th century Romantic movement of the new Balkan nations, like Serbia, Bulgaria and Greece. After they got independent from the Ottoman Empire in the 19th century, and Macedonia being under the Ottoman rule until early 20th century, all of these neighboring nations had assimilation policies towards the people living in Macedonia. The fruit of this policies were the first and second Balkan Wars when the territory of Macedonia was taken over from the Ottoman Empire and divided between these neighboring countries. And according to the new rulers of these territories, they were inhabited by Serbs, Bulgarians and Greeks. Bulgaria got the smallest part, which was the reason for starting the Second Balkan War. These policies truly belong to the past and should rest in peace there. Macedonian people after the liberation and proclaiming of federal Macedonia as part of Yugoslavia, had for the first time in the recent history to proclaim there Nationality, Language and Culture as they feel it: Macedonian.--Ejanev (talk) 02:36, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

You have not made one constructive remark, but simply contined with the rants. I'm not claiming he was Bulgarian, but simply adding his Bulgarian name since his birth name was obviously not the name he later became famous with. This is sourced with not one, but two sources, one of which coming from former Yugoslavia. Your only motive is that you don't like the fact and this is not the way Wikipedia works. For the last time I ask you to stop with the nonsense. --Laveol T 09:04, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

See the section below about the Macedonian last names, and common endings of the Macedonian last names, as well some common endings of the last names in the Slavic Languages.--Ejanev (talk) 18:08, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Macedonian last names and some common endings of the last names in the Slavic Languages

Even last name Kolisev is a Macedonian one. Last names ending with "ev", "ov" are not Bulgarian. It happens that you have those in Bulgaria. But you have those last names in Macedonia, Russia, Check Republic, and so on.

Kolisev is a Macedonian last name. Same is Kolisevski. You can find both kinds with "ov|ova", "ev|eva", "vski/vska", "ski/ska" and others in Republic of Macedonia. So changing a last name from Kolisev to Kolisevski does not have any Bulgarian/AntiBulgarian implications. My last name is "Janev". You can find in Macedonia also "Janevski", "Janeski". All of those are Macedonian last names. The fact that you can have "Janev" in Bulgaria does not translate to ethnicity/origin claims in Macedonia.

Here are some last names that finish on "ov", "ev" and are not Bulgarian neither Macedonian:

[Sergei Lavrov] [Anton Chekhov] [Martina Navratilova]

So these last name endings are typical but not exclusive for some of the Slavic languages. Same is with "vski/vska", "ski/ska", "ich" which are shared between a number of Slavic languages.

To come back to Kolisevski: Kolisevski is a Macedonian last name, as well is Kolisev. If you can find a person living in Bulgaria with one of those last names, and probably you could not, does not gives any conclusion about ethnicity or being a Pro-Bulgarian. --Ejanev (talk) 17:36, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Here is a link illustrating different cases of common endings in the Macedonian last names [Macedonians]--Ejanev (talk) 18:05, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Poor sourcing

The sourcing for this article, especially those parts motivated by the notorious Macedonian-Bulgarian on-wiki polemics, are godawful, as usual. First, about the name: Usage of the name form in "-ev" seems to be absolutely marginal in English. There's one English-language publication cited for it, and that's really the only one that comes up in Google books. I couldn't see the actual context of the quote within that book; but what I could see is that even that book uses "-evski" more often, and lists only "-evski" in its index. Second, I don't see any reason why we would provide an extra "Bulgarian: ..." listing of the name form in the lead. The guy was never a Bulgarian citizen, except during the short period of fascist occupation, against which he was actively fighting. The claim that his parents were consciously pro-Bulgarian is sourced to an obscure book published in communist Bulgaria by an obscure communist Bulgarian diplomat; I have no idea what that book is about, but I would doubt we should treat it as a reliable source about anything relating to intra-communist petty nationalist disputes. In fact, the whole issue about both his name and his national identity seems to play a role exclusively in that context, of petty nationalist polemics, and nowhere else. I have no doubt that this person, like many others, may have had a name whose usage fluctuated between "-ev" and "-evski" forms, but even mentioning that topic seems to be giving undue weight to a nationalist fringe issue.

Finally, I strongly object against linking to just about anything on nationalist propaganda sites like "promacedonia.org".

In short, with most of these issues I'm effectually on the side of User:Ejanev. That doesn't change the fact that Ejanev has been edit-warring disruptively. But so has his opponent, User:Laveol; both are really on the same level here. Can we please all try being reasonable now? Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:46, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I agree on the sourcing part. But still the document was signed by the guy no matter who scanned it and where it was uploaded. Btw it speaks both of his alleged Bulgariannes as of the policy of the Bulgarian authorities at the time. As for the Yugoslav book - I thought it was a pretty good source cause it was actually a Yugoslav politician that referred to him as Kolishev effectively trying to disparage him by mentioning his BG roots. But never mind - generally you seem right for most of the stuff. I'm interested though if the user's getting blocked as a sockpuppeteer. Cause this is a pretty obvious case. --Laveol T 22:19, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Haven't found time to look into that closely enough yet. Perhaps you'd be better off asking for a CU? Given the nastiness of the personal attacks from the IPs, there'd certainly be sanctions if socking is substantiated. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:18, 27 May 2008 (UTC)