Talk:Kirov class battlecruiser

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I think this article really should be moved to 'Kirov class battlecruiser' as it seems to be more of a discussion of the class as a whole, and then a new article created for the individual vessels. Thoughts? —Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 01:14, 2005 Jan 3 (UTC)

This article, Kirov class battlecruiser, acurately describes the class as a whole.
Soviet battlecruiser Kirov accurately describes the Kirov.
While both entries could be improved, they both accomplish the desired purpose. --Jsolinsky 19:51, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
You should look at the datestamps. I made that comment and then later separated out the two articles. —Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 18:54, 2005 Jun 10 (UTC)

In the first part of the article, it seems unlikely that the Iowa class battleship was returned to service to combat the Kirov class ship. During the end of the cold war, it was general knowledge that a "ship on ship" battle should never occur (a fact that was first shown during the Battle of the Coral Sea WWII). Missiles, subs, and/or aircraft would be the most likely methods of defeating the Kirov. The Iowa's 16" guns would be a last resort/defense. The Iowa class was returned to service for naval gunfire support (it did fire TOMAHAWK missiles from box launchers ABL, but this was an auxillary task since VLS and TTL is the primary method for TOMAHAWK).


The Iowas were indeed returned to service in response to the introduction of the Kirov, but it was more a matter of prestiege than combat effectiveness; the U.S. Navy didn't want to let the Soviets have a warship that was bigger and more powerful than anything it had, so it brought back the Iowas with secondary missile armament added.

Sorry, I still don't buy it. The Kirov was smaller than the supercarriers, so national pride seems served by the Nimitz, which was several years earlier and much larger. Maury 22:45, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Displaced tonnage is all well and good, but I'd be willing to bet that a battery of 16 inch rifles still makes a more up-front impression. Some folks just don't mentally connect "Aircraft Carrier" with "Raw Unprocessed Whupass" while "Battlecruiser" and "Battleship" can both carry that connotation, whether or not it's deserved in relation to the Aircraft Carrier or not.--Raguleader 23:40, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Well I can speculate all sorts of reasons myself, but that doesn't help. I find the claim difficult to believe, and without a ref I consider it to be suspect. Maury 13:20, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Sounds fair enough. If someone can find a legit source making the claim, it can be used for the article.--Raguleader 06:13, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Pennant numbers

If I have deciphered this Chinese website correctly, the ships have carried the following pennant numbers

  • Kirov/Ushakov: 076 (1980), 181 (1981), 065 (1981), 076 (1982), 052 (1985), 085 (1985), 065 (1988), 092 (1990), 059 (1990), 090 (1993)
  • Frunz/Lazarev: 190 (1984), 050 (1985), 750 (1985), 028 (1986), 014 (1987), 010 (1991), 015 (1994)
  • Kalinin/Nakhimov: 180 (1988), 064 (1989), 085 (1990), 080 (1994)
  • Yuri Andropov/Pyotr Velikiy: 183 and possibly 099

All very confusing. Was this constant redesignation of warships normal Soviet practice? Bastie 10:30, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, some other navies change pennant numbers too. By the way, the picture in the page is of Frunze (aka Lazarev), not Kirov. --Mikoyan21 22:18, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
BTW, these aren't pennant numbers -- these are tactical numbers, and they refer not to the ship as such, but reflect ship's position in a current operational structure of the fleet. So, when this structure changes, so does the number. --Khathi 23:17, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Orlan class, not Kirov class

This ship class is called the Orlan class, not Kirov class. NATO perhaps thought it was Kirov because the lead ship of the class was called the Kirov? I oppose en-Wikipedia's habit in naming articles about Soviet Union's ship classes after their NATO callsigns etc. even though they have their original, official class names as well! I understand that many of us have originally heard of Soviet military hardware via NATO sources, calling them Typhoon, Kirov, Akula, Fulcrum and so on, but is there any reason keep on calling them with those names? Also, the en-Wikipedia is the biggest language version of Wikipedia and considered the reference for others. It should be neutral about these issues, not representing some USA-centered NATO view of things exhibiting NATO military slang. 213.243.160.111 07:24, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Flag in info box?

So, does the big flag in the infobox for ship classes generally refer to whichever navy was the primary user of the ships in question, or just the first one to deploy them? I'm just wondering if there's some standard for why it would be the Soviet flag that is displayed here and not the Russian flag (If we normally show the flag of whoever deployed the ships first, or whoever deployed the most ships of the class, I guess using the Soviet flag would make sense).--Raguleader 04:29, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Classification

It is argued that Kirov is not a battle cruiser because it lacks the characteristic heavy armor of battlecruisers. That makes absolutly no sense as the defining characteristics of a battlecruiser is that it is not as armored as a battleship. Battle cruisers are in general not smaller than battleships (e.g. compare Hood and Bismarck - Hood was actually longer and equally large). The original idea behind the battlecruiser concept was to built a ship which is more powerful than a cruiser in order to hunt cruisers and much faster than a battleship in order to escape the slower and more heavier armored battleships. The Russians refer to these ships as cruisers simply because their operational function is more similar to those of a cruiser simply because the battleship against battleship and battlecruiser against battlecruiser fights of world war two are long gone.

The most funny things about it is that Kirovs ARE armored. ;) While this isn't a true belt armor of dreadnaught days, and is never referred as such in any sources, at least one of them (Prof. Capt. Kuzin's monograph, and he was one of the ship's designers) says that magazines and such are protected so they can withstand battering by HE charges up to 200 Kg, which is about the mass of warheads of most Western cruise missiles. --Khathi 23:14, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Google maps

ex-Kirov was pierside when this image was taken. ex-Kirov was the only unit with two gun mounts aft. This image depicts another Kirov class, possibly Peter Velikiy as the other two are Pacific ships. This one, near Fokino, Primorsky Krai, looks pretty stripped down may be ex-Frunze since it's in the Pacific and the forward launchers look covered or removed and appears to be an inactive area, maybe a mothball fleet. This one near Bolshoy Kamen is a 4th Kirov class, the second ship in the Pacific, possibly ex-Kalinin. --Dual Freq (talk) 06:07, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

<<>>

Well there is a very weird situation in google earth. The first ship is Kirov its correct, can be identified by its two rear guns and twin SS-N-14 launcher. Second ship is not Petr Velikiy its the Kalinin. It can be identified from its green Helipad, and brown P-700 launchers. Petr Velikiy has its missile tubes painted to gray and has its SA-N-4 launchers hidden (or removed). It can be found at Severomorsk base at coordinates 69 05' 06.31"N, 33 25' 27.95"E.(I don't know how to send google earth images, if someone knows editing this part is welcomed) The image you claim to be Frunze is really Frunze, there is a picture of that area, showing Frunze and command ship SSV-33(the huge ship at the south of Frunze) exactly at same positions. The ship you claimed to be Kalinin is possibly Frunze also, moved while google earth was taking shots. Becouse it has 8 AK-630 positions, Kalinin has 6x CADS-1 in place of these. If its not frunze, that means there are 5 kirovs around =)
Regards, Andraxxus.

<<>>

[edit] Bump on hull

What is the bump that runs the length of the ship on the hull?
What is the bump that runs the length of the ship on the hull?

Does anyone have an idea what the stripe or bump is that runs nearly the length of the ship on the hull above the waterline? --Dual Freq (talk) 19:07, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Battlecruisers

It's ridiculous to call them battlecruisers, since battlecruiser class was extinct after Washington Treaty, and no new ships were officially classified this way in any navy (nor Scharnhorst, nor Dunkerque, nor even Alaskas were called this way). If we want to be precise, we should call them "heavy missile cruisers", according to Russian classification (although they are no heavy cruisers). (Not "large" cruisers, like in article, because they are Тяжелые атомные ракетные крейсера - tyazholy means "heavy") Pibwl ←« 18:20, 28 January 2008 (UTC)


Your looking to far into it. Every class of warship has to evolve, and the Battlecruiser has evolved into what the Kirov is. Just like how Cruisers do not resemble the Cruisers of ww1 or ww2, they are still classified as cruisers. This is the same as Battlecruisers, just the Soviets are the only ones cool/smart enough to build them. They ARE battlecruisers and you have to get over it, at least people are not calling them battleships because they are the same size as a ww1 one...imagine that... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.160.171.88 (talk) 12:38, 27 February 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Radar reduction?

I recall talking to a serviceman who stated that the Kirov had features to reduce its radar signature (presumably to the level of or below other ships in the fleet). On at least one sensor it could be identified via the fact that the wake was visible before the ship was. Does anyone else have sources on this? --Hrimpurstala (talk) 21:04, 26 May 2008 (UTC)