Talk:Lauffen

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I would be happy to collaborate in the editing and proof-reading of this page.Mikeo1938 08:39, 16 August 2007 (UTC) It's a splendid article about a small place. Mikeo1938 08:57, 16 August 2007 (UTC) The editing process is on-going but the results thus far should not be considered as the final draft. There will need to be a final edit and, in due course, further translation from the article in de/Wiki. Mikeo1938 13:43, 18 August 2007 (UTC) Prompted by a visit to Lauffen this afternoon, I've translated some more from the German entry. This duplicates in part what is already present in the English version, but any deletions can wait till all is done.Mikeo1938 20:40, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

My revision / retranslation of the entry is now almost complete. Does anyone know how to remove the banner about "copy editing required"?Mikeo1938 12:44, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I forgot to point out that I've done the easy part - checking and translating into my own language. The hard slog had been done earlier by those who translated from German into English. I'll be moving to Lauffen soon, and am looking forward to seeing all the places "on the ground". Mikeo1938 12:50, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Review

Thank you Boson for reading the entry and for your comments, which I'll be addressing once I've got in touch with those who wrote the German. When I'm in Lauffen at the end of the month, I'll get some standard reference books. I've followed the link to the Heraldry page and asked for assistance. Is it the case that a special format is required to describe the arms? Mikeo1938 05:29, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't know what Wikipedia requirements are regarding descriptions of coats of arms. Although I have dabbled in Heraldry, I am not an expert A quick look at the Manual of Style didn't yield anything, so I took the easy way out and marked it for expert attention. I do know that, for English coats of arms (not specifically in Wikipedia), the emblazonment usually uses a special language influenced by Norman French. For instance the "tincture" (colour has a special meaning in heraldry) that is depicted as white actually represents the metal silver, which is called "Argent" in heraldry. So if the German uses "silver" (rather than white) the English should probably say "Argent". If it is a plain (non-heraldic) language description, the German would probably use "weiß" rather than "Silber. Other conventions are the use of the words "azure" for blue, "gules" for red, "courant" for running etc. When objects ("charges"?) are shown in their "natural" colours (like the envelope?) this is, I believe, described as "proper". Though it is, I believe, frowned on in heraldic circles, for a translation it might be appropriate to make a reference to the (presumed) "pun", which an English reader might not be aware of: a running messenger, or "Läufer" (runner) is used to represent "Lauffen" ("laufen" = to run".). The borderline between translation and original research is sometimes not very clear. --Boson 06:39, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
A fine example of a blazon for a complicated coat of arms can be found here. --Rosenzweig 20:57, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

As can be seen below, we have had some expert help and the section about the CoA has been changed.Mikeo1938 14:09, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Blazon of the CoA

Here's my attempt, it will probably need some polishing though:

Argent a messanger in vestments Vert and shoes Gules, holding in his dexter hand a letter of the field sealed of the second and in his sinister hand a spear of the same tipped Azure. — Kpalion(talk) 08:56, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, thank you very much for the prompt reply. I'll put it into the entry now; if someone comes forward with polishing at a later date that can be added. I must say that the language of heraldry is new to me and has opened my eyes to a whole new subject. Renewed thanks and best wishes.Mikeo1938 10:01, 3 October 2007 (UTC) Forgot to ask: what is meant by "sealed of the second" and "a spear of the same tipped"?Mikeo1938 10:04, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

In English heraldry, it's better not to repeat the names of tinctures (colors) once they were mentioned, so instead you use terms like "of the field", "of the first", etc. In this case, Argent (white) is the color of the field, so "a letter of the field" means "a letter Argent". Gules (red) is the second tincture of a charge (an object) mentioned in the blazon, so "sealed of the second" means "sealed with a seal Gules". "A spear of the same" means "a spear of the last previously mentioned tincture ", i.e. Gules. And "tipped Azure" means (or I hope it does) "with a tip Azure". There might be a better word to substitute for "tip" though. BTW, if a the coat of arms depicts an object which alludes to the name of the armiger (in this case the town), it may be described as canting arms. — Kpalion(talk) 11:55, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Here's my second attempt:

Argent a messanger vested Vert in shoes Gules, holding in his dexter hand an envelope of the field sealed of the third and in his sinister hand a spear of the same headed Azure. — Kpalion(talk) 08:56, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I just checked, Gules is actualy the third, not the second tincture (the tincutre of the field is counted as the first). I also changed "tipped" to "headed", and "in vestments" to "vested". I'll go ahead and update the blazon in the article. — Kpalion(talk) 12:10, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, this is all VG indeed. Thank you for your help. I'm really psd that the entry now appears with the appropriate terminology. Mikeo1938 14:08, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I was wondering about the colour of the envelope. Since it on the field, can it really be "of the field?; In the depiction, it seems to be silver-grey (and has a border?). Possibly this is "proper" rather than a normal heraldic tincture. The German does say "silbern", which would presumably be Argent, but wouldn't that be against the rules of tincture? Not that it is really for us to do the German heralds' job, but the English does seem to highlight a violation of the normal rules! --Boson 22:44, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
I agree. The blazon seems to violate the rule of tincture, but it's not our job to correct it. — Kpalion(talk) 09:22, 5 October 2007 (UTC) VMT again for your continued interest. Mikeo1938 09:48, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Comments all noted. I hope that my posting on the Heraldry site will continue to bring forward those with expert knowledge. Renewed thanks to Kpalion and Boson.Mikeo1938 05:40, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Boson for checking in again. I note that you have removed the template about references. I now have reference material and will continue to add footnotes. However, it will be a while before I finish. Mikeo1938 11:38, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Revision

I'm now comparing my edit of the original translation with the current text in the German article and making changes accordingly. Mikeo1938 (talk) 00:09, 29 January 2008 (UTC)