Talk:Knanaya

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[edit] CopyVio

I've listed this article as copyvio because recently a lot of CV content may have been added in complex edits. I cannot distinguish what is and what isn't myself, and I don't want to revert all of the user's edits because not all of them are CV's, so I'm asking this to be reviewed. (|-- UlTiMuS ^{( U • T • C | M • E )} 07:06, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

The copyvio edits have been reverted . Instead of putting the entire works of several editors over the years under copyvio. It is better and fair to remove copyvio when vandals add them. otherwise many sincere wikipedia editors will be driven away from wikipedia due to hurt, despite sincere efforts over the years Robin klein 16:39, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Articles are not to be merged

The article Syrian Malabar Nasrani deals with the Nasrani people of Kerala as an ethnic people. The article Knanaya deals with a subgroup within that community. It is therefore essential to have separate pages for the topics of Syrian malabar nasrani and Knanaya, which are highly related. Besides it is wikipedia policy to create sub articles when there is lots of details within a subtopic. This has already been indicated with the main heading link given to the subpages. Robin klein 21:55, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Origins

The rticle says Knanaya people came from Eddessa (Which I believe to be correct) and now it says Kinai...Kinai? Rukyi 9:47, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Originally Kinai (i.e. Cana) in the land of Israel.82.6.114.172 11:07, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

speaking of origins, did u know that hindu records show that these christians were actually converted after they were polluted by eating beef. certain Namboodirs and nairs went to some place, some 40 families or summat, and they ate meat there and hence were outcast. They accepted christianity but the other christians didnt marry em. sSO they became an endogamous group...tht is these christians...Manu

What you mean by "these christians"?. Rukyi 00:43, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

He means the Nasrani. User:Manu_rocks is citing a derogatory Hindu tale about why the Knanaya keep to themselves. There are many such Hindu traditions against Jeish communities in India, though generally Hindus are polite enough not to re-iterate them and keep them alive. Eating beef might make Indian Jews seem polluted to Hidu's but not to anyone else Manu, so the sneer has no value for anyone outside of Indian culture.82.6.114.172 11:12, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The most common and historical name for this community is *Thekkumbagar*, which is Malayalam for 'Southists'. The name 'knanaya' is a 20th century invention by the Southist Jacobites. It later gained popularity among the Southist Catholics too. Therefore, this name doesn't have any historical significance as mentioned in this article. Malabari 09:37, 8 June 2007 (UTC)Malabari

[edit] What are the Jewish traditions followed only by the Knanayas?

It's often repeated in several articles that the Knanayas have preserved more Jewish traditions than the rest of the Nasranis. I can't remember any. In fact, Knanaya Jacobites don't even have the tradition of Pesaha Appam that is followed by most Nasranis including Knanaya Catholics. Therefore, the tradition of the Pesaha cannot be counted as a surviving Knanaya tradition as almost half the Knanayas don't follow it. It however, is a general Nasrani tradition. I posted this question at the Nasrani page but got no answer. Hence, I am repeating it here. Any replies? Malabari 07:48, 24 May 2007 (UTC)Malabari

Candle lighting on Friday nights is one. Please do not be beligerent against those Knanaya who are proud of their Jewish origins. Of course the majority went along with the changes imposed after the portuguese arrived, but the vast majority are simply concerned with preserving the ethnicity rather than keep up religious practices be they persecuted Jewish traditions or dying Nasrani Christian ones.82.6.114.172 11:03, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Where do we accommodate these facts. Unless more authentic information is fed to this site, any average individual with normal intelligence would seek some other sites to get real info.

Beef eating Brahmin? A paradox. The ancient beef eating community, prior to the arrival of Christianity, was Parayas (Candalas) of Keralam. Tradition says that the Parayas were a noble class of ancient Keralam. Legend says that they were sons of Saint Vasista. Their craze for beef led to the ostracism by the rest jatis in the deluge of time. Above all, because of their beef eating habit, the later arrived Nambootiries (Brahmins) did a lot to seclude them from the Hindu main stream. Even though these stories bear no historicity, it can give some hints on the process of societal polarization.

Priests The high priests of the traditional Parayas are called Kaikaran. It is interesting to see that the trustee/prasuventi of Syrian church is still known/identified in the land as Kaikaran. Why did a savarna origin Syrian Christian not go for a savarna term like Kalakakaran or Adhikari instead of a subaltern terminology? No doubt, this trustee of the Syrian church (kaikaran) is always hailing from aristocratic Syrian Christian family circle/taravadu of the respective parish.

Are the people of Canaan white complexioned or not? It is the general belief of the Kananaya Syrian Christians that their ancestors had migrated to Keralam in the fourth century CE. They did not freely mix with the Saint Thomas Syrian Christians. An exclusive community and by custom avoided intermarriage with the local Christians. They are still maintaining a social seclusion by practicing endogamy. Those who go against the practice of endogamy may be subjected to the wrath of the society in the form of ostracism or more. The practice of endogamy, no doubt, aimed at maintaining their racial purity. Unfortunately, the Kananaya Syrian Christian communities have no Canaanite or Syrian look but most of them are either of black or brownish complexion and look like an ordinary Keralite. This anthropological aspect may raise serious doubts regarding their Middle East or Canaan origin. Contrary to this Jew experience, after a long stay of more than 2000 years in Keralam, the Jews returned to their homeland, Israel, both in colour and culture as Jews. Primitive burial practices.

Death of Spiritual Heads When the head of the Paraya (Candala) community is dead, as per the customary jati law they bury the corpus of the deceased head (moopan) in sitting posture instead of the usual practice of keeping the dead body in lying position. The Kananaya and Saint Thomas Syrian Jacobite/Orthodox factions of Kerala Christians are the only communities other than the Parayas (Candalas) to bury the corpse of their bishops (spiritual head) in the manner of the Paraya moopans of old. No other Christian factions neither upheld nor practiced such a burial system. This burial pattern suggests a very strong socio-cultural or anthropological relation between both communities, which lost their link elsewhere in the deluge of history.

Primitive rituals. Before the arrival of the British missionaries, the Syrian Christians of Keralam maintained the ritual of offering obsequies for the souls of the dead ancestors as that of the practice of Parayas (Candalas). After the Portuguese Catholic interlude the Syrian Catholics transformed this practice into a more refined form that is of Office/Holy-Mass. The obsequies for the dead ancestors contained blood, flesh and intoxicating drinks. The British missionaries through their helping mission programme forcefully removed most of the primitive rituals in their socio-religious space. Before the English missionary interaction, Syrian Christians on the occasion of marriages, as a social custom, ritually used the intoxicants/tobacco. Such rituals associated with marriages are still maintained by a few of the certain jatis (castes) like Parayas, Pulayas, Vetas, Vannan, etc of Keralam.

Syrian Christian a tribal culture in its true sense. It is said so, that the Kananaya Christian migration to Keralam took place in the year 345 CE under the leadership of a Persian merchant named Thomas. At the time of his arrival here at Kodungalloor, a port city and capital of Cera kingdom, he met the ruling monarch (there is no consensus amongst the Kananayas regarding the name and other details of the ruler of Keralam who seated at Kodungalloor in 345 CE) who granted 72 social prerogatives to his community in Keralam through a Copper Plate Grant(Kanai Thomman Cheppedu). However, one thing is very clear. While we scrutinize the content of the said 72 prerogatives we find that the jatis of Keralam like the Pulayas, Parayas, etc had been enjoying most of them for centuries. Therefore there is nothing extraordinary in this said Copper Plate Grant. It is very clear that this seventy-two prerogatives claimed by the Kananaya Christians are the sum total of the privileges enjoyed by various jaties of Keralam. So the Kananaya Syrian Christians, as they claim, are neither a monolithic social formation nor a foreign race exclusive.

Among the 72 prerogatives, some are later additions. A few of such later additions are the right to the use of Nettoor Box (a box manufactured at a place called Nettoor with coral tree wood Erythrina Indica and beautifully coloured, was usually used in rich and aristocratic family circles/taravads of medieval Keralam31), swinging cot, gate and gatehouse/padippura, granary, palanquin, etc. All these became symbols of aristocracy only after the ninth century CE. It is seen that prior to the ninth century the technology of carpentry (tacusastram) was not familiar to the people of Keralam, is an accepted truth. Above all the Kanai Thomman Cheppedu (Copper Plate Grant to Thomas of Canaan) 345 CE has no historical soundness and the text of the document at present in circulation is a fictitious one intended to justify their savarna origin. Till about 800 AD Kerala was almost a part of Tamilakaom and the language of the region was Tamil with its own peculiar local characterstics. The language of the fourth century CE Copper Plate Grant is the Malayalam of late medieval period. Malayalam became a transactional language only in the nineteenth century. Before that all documents of Keralam were prepared in the language of Tamil with Granthashram or Vettezhuthu script33. Above all the original document is not traceable either. While taking all these aspects into consideration one is led to believe that the stories centering on the Copper Plate Grant is an imaginary one.

The marriage ceremony of the Kananaya Syrian Christians, a further indication in this way of enquiry, contained numerous formal procedures and rituals that were alien to Christians all over. Some of such ritualistic observances in association with marriages that still exists amongst the Kananaya Syrian Christians of Keralam are the hair cutting custom, henna application ceremony, the ritual of ash tying, the customary practice of nadavili, the customary rite of thalakettu, etc. They are the real facsimile of the customary practices, through centuries, of the subaltern jaties such as Vathies, Velans, Vannanas, Vetas, and Parayas. Furthermore, since the very beginning of Kananaya Syrian Christian history intoxicating drinks has been an unavoidable item of the feast of their marriages. This traditional practice of serving intoxicating drinks by Kananaya Syrian Christians on the auspicious occasions is the replica of the above-mentioned subaltern jaties of Keralam in the bygone days. While considering all the above particulars, along with the omission of Kananaya Syrian Christians from the purview of the Protestant Christian Missionary reformist enterprises altogether kept the uniqueness of these section without any defacement, point to the conclusion that Kananaya Syrian Christians are the hodgepodges of subaltern jatis and a few alien elements as in the case of Anglo-Indians. In short, we can arrive at the point that anthropologically the Kananaya Syrian Christians of Keralam have no racial purity and genetically they are constituted neither by complete foreign essentials nor by savarna jati exclusive of Keralam.

Except Syrian Catholics and most of the Protestant Christians, almost all Syrian sections of Keralam rings a bell at the climax of their Holy Mass/Communion, the same is not much different from the sound of a Velichappadu's (Temple Oracle's) jingling bells worn around his waist. Most of the vanavasis of Keralam use a similar bell at the climax of their poojas (ceremonial offering to gods). Some jatis of ancient Keralam, who specialised in witchcraft, were also use similar kind of bells in their magical exercises. That they were using these bells to produce sound at the climax of their magical exercises and doing it at the same symphony as Syrian Christians do it in their Holy Mass is a noteworthy similarity. Without any hesitation, on the basis of the aforementioned traits we can arrive at a point of conclusion that the Syrian Christians are a hodgepodge of avarna jatis and not the descendents of Nambootiries converted to Christianity. BGfromNZ (talk) 04:04, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Languages spoken by Knanayas?

I am surprised to find Hebrew in the list of languages spoken by Knanayas. It is vandalism. Also, why is 'knanaya' written in Arabic script in the introduction? What role does Arabic script have in Knanaya history? Malabari 07:48, 24 May 2007 (UTC)Malabari

A Majority of the Knanayas today speak Malayalam.

Arab ethnographers wrote about the Knanaya, so the Arabic spelling is a useful reference to independent sources about the ethnicity. Some Knanaya are learning about their Jewish roots on courses being run in Israel, hence Hebrew is being spoken by such Knanaya, and it is not vandalism. 82.6.114.172 11:06, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

---

Knanayas ROCK!!

I agree wholeheartedly User:70.156.210.219. I would just like to point out a few problems with this page.

1)Although it has been a redirect from the (Arch)Diocese of Kottayam, the article includes mention of both Syro-Malankar and Nasrani/Syro-Malabar branches of Syriac Christianity.

2)The same people are called Meyuhassim or Malabari Jews, and their relatives who have chosen to revert their faith to pure Halakhic Orthodox Judaism are called Cochin Jews. Altogether they form one branch of the Kerala Jews divided on issues of belief in Jesus and skin-color from other Kerala Jews. At the same time they practice Endogamy and prefer to marry each other regardless of faith and never marry non-Meyuhassim, though they have married Meshuhararim.

3)Their language is Judeo-Malayalam regardless of whether their faith is Syriac Christian or more Jewish.

I think because of the complex nature of this ethnicity it needs a project I would like to propose a Mehuyassim project it will cross over the divisions of this unique Judeo-Christo-Malayalam culture and clear up misunderstandings.

Zestauferov 12:20, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello, I would actually like to learn more about the inquistion of the Cochin Jews. I'm by no means an expert, but I'd think, that Nasrani should either be merged with Saint Thomas Christians or with Knanaya. --Pjacobi 23:18, 2005 May 11 (UTC)

Nasrani as an Ethnic community

You stated that the pages Nasrani, Saint Thomas Christians or Knanaya should be merged.

No, it would be erroneous to do that. The article Saint Thomas Christians deals with the Nasrani people of Kerala as a religious group and seeks to describe its religious denominations and other related aspects. While the article Nasrani deals with the Nasrani people of Kerala as an ethnic people. (infact see the category in which the article Nasrani is listed at the end of that article).

In the same way that there is a significant difference between Jew and Judaism, there is a difference between Nasrani and Saint Thomas Christians. Jew deals with the entire ethnic community of the people of Jewish heritage and descent, or those people born of a Jewish mother. But Judaism is the religion followed by the ethnic community of Jewish people. The two concepts do highly overlap and are related but nevertheless they are independent in basic aspects and is treated as different.

In like manner, the nasranis is an ethnic community and in that sense a single community. However the ethnic community has various denominations as a result of the portuguese persecution. As an ethnic community they refer to themselves as Nasranis refering to the common cultural heritage and cultural tradition. However as a religious group they refer to themselves as the Mar Thoma Khristianis or in english as Saint Thomas Christians refering to the various and diverse [[[denomination]]s between them in terms of their religious tradition, despite a common ancestory of being the descendants of the early Mar Thoma church or Saint Thomas tradition of christianity.

The Knanaya people on the other hand is another denomination within the Mar Thoma church also called as (Mar Thoma khristiani) meaning Saint Thomas Christians. However they are a distinct community within the Nasrani ethnic group. Because of their long endogamous tradition.

This aspect is already written in the first paragraph of both the articles. Please read them carefully. Else this article would have been merged long back. The article Nasrani deals with the traditions of the nasrani community as an ethnic people and their present life (which has to be expanded). Robin klein 04:31, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Inconsistent usage of AD or CE

Noted that the article uses both forms to express dates. Suggest this hould be rationalised --Dunstan 13:15, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I object to the Bias of this page. We Knanaya are not all Christians, only the Nasrani among us are Christians. Can you please tone down the overtly Christian propaganda on this page and focus more on us as an ethnic group. Thankyou.81.154.38.43 14:13, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Its really sad that you have'nt took any refrence from the books writen by one of the greatest historian E.M.Philip which sems to be more reliable. ---

[edit] This article needs complete correction? Added POV tag ?

A.History is written like story.We need some facts information.None of the information written has any proff.Even hostorians differ on the year.It can be anytime from 300 to 800 AD.

B.All wikipedia has lot of repetitions about Knanaya retaining Jewish traditions.I dont know about a single Jewish tradition Knanaya follow more than the Nasrani's.If there is nothing other than included in Syrian Malabar Nasrani traditions please remove the repetitive sections from this article as Knanaya are part of the community.

C.Many historians has written about the mixing of Knanaya with Veluthodathi and Chetty's and Manichainas.Those views are not represented in the article.

D.Marthoma Sleeba is not Knanaya symbol, its a common heritage of Nasrani's

E.Knanaya Copper Plates- No body has seen it and there are many contradicting versions of it circulating claiming Knanaya Copper Plates but actaully the Plates awarded to Mar Sapor Iso.

F.First time hearing about Knanaya hindus.What are they ?

Kevin 07:48, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree, the article makes too much mix up between Knanaya people and the Nasrani christians as a whole. It needs massive pruning if it is going to be a useful encyclopaedic entry on the Knanaya ethnicity. (I don't see how Knanaya could fit into the Hindu cast system either). 82.6.114.172 11:30, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please give due respect to facts and re-write this article with a neutral point of view (NPOV) according to Wikipedia’s guidelines.

There are too many errors and headless statements in this article. Please go through the various questions and comments that readers have and try to answer them. Thanks. Malabari 06:28, 30 May 2007 (UTC)Malabari

[edit] Non-Christian Knanayas?

Can anyone prove or give reliable evidence about the existence of any non-Christian Knanayas? Knanayas are usually Catholic or Jacobite. A Knanaya loses his or her identity once he or she converts to a non-Christian religion. Therefore, the question of Hindu or Jewish Knanayas does not even arise. Malabari 07:58, 24 May 2007 (UTC)Malabari

With all due respect to User:Malabari, I do not want to upset your beliefs, but there are plenty of agnostic and atheistic Knanaya who preserve the endagamous tradition. Please don't mix Nasrani up with the Knanaya ethnicity. 82.6.114.172 10:58, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

There are many non-christian Knanaya people. Knanaya is an ethnicity not a religon.

[edit] Massive Christian POV Bias

I kind of object to the massive Christian bias in this article. Knanaya are an important endagamous ethnic group of Israelite origins, many of whom practise Nasrani christianity, but not all Knanaya are Christian at all! In fact many are interested in their Jewish heritage and there is even a school in Israel where they can learn about this. Can we make this article more about the Ethnicity and less about religion please?82.6.114.172 10:34, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Totally agree. Not all Knanaya are Christian.

[edit] This is Fiction

All artilce is written as a fiction.There is no credible referance for anything. Can some one re write this article or better delete it. There is no ethinicity called Knanya. This all picece looks like the work of a fanatic.User:65.218.154.227

I agree with much of what you wrote, but what do you mean by there is no ethnicity called Knanaya?82.6.114.172 21:22, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

The article needs a MAJOR re-write, for factuality, language...pretty much everything. The group exists, yes, but this article doesn't give any semblance of a correct view of what they are.CharlesMartel (talk) 17:46, 28 December 2007 (UTC)CharlesMartel

[edit] Are Knanayas ethnically entirely composed of Jewish settlers due to their endogamity?

This article seems to suggest the title, although based on phenotypes, my experience is that they resemble the communities all around them and other Nasrani.

Also I wanted to enquire who the people on the infobox image are.Nambo (talk) 02:20, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Requires Clean Up

This article requires clean up as its very much distorted. I invite the community members to provide suggestions.

Tarijanel (talk) 08:26, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] POV

Debates within topics are clearly described, represented and characterized since July 2007, but not engaged in. Gocart (talk) 21:52, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] POV Removal with out cleaning

Below text from an unknown editor has been removed with out any discussion by another editor. The debate on the talk page about the content of the article is not taken in to consideration by any editors.

Please dont remove the POV with out cleaning the article.

Gocart (talk) 04:38, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Legendary accounts aside, genetic evidence seems to indicate a non-Jewish origin for the Knanaya. Reports from historians (e.g., W. Germann in 1872) report a community of Manichaeans living alongside the Nasrani community as far back as the 15th century. These Manichaeans were kept outside of the community by the Nasranis (the non-Knanaya Christians). Under Nestorians and Portuguese influence, the Manichaean side-community were slowly converted to mainstream Christianity; however, they were still kept outside of the Nasrani community by the caste-conscious conservative Nasranis. This community of outsiders were the ancestors of the Knanaya. With time, the Knanaya slowly developed new mythological accounts to explain their origins (in more positive terms), including descent from Thomas of Kana. Initially, the Nasranis disputed such legendary accounts (since the Nasranis also claim descent from Thomas of Kana); however, in the last century, this resistance has waned as the Syrian Christians focussed on a variety of other internal disputes. - - It should be noted that the Jewish-origin claims of the Knanaya have very little justification in fact: the Syrian Christian community, in general, follows similar customs that originate from the ancient Jewish communities in Malabar. Often, the adherence to old Jewish customs among the Syrian Christians in Kerala is a function of geographical location and not membership to either the Nasrani or the Knanaya communities; Syrian Christians from more conservative areas (both Knanaya and Nasrani) tend to follow the customs more rigorously than Syrian Christians from more cosmopolitan areas. Hence, the presence of Jewish customs among the Knanaya only points to their religious integration within the larger Nasrani community, and not to a genetic Jewish origin. - - Moreover the mainstream Nasranis (i.e., the non-Knanaya Syrian Christians) have verifiable genetic claims of Cohen and Jewish/Semitic ancestry. The Knanaya have thus far failed to demonstrate any positive genetic evidence to support their claim as being an "endogamous Jewish community." Finally, the Syrian Christians are also known to be endogamous, often marrying only within the Syrian Christian community and excluding the Knanaya from such unions (with equal rigor)---endogamy in and of itself points to nothing other than the caste-based exclusion which both the Nasranis and the Knanaya have practiced for centuries.

[edit] Majority Population

What is the source of Majority Population Israel ? Gocart (talk) 04:52, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Jewish identity

The Knanaya Catholics and their Jewish identity have been acknowledged by the Vatican under Pope Pius X, by instituting in 1911 a diocese only for the Jewish Christians (Syrian-catholic) of Kerala. [7] This diocese is called the Arch Diocese of Kottayam and is in the district of Kottayam in Kerala. [7]

This is gross misrepresentaion and forgery. There is no mention of anything in the order for diocese creation. The new diocese is created by power politics. Provide sourcesGocart (talk) 04:55, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] jewish identity is acknowledged by the vatican

Gocart, you have moved page even though all the established works on the knanaya refers to the community as Knanaya. the references have been provided. The text by the anonymous writer does not have any references they are just pov statements as are yours. besides your user name was created 2 days before the anonymous post, and you added the pov tag after the anonymous post.

besides the latin text of Pope Pius X at the erection of the Knanaya Kottayam diocese is "In Universi Cristiani" (Latin Text of the Papal erection of the Knanaya Diocese of Kottayam) It mentions the Knanaya people as Jewish. Which is why a separate diocese as Jewish tradition within the Nasrani christian jewish tradition of Syro malabar church was allowed in 1911. Vagab (talk) 19:35, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Re -naming and re writing of article

Tekkumbhagasamudayam Charitram by Chazikadan names the community as Tekkumbhagar. This article should be renamed to Tekkumbhagar.

Gocart (talk) 05:03, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] reverting pov edit

Besides the latin text of Pope Pius X at the erection of the Knanaya Kottayam diocese is "In Universi Cristiani" (Latin Text of the Papal erection of the Knanaya Diocese of Kottayam). It mentions the Knanaya people as Jewish. Which is why a separate diocese as Jewish tradition within the Nasrani christian jewish tradition of Syro malabar church was allowed in 1911. Vagab (talk) 19:33, 21 May 2008 (UTC)