Talk:John Piper (theologian)

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[edit] The meaning of "Reformed"

It's difficult to decide how to classify Calvinists like Piper (and Spurgeon and other Baptists) -- as Category:Reformed theologians and/or Category:Calvinists -- because the term "Reformed" has varied meaning. In one strict sense, "Reformed" can refer to a Calvinist soteriology plus an adherence to Covenant theology. (Piper has the former but, as a Baptist, a different view of the latter.) On the other hand, some folks call themselves "Reformed Baptists" by which they mean they have a Calvinist soteriology but reject traditional Covenant theology. Perhaps we should break the Calvinist category into "Reformed Credo-baptists" and "Reformed Paedo-baptists" (or "Reformed Baptists" and "Reformed Covenanters"). As they stand now, though, I put Piper in the "Calvinists" category but not the "Reformed theologians" category. Thoughts? --Flex 18:30, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure why you removed Reformed. John Piper has said on his own website he is farthest away from dispensationalism and closest to covenant theology. 24.124.61.165 04:17, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
Piper is reformed in that he does line up closest to covenant theology, taking exception to the covenant view that baptism is the new covenant sign replacing the old covenant sign of circumcision. Rosem12514 04:11, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
Which is part and parcel of being Reformed, so he is not Reformed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.163.0.41 (talk) 16:37, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bio is copyrighted

The biography section of this entry is copied almost verbatim from DesiringGod.org [1], which is copyrighted. A rewrite is in order. rae 21:09, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Not so sure this is a copyright vio. I quote from your linked site: "Permissions: You are permitted and encouraged to reproduce and distribute this material in any format provided that you do not alter the wording in any way, you do not charge a fee beyond the cost of reproduction, and you do not make more than 1,000 physical copies. For web posting, a link to this document on our website is preferred. Any exceptions to the above must be explicitly approved by Desiring God." Anyone have any ideas on this? Is it or is it not a copyright vio.?--ViolinGirl♪ 14:08, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Letter

It is misinforming to quote that portion of his letter about his cancer without the context. The "good news" he is referring to is that the recovery will be short, not that he has cancer. --216.171.65.132

I read the letter to evaluate your claim, but I think you misunderstand. The quoted portion itself identifies what news he is talking about: "The news of cancer". --Flex 13:02, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "John Piper is Bad" MP3

I just reposted a link to this MP3 file which is gaining rapid popluarity and circulation in Christian (and even reformed) circles. The existence and spread of this "mash" is a testament to Piper's rising celebrity in the mainstream world. Yes, it is humorous--but it is also a perfect example of the intersection between pop-culture, Christianity, Calvinism, and John Piper as a cultural icon. Since it is a quote from Piper himself, it is not derogatory or demeaning in any way, but affirms a basic tenet of reformed theology: the fallen nature of man. As such, it deserves a place, if not as an entire section, at least as a link. I would be happy to place it in the "external links" category, but it just seemed to fit better in the multimedia section. Thoughts and discussion are welcomed. -Neal

It is not appropriate unless you can find references to it in reliable sources. See also Wikipedia's policy on external links (especially WP:EL#Rich_media). --Flex 14:34, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
It was mentioned in a podcast for the Passion Conferences and Piper commented on it —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.32.145.124 (talk) 18:15, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Still not a reliable source indicating importance. --Flex (talk/contribs) 18:25, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Piper's mission statement is missing

Piper's mission statement needs to be worked into his biography even more so than his quote on Christian Hedonism.

Piper says he exists to "spread a passion for the supremacy of God in all things for the joy of all peoples through Jesus Christ." Infinite Joy 03:43, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge from Christian Hedonism

I propose that we merge Christian Hedonism into this article because, while many support Christian Hedonism, AFAIK Piper is the only one who has written about it in any significant detail. --Flex (talk|contribs) 21:58, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea. Christian Hedonism is very much identified with Piper in the reformed consciousness. TheologyJohn 17:19, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Mark Driscol has a megachurch and has written about it as well. Many other authors have written for and against it, and it is no longer a topic solely from piper 206.155.48.254 18:38, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Oppose The Christian Hedonism article has been improved and expanded. I also agree with the last comment that others use it now as well. Wyatt 19:51, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge from Desiring God

I suggest we merge Desiring God into this article. --Flex (talk|contribs) 13:14, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Oppose I think Desiring God should be expanded to talk about the whole desiringgod.org ministry rather than just the book. the book is very famous in reformed circles and controversial and should be expanded. Wyatt 19:49, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Is Desiring God Ministries notable as an organization? Would the other material you are suggesting fit with Christian Hedonism? No need to duplicate the same material in several places. --Flex (talk|contribs) 19:55, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge from Desiring God

Please merge relevant content, if any, from Desiring God per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Desiring God. (If there is nothing to merge, just leave it as a redirect.) Thanks. —Quarl (talk) 2007-04-24 10:17Z

Done. --Flex (talk|contribs) 13:43, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Johnpiper.jpg

Image:Johnpiper.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 06:27, 5 June 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Is Piper a Reformed Baptist?

User:Davidcmathis has several times deleted "Reformed Baptist" from the intro to this article. He said on his talk page:

I don't think Reformed Baptist is the most helpful way to label John Piper. Yes, he is Reformed in his soteriology. And yes, he is a Baptist. But that does not mean that Reformed Baptist is the best category. I take Reformed Baptist, as I believe many others do, to have strong connections with ARBCA and the Founders Movement within the Southern Baptist Convention. John Piper is associated with neither of these groups. His church is officially connected to the Baptist General Conference--far from Reformed Baptist! Baptist is accurate; so is Reformed. Although neither of these--or the two together--do I find to be the best headline adjective for John Piper.

I contend that the SBC strains of Reformed Baptists may be the most popular in America, but they are not the only versions. Moreover Baptist polity is essentially congregationalist with some loose connectionalism, so the official affiliation of his church isn't decisive. Rather, because of his beliefs he qualifies as a Reformed Baptist. Instead of continuing to revert back and forth, let's work it out here. --Flex (talk/contribs) 15:12, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Not to "label" him. But to say he is "Reformed Baptist" is not to say he is part of a denomination, which there is none by that name. He is also categorized as "Calvinist", but there is no denomination as such. If the terms are accurate separately, I believe that they are accurate together, despite some connotations to particular groups. He's not a Presbyterian, just because he subscribes to Calvin, either! Food for thought.Brian0324 (talk) 16:29, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I personally do not associate the term "Reformed Baptist" solely with the ARBCA or SBC. Indeed, when I hear the term, John Piper is one of the foremost leaders that come to mind. I vote to keep the term in the article. Snow1215 (talk) 19:19, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree with Flex, Brian, and Snow here. Piper is the most well-known (and beloved) Reformed Baptist in the world today. "Reformed Baptist" is a description of a particular Christian theological leaning, not a denomination per se. RB is the modern equivalent to Puritan Baptist, or Particular Baptist, or Calvinistic Baptist (and I would include Sovereign Grace Baptist here). If the Metropolitan Tabernacle were not part of the London association of particular baptists, would you say that Spurgeon wasn't a particular baptist (read Reformed Baptist)? --    GUÐSÞEGN   – UTEX – 06:23, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
I know brethren that are ministering in Presbyterian churches and denominations who are Reformed Baptists. I would still call them Baptists (or more precisely RB). There are PCA churches in Mississippi that if you pressed their membership to answer the question, half the congregation could be considered Reformed Baptist.  :-/    GUÐSÞEGN   – UTEX – 06:33, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Dear Brian and others, it may be shortsighted to say that if the terms are accurate separately then they are also accurate together. For example, try this with "butter" and "fly." Sometimes two words together point to something different than they do separately. I find this to be the case with RB in the States. It sounds like all you guys are on the other side of the pond. I think RB has a different connotation here in the US. The Brits may think of JP as the headlining RB, but that's not how American evangelicals perceive him, from my perception. Among young American evangelicals, JP is not mainly known as a Baptist, or even as Reformed, especially not as RB. He's known more as prolific author-theologian and passionate preacher especially from his connection with the Passion movement and 268generation. Is there a way that we can make this entry friendly to all English speakers? I don't think the American perception should carry the day, but does anyone have an idea for how we can at least factor that in? -Davidcmathis Davidcmathis (talk) 16:33, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Just a thought, but I'm sure he's like Spurgeon - he doesn't preach a denomination, but what he is - is revealed in his preaching. Again, I don't hear people call him that here in Minnesota, but then I don't hear him called a leader of the Passion movement, either. Not even sure what 268generation is but I've heard of Desiring God. Wish I knew more. Sorry for the anecdotal evidence.Brian0324 (talk) 16:42, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
David, I am an American Evangelical, and I have definite RB connotations for Piper. I understand what you're saying that that's not what he's especially known for, but I don't think that makes it inaccurate or inappropriate any more than it would be to say that Dinesh D'Souza is Catholic rather than just a Christian, though he publicly defends "generic" Christianity. Moreover, plenty of others consider Piper a Reformed Baptist (e.g., to take two examples from near the top of my Google search [2], [www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1761071/posts]). --Flex (talk/contribs) 17:13, 19 December 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Christian Hedonism Asserting things?

Maybe this isn't important, but it seems like the section on Christian hedonism goes from describing what John Piper teaches/believes to asserting what other writers and the bible say. Asserting that John Piper uses them as his source is different from asserting that they agree with him.

Specifically,

He was awakened to this notion in the writings of Jonathan Edwards, Blaise Pascal, and C. S. Lewis, among others, and then found it throughout the Bible, for example Ps 16:11; 37:4; Phil 3:1; 4:4 among others.

This could be worded better. I suggest it say something like:

He uses the work of Jonathan Edwards, Blaise Pascal, and C. S. Lewis, plus numerous Bible passages such as Ps 16:11; 37:4; Phil 3:1; 4:4 to support this teaching.

Thoughts?

--Mydogisbox (talk) 15:04, 17 April 2008 (UTC)


Fine by me. Be bold. --Flex (talk/contribs) 02:40, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Noel Piper

Does anyone else think that Noel Piper should get her own page? She has written 4 books and is very involved with Desiring God ministries —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.137.25.45 (talk) 13:09, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Does she meets the criteria in WP:N? --Flex (talk/contribs) 14:10, 11 June 2008 (UTC)