Talk:Kwisatz Haderach

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Contents 1 Irrelevant Information 2 Jessica's decision to have a son 3 "Super Being" 4 Paul's Maternal Grandmother 5 this should be two pages; don't confuse hebrew folklore with dune! 6 The Bene Tleilaxu Kwisatz Haderach(s) 7 Scytale in Dune Messiah 8 Hebrew/Arabic

[edit] Irrelevant Information

Much of the information in this article is a re-telling of the books and is not appropriate for an encyclopedia entry. Much of the information is about Jessica and Paul Atreides and has nothing to do with the Kwisatz Haderach topic as such. That extraneous information needs to me moved to the respective entries, and may also need to be abridged.

The term 'Kfitzat ha derech' is some what an archaic attempt to express the english term "shortcut". In modern hebrew the term "Kitzur derech" is used. German "Kurz de recht" being "short of right" (right being direction as well as the term correct). Noting english "direct" of the right way or english meaning the fastest point from a to b. "Shortcut" being still highly equivalent to "Kfitzat ha derech". Spanish "derecha".

I'm no hebrew scholar, but i've always seen הַדֶּרֶךְ translated as "the way" rather than "the path." minor point, anyone think it merits changing?

whoever wrote this, you're confusing various words that happen to look similar. spanish "derecha" (from latin "directa") has nothing to do with hebrew "derech". "kurz de recht" is garbled; "de" is a spanish or french word, not a german one. german "recht" (english "right") are cognate with latin "rectus" and with "-recta" in "directa", but again have nothing to do with hebrew "derech". Benwing 23:29, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jessica's decision to have a son

In the original novel, did Jessica base her decision on Leto's desire to have a son? The current wording "Jessica falls in love with Leto, and produces a son for him" seems only to hint at this. It may be clearer to mention his desire specifically.

The wording currently in the article--"However, Jessica fell in love with Leto, and produced for him the son he desired: Paul Atreides."--sounds perfectly accurate to me. Jessica believed she did it because it would make the person she loved happy. Of course, the fact that the being called "the shortcut" showed up a generation early can hardly be considered an accident. Wwdandelion (talk) 13:48, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Super Being"

Does the term "Super Being" actually come up in the book or was that just a movie line? If so, I want to be the one to add it to the wiki please :) --JVirusX 23:10, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Paul's Maternal Grandmother

It should be noted that never does Frank Herbert even hint that Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam seduced Baron Harkonnen, nor that she was Jessica's mother. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Freakzilla (talk • contribs) 10:25, January 24, 2006

I would argue that Alia saying "Unless I'm born as you, I cannot think as you" in Dune after getting in Mohiam's mind is just such a hint. TAnthony 04:49, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

These dubious events are creations of Kevin J. Anderson and Brian Herbert and considered blasphemy by many Dune fans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Freakzilla (talk • contribs) 10:25, January 24, 2006

The Dune Encyclopedia actually first brought the suggestion about as a bit of black humor. It was added as one of the deliberate "mistakes" to uphold the book's conciet of being written in Universe. Frank Herbet himself never considered it anything other than a joke and actually named some one else as Jessica's mother. AM2783 18:00, 6 April 2006

What is your source that it was intended as a joke and that Herbert thought it so? And the fact that he named "Tanidia Nerus" fits perfectly into the Bene Gesserit tradition of hiding parentage. I not happy myself with much of the Brian Herbert/Kevin J. Anderson nonsense but this one rings true. TAnthony 04:49, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

It should always be noted when the abominable prequels are referenced. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Freakzilla (talk • contribs) 10:25, January 24, 2006

Paul is very formal. He calls Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen "cousin" and the Baron "grandfather" and later when dealing directly with RM Mohiam he never refers to her as grandmother. If she was his grandmother, he would have known this the same way he knew the Baron was his Grandfather, through presciance and Other Memory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Freakzilla (talk • contribs) 10:25, January 24, 2006

This is indeed a good point, but doesn't prove anything either way; Paul (and Herbert) could just as easily withhold this information, seeing more value in its future use. And I believe it's Alia who calls Harkonnen "grandfather." TAnthony 04:49, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] this should be two pages; don't confuse hebrew folklore with dune!

the part on hebrew "kfitzat ha-derech" should be titled as such and given a separate page, unless someone can show that the form "kwisatz haderach" was actually used (which is vaguely conceivable, as it *could* be a yiddish corruption of the original hebrew). the "kwisatz haderach" page should indicate that this term was *borrowed* from the hebrew "kfitzat ha-derech", with a link to that page. Benwing 23:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Bene Tleilaxu Kwisatz Haderach(s)

In the article, the way the Tleilaxu Haderachs are explained, seems to say there was only one, and that he willingly killed himself. In the Bene Gesserit Article it says, in the Breeding Program section:

"In Dune Messiah, the Tleilaxu Scytale reveals that the Bene Tleilax created their own Kwisatz Haderachs — in their case, beings of pure evil or pure good, indicating that the term "Kwisatz Haderach" means some sort of creature of essence. Scytale observes that their Kwisatz Haderachs could be destroyed by forcing them to become their opposites."

Shouldn't the final paragraph be changed to reflect this exact same information? This would mean that it's explained the Tleilaxu claim to have created multiple Haderachs and then forced them to die- instead of saying it was one, and a "he", and committed Suicide.

(Forgot to add my signature to that, sorry) - Meeh Person 22:41, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Scytale in Dune Messiah

As described in Dune Messiah, Scytale is a Face Dancer, not a Master. This is supported by the information on the Bene Tleilax entry, the entry on Dune Messiah, as well as numerous references in the book itself. Later books, such as Heretics of Dune, refer to a character with the same name, Scytale, as a Master, but whether or not this is the same character (or a later incarnation/ghola) seems unclear. Mayanaut 21:48, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hebrew/Arabic

Please see my comments about Arabic translations of Herbert's terms here: Talk:List of Dune terminology#Arabic (my arguments also apply to the Hebrew translations in this article). I don't question the quality/accuracy of the translations/analysis, I just think that any interpretation on the part of editors that is unsourced is original research. — TAnthony^Talk 23:34, 6 February 2008 (UTC)