Talk:Jurchens

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金之先，出靺鞨氏。靺鞨本号勿吉。勿吉，古肃慎地也。元魏时，勿吉有七 部：曰粟末部、曰伯咄部、曰安车骨部、曰拂涅部、曰号室部、曰黑水部、曰白 山部。隋称靺鞨，而七部并同。唐初，　有黑水靺鞨、栗末靺鞨，其五部无闻。 粟末靺鞨始附高丽，姓大氏。李绩破高丽，粟末靺鞨保东牟山。后为渤海，称王， 传十余世。有文字、礼乐、官府、制度。有五京、十五府、六十二州。黑水靺鞨 居肃慎地，东濒海，南接高丽，亦附于高丽。尝以兵十五万众助高丽拒唐太宗， 败于安市。开元中，来朝，置黑水府，以部长为都督、刺史，置长史监之。赐都 督姓李氏，名献诚，领黑水经略使。其后渤海盛强，黑水役属之，朝贡遂绝。五 代时，契丹尽取渤海地，而黑水靺鞨附属于契丹。其在南者籍契丹，号熟女直； 其在北者不在契丹籍，号生女直。生女直地有混同江、长白山，混同江亦号黑龙 江，所谓“白山黑水”是也。 金之始祖讳函普，初从高丽来，年已六十余矣。兄阿古乃好佛，留高丽不肯 从，曰：“后世子孙必有能相聚者，吾不能去也。”独与弟保活里俱。始祖居完 颜部仆干水之涯，保活里居耶懒。其后胡十门以曷苏馆归太祖，自言其祖兄弟三 人相别而去，盖自谓阿古乃之后。石土门、迪古乃，保活里之裔也。及太祖败辽 兵于境上，获耶律谢十，乃使梁福、斡荅刺招谕渤海人曰：“女直、渤海本同一 家。”盖其初皆勿吉之七部也。 Translated: "The Mohe are the ancestors of the Jin. the Mohe were called Wuji, the Wuji lived on the land of the Sushen people. There are seven Wuji tribes: Sumo, Boduo, Anchegu, Funie, Haoshi, Heishui, Baishan. During the early Tang dynasty, the Sumo Mohe was a vassal of Koguryo and surnamed 'Da'. Tang destroyed Koguryo, and the Sumo Mohe retreated to the to eastern mountains and estabilishes the state of Bohai, calling itself king and has writing, music, established five capitals, five governments, sixteen provinces. The Heishui (Blackwater) Mohe were also vassals of Koguryo and sent 150,000 troops to aid Koguryo against the Tang, but they were defeated at Anshi. During the Five dynasties period the Khitans destroyed Bohai, and the Heishui Mohe became a vassals of the Khitans. The southern ones became citizens of Liao [the Khitan state] and were known as "cooked" [meaning assimilated] Jurchen, while the northern ones were not citizens of Liao and thus were called "raw" [unassimilated] Jurchens. The "raw" Jurchen lived between the Heilongjiang River and Changbai Mountains, and so were called 'white mountain, black water.' The ancestor of Jin, Hanpu 60 years old came from corea ( today's south korea) . His older brother Agunai was interested in Buddhism and thus did not come with him and remained in Koryo. Their decendants were Shitumen and Digunai. When Taizhu [Wanyan Aguda] defeated Liao, Wodaci proclaimed to Bohai people "Bohai, Jurchen were originally one family" both were from seven tribes of Wuji." --Yuje 10:19, 20 October 2006 (UTC)


The ancestor of Jin, Hanpu 60 years old came from corea ( today's south korea) .

it dose not mean he is a korean , back then , lots of Mohe people lived and occupied on the soil , which today became morden north korea's territory, , but in the originally, it owned by Mohe people, while, korean only own small territory in far south korea .





I agree. First, we know the Jurchen language, and it is not related to Korean, it is Tungusic and it's the ancestor of the Manchu language. See, for example, Gisaburo N. Kiyose on that topic. Second, there's no evidence that the Barhae state was a Korean state that ruled over a Mohe population. It was founded by refugees from Koguryo together with Mohe people, but we don't know that one group was dominant over the other. We also don't know for certain that the Koguryo people spoke Korean--they may have spoken a continental language related to Japanese (c.f. Koguryo: the language of Japan's continental relatives). Third, the supposed translation from Chinese above is too wrong to bear. The translator has read Qing dynasty where the Chinese text says Jin dynasty. The translator has read "founder" where the Chinese text says "ancestor". As for "Hambol", the ancestor of the founder of the Jin dynasty, according to Gibert (Dictionnaire de la Mandchourie, pg 207), "According to the Chinese annals, under the reign of the emperor Renzong of the Song (1023-1063), this Han-pu [Chinese version of Hambol], originally from the Heishui horde of the Mohe, after having sojourned for a long time in Korea, regained the country of the wild Jurchens." So even in the Chinese records he isn't considered to be Korean.24.218.25.42 18:43, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Why not say that the Korean rulers of the past came geographically from today's China?

if qing were korean, why did they attack korea, make it pay tribute, force it into hermit kingdom, force them to erect a humiliating stelea in their honor

Contents

[edit] Singular

The name of this article should be singular under the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (plurals). Alan 12:08, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] re: Khorchin

The Khorchin are a Mongolian clan who were in close contact with the Jurchen-Manchu people throughout history. In fact, Emperor Kangxi's beloved grandmother was a Khorchin Mongol. -Andrew

[edit] Steppe Culture? Nomads?

I wonder if it is proper to compare the Jurchens so closely to the Mongols. The Jurchens were not nomads, nor did they live predominantly on the steppe, though the article makes reference to "nomadic institutions" and "steppe peoples". The Jurchen/Manchu language doesn't have much indigenous terminology for things related to the nomadic lifestyle...they even borrowed their words for "horse" and "sheep" from Mongol fairly recently. It is true that they were heavily influenced by the Mongols, but they were also quite distinct in many other respects. I also wonder if it is accurate to say "decades of a settled lifestyle eroded their pastoral identity," given that they were predominantly a sedentary people prior to the establishment of the Jin dynasty.


Could we have more details of the Jurchen society please?

[edit] Jurchens made the Han shave like the Manchus did ...

I have found evidence that the Jurchen made the Han, under the control of the Jin Empire, shave the front part of their heads.[1] However, it is not clear whether they required them to have the queue (braided pigtail). I believe the han living in the Southern Song Dynasty were exempt from this fad.

Since the city of Kaifeng (once again) became the Jin capital in 1157, I wonder if the Kaifeng Jews were also forced to shave their heads, as they too were under control of the Jurchens? This no doubt would have been difficult since Kohen priests are forbidden to shave their heads!!! (!Mi nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 05:35, 5 May 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Jurchen Hair-Dress

I just added information in the "Culture, language and society" section of the main article about how the Jurchen made the Chinese adopt their "Bald-Head" Fashion. (!Mi nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 18:41, 26 May 2006 (UTC))

[edit] The Origin of Jin Dynasty's Founder Again

Because someone said that history book of Qing is unverifiable, I put the website that have original text of the history book of Qing (Jinshi)[2], [3]. In the Chinese history book, it is said that the ancestor of Jurchen came from Korean dynasty, Koryeo. Jinshi is one of the reputable 25 history books of China. If anyone do not argue about this, I will put this content in the article.

 金之始祖諱函普. 初從高麗來，年已六十餘矣. 兄阿古好佛，留高麗不肯從
 ->The ancestor's name of Qing dynasty founder is Hambo. 
   When he came from Goryeo, he is about 60 years older or more. 
   Because his brother, Ago(阿古) liked Buddism, he did not follow, but stayed in Goryeo.
Draft History of Qing and History of Jin are two different works. Your use of "Qing" will cause others to believe that you are referring to the Draft History, which was never declared official. Further, "Qing" and "Jin" are two different states; your text does not distinguish them properly. --Nlu (talk) 05:20, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
If you want to quote the Book of Jin, might as well quote the entire section.
金之先，出靺鞨氏。靺鞨本号勿吉。勿吉，古肃慎地也。元魏时，勿吉有七
部：曰粟末部、曰伯咄部、曰安车骨部、曰拂涅部、曰号室部、曰黑水部、曰白
山部。隋称靺鞨，而七部并同。唐初，　有黑水靺鞨、栗末靺鞨，其五部无闻。
粟末靺鞨始附高丽，姓大氏。李绩破高丽，粟末靺鞨保东牟山。后为渤海，称王，
传十余世。有文字、礼乐、官府、制度。有五京、十五府、六十二州。黑水靺鞨
居肃慎地，东濒海，南接高丽，亦附于高丽。尝以兵十五万众助高丽拒唐太宗，
败于安市。开元中，来朝，置黑水府，以部长为都督、刺史，置长史监之。赐都
督姓李氏，名献诚，领黑水经略使。其后渤海盛强，黑水役属之，朝贡遂绝。五
代时，契丹尽取渤海地，而黑水靺鞨附属于契丹。其在南者籍契丹，号熟女直；
其在北者不在契丹籍，号生女直。生女直地有混同江、长白山，混同江亦号黑龙
江，所谓“白山黑水”是也。
金之始祖讳函普，初从高丽来，年已六十余矣。兄阿古乃好佛，留高丽不肯
从，曰：“后世子孙必有能相聚者，吾不能去也。”独与弟保活里俱。始祖居完
颜部仆干水之涯，保活里居耶懒。其后胡十门以曷苏馆归太祖，自言其祖兄弟三
人相别而去，盖自谓阿古乃之后。石土门、迪古乃，保活里之裔也。及太祖败辽
兵于境上，获耶律谢十，乃使梁福、斡荅刺招谕渤海人曰：“女直、渤海本同一
家。”盖其初皆勿吉之七部也。
Translated:
"The Mohe are the ancestors of the Jin. the Mohe were called Wuji, the Wuji lived on the land of the Sushen people. There are seven Wuji tribes: Sumo, Boduo, Anchegu, Funie, Haoshi, Heishui, Baishan.
During the early Tang dynasty, the Sumo Mohe was a vassal of Koguryo and surnamed 'Da'.
Tang destroyed Koguryo, and the Sumo Mohe retreated to the to eastern mountains and estabilishes the state of Bohai, calling itself king and has writing, music, established five capitals, five governments, sixteen provinces.
The Heishui (Blackwater) Mohe were also vassals of Koguryo and sent 150,000 troops to aid Koguryo against the Tang, but they were defeated at Anshi.
During the Five dynasties period the Khitans destroyed Bohai, and the Heishui Mohe became a vassals of the Khitans. The southern ones became citizens of Liao [the Khitan state] and were known as "cooked" [meaning assimilated] Jurchen, while the northern ones were not citizens of Liao and thus were called "raw" [unassimilated] Jurchens.
The "raw" Jurchen lived between the Heilongjiang River and Changbai Mountains, and so were called 'white mountain, black water.'
The ancestor of Jin, Hanpu 60 years old came from Koryo. His older brother Agunai was interested in Buddhism and thus did not come with him and remained in Koryo.
Their decendants were Shitumen and Digunai. When Taizhu [Wanyan Aguda] defeated Liao, Wodaci proclaimed to Bohai people "Bohai, Jurchen were originally one family" both were from seven tribes of Wuji."

--Yuje 10:19, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Of course, quoting the entire section would have damaged Hairwizard91's POV -- but what's new about his/her taking things out of context? --Nlu (talk) 10:24, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
So, quoting entire section make my saying more solid. Doesn't it? If you see the history book of Balhae or Bohei, you can find that the royal family of Bohei, which may be the Sokmal Malgal or Sumo Mohe, returned to Koryeo when it was Destroyed by Khitan. Eventually, the ancestor of Jin can be Sumo Mohe among the several Mohe if you read the context of history books of Jin and Balhae(Bohei). If you cannot find the sentence of the history bookf of Balhae, I can show you. The history book of Jin does not say anything which Mohe directly corresponds to the ancestor of Jin or Hampo.--Hairwizard91 12:26, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Moreover, according to the last sentence of the quotation (渤海本同一家) Koguryeo, Balhae and Koryeo are same family.
Furthermore, about the ancestor of Koguryeo, the founder of Koguryeo was Joomong, and he came from Buyeo. Buyeo was a succession of Gojoseon by Haemosoo. Eventually, Gojoseon is the firstly states of Korean without no doubt.
Consequently, even though Jin was not the state of Korea because of their people, language and so on, its founder came from Koryeo or its founder is Korean.--Hairwizard91 12:43, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
The entire history is significant, because it shows that the Jurchens had a clearly claimed ethnic descent that wasn't ethnic Korean. Quoting that single line out of context to prove that the Jin and Qing dynasties are actually Korean and ignoring the rest of the passage to advance that point is dishonest. As for Hanpu, the passage doesn't state his ethnicity, but Hanpu looks like a Buddhist name, while his brother's name, Agunai (阿古乃), lookes like a phonetically spelled name, and not an ethnic Korean name. --Yuje 09:30, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
More details, see [4]


Another history book 欽定滿洲源流考
From the history book of 欽定滿洲源流考 (卷七 部族)
In chapter 7 about races, there is a setnece like this

 "金始祖 本從 新羅來 號完顔氏 所部稱完顔部 新羅王金姓則金之遠派出"

Rough translation says that...

 "The ancestor of Jin originally came from [[Silla], and is called 完顔.
  Their place is called 完顔部. 
  The royal family name of Silla or 金 came from very old ancestor of Jin"

It also says that the ancestor of Jin founder came from Korea.



[edit] Correcting the name of dynasty

I should modify the pronunciation and as follows

  • The website of "History of Jin" (金史):
- Table of content: [5]
- The chapter describes the ancestor: [6]

Jinshi or History of Jin Dynasty (1115-1234) is one of the reputable 25 history books of China.

 金之始祖諱函普. 初從高麗來，年已六十餘矣. 兄阿古好佛，留高麗不肯從
 ->The ancestor's name of Jin dynasty's founder is Hambo. 
   When he came from Goryeo, he is about 60 years older or more. 
   Because his brother, Ago(阿古) liked Buddism, he did not follow, but stayed in Goryeo.


All this showed was that the Jurgens and Koreans originated from Chinese soil. Even the record of their history was written in Chinese.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

If you are not, I'm sorry in advance. But are you User:Breathejustice with a different account? You have the exact same theories and grammar. Plus, you work on the exact same articles, with the same persistency as well! (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 17:02, 20 October 2006 (UTC))
I have little doubt that they're the same person. However, as long as he/she sticks to a single account and reforms his/her behavior (and I think there has been a bit of an attitude improvement), he/she is OK. --Nlu (talk) 17:25, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
There are so many people to insist that the ancestor of Jin came from Korea. Some nationalists insist that Jin and Qing are Korean history, but I do not agree with the nationalists. Actually, I cannot interpret Chinese literature, so I did copy and paste from other sources, which you makes feel the same person. I have found in his or her webpage that User:Breathejustice is blocked--Hairwizard91 00:01, 21 October 2006 (UTC).
By the way, User:Ghostexorcist may agree with me, or he or she may have no opposing argument--Hairwizard91 23:49, 20 October 2006 (UTC)


Anybody has different opinion about the origin of Jin's founder?--Hairwizard91 04:37, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Put in a qualifier that it is in accordance with the History of Jin, and I would have no objections. --Nlu (talk) 04:55, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
That would depend on how far back you go in time. If you go back long enough, you'll find they all came from Africa. 7 Nov 06.
Huh? (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 19:31, 7 November 2006 (UTC))
I am not convinced by the judges,while the ancient leader of Jin maybe come from Silla,but it doesn't mean they are Korean.Many Jurchen tribes once lived in the nowadays Korean penisula,but finally they were consolidated and later became Manchu.Only if we enlarge the definition of Korean to other Tungusic peoples.--Ksyrie 12:40, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
I found something interesting in this page 金朝始祖函普族属考辨--Ksyrie 12:43, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

if qing were korean, why did they attack korea, make it pay tribute, force it into hermit kingdom, force them to erect a humiliating stelea in their honor —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.160.241.53 (talk) 06:28, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The card

  1. Fair use only covers illustrating the card itself, not the people who happen to be on it. See Wikipedia:Fair use#Unacceptable images. This is an unacceptable use.
  2. It's "stupid" because even if it wasn't against copyright, using an illustration from a card for a Chinese general from a boardgame to show Jurchen hairstyle is really, really unprofessional. --Alivemajor 03:30, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Professionals use the word "stupid"? That in itself seems unprofessional. --Ghostexorcist 03:39, 3 October 2007 (UTC)