Talk:Jewish exodus from Arab lands

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:

Talk archive 1

Contents

[edit] Edits

I have edited this page very rigourously. Many of the most sweeping claims are not sustained by anything at all and even the rare occasion where there is a source, the source seems at least questionable. There are also vast swaths in which the words "emigration" and "immigration" are used interchangably (which I have corrected), a clear sign that the author mainly speculated and did not know what he or she was talking about. Note that the most important authority in the field is Professor Avi Shlaim, an Cambridge-trained academic and Iraqi-born Jew, who maintains that there was no significant drive in Muslim countries to expel Jews. At this moment in time, this article contains 0% information and 100% political propaganda and if the people who took it upon themselves to write it do not deliver the sources, the article should be deleted.--Chris Camp 12:33, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Nobody claims that the violence that drove the Jewish exodus was committed with intent to expel the Jews. The intent was clearly oppression, not expulsion. The mobs that committed these crimes fully expected the Jews to stay and receive more of the same.

And your point, Chris Camp, is, what, exactly?

Hi Chris, I've restored the lead for the most part, because your edits significantly POVd it. Shlaim is a revisionist "New Historian"; interesting, but just one POV. Jayjg (talk) 16:13, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Fair enough, if you think your point of view is the official history. Bear in mind though that the majority of the claims in the article are yet to be corroberated by sources. This should be done by those who wish to support their point of view with facts, otherwise every item that is not backed up should be deleted (which is 3/4 of the whole article at the moment. Btw to call Shlaim a "revisionist" doesn't make any sense, because the field he is an expert in has hardly ever been touched by any scholar. In other words, there aren't any established notions he could revisit, he could only publicise his own findings, as there is very little scholarship on Jews in Arab countries today and in recent years.--Chris Camp 13:01, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Shlaim is one of the New Historians, who were famous for being revisionists. Regarding Jews in Arab countries, the expert is Norman Stillman, and Bernard Lewis has written a fair bit as well. Jayjg (talk) 21:54, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
I just edited the page one more time, removing hopefully all of the uncorroberated claims. Please do not re-insert them unless you have got sources to back them up with.--Chris Camp 13:33, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Please don't mass remove material again. While sources should be added, this information has been long standing and is correct, and should be expanded not removed. What you do especially citing anti zionists as sources, could be construed as attempts to whitewashing this terrible ordeal Jews went through in arab occupation. Thanks. Amoruso 16:26, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
To say that unfounded claims "are correct" just by virtue of them having been "long standing" (i.e. nobody has yet bothered to delete all the nonsense) is tantamount to saying that if a falsehood goes unchallenged for a period of time, it then becomes the truth. I do not cite "anti-Zionist" material. In fact, I have only edited all items that were not backed up. Around 33% of these were claims that could be interpreted as "pro-Arab"(e.g. the one about the Jewish community in Bahrain). It is fair to say that I have been very timid with my edits. I really only deleted claims that had no source to fall back on at all. Other claims are "backed up" by sources that aren't credible, i.e. neither a university website, nor academic text, nor a dictionary, but blatantly POV websites. But I left those claims alone, because there would be nothing left if one were to delete all the nonsense in this article. It goes without saying that quoting a newspaper opinion piece or one of the various "middle east information" websites carries with itself the same amount of credibility as a doctoral dissertation that bases its main thesis around what is scribbled on the walls of a public toilet. It's a POV.--Chris Camp 23:39, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Chris, here's something for you to mull over. Jayjg (talk) 22:11, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Here is one of the many claims in the article which I deleted and which should stay out from now on. It is just one of many examples in the article where the author tried to use speculation to make up for the absence of hard facts.
It would not be difficult to put together the names of a very sizeable number of Jewish subjects or citizens of the Islamic area who have attained to high rank, to power, to great financial influence, to significant and recognized intellectual attainment; and the same could be done for Christians. But it would again not be difficult to compile a lengthy list of persecutions, arbitrary confiscations, attempted forced conversions, or pogroms.
Not only is there no source at all to back up this statement, but it is just complete nonsense. What is the purpose of it? To counterweigh one speculation with another and make it seem like a "balanced statement"? It's like saying, "it would not be difficult to come to the conclusion that Stalin pretty much saved Eastern Europe, but he also suppressed it and killed many people." To call this kind of piffle unscientific would be an understatement. The whole article is just full of this stuff at the moment. Numbers and facts should come from credible sources. They should not be invented and they should not come from propganda websites.--Chris Camp 11:18, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
It's a summary from a historian writing on the subject. Please stop POVing the article; Jews were certainly expelled from some Arab countries, and persecuted in most. Did you read the article I linked to? Jayjg (talk) 02:30, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Which serious "historian" would make such a clumsy and inaccurate statement? If you can back it up with a reliable source, then do so. If not, leave it out. As it stands, the whole article represents a personal point of view and not the factual situation. Yes I did read your POV article and what I said about it in my last statement refers exactly to that sort of POV source.Note that von Grunebaum does not go further into his claim, he just leaves it at that. For a more thorough refutation of Grunebaum's claims read Edward Said "Orientalism". (and on a side note, the "source and page number" that you hurriedly filled in to back up the silly statement does not match the original source). Please try to keep the debate honest in the future.--Chris Camp 14:28, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Said was an English professor and a polemicist, not a historian. The article reflects reality, not your revisionist view of it. I have no idea what "source and page number" you are talking about, but please remain WP:CIVIL; that is policy. Jayjg (talk) 22:25, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Said's degree does not have anything to say about his field of expertise. His expertise on orientalism was and is unquestionable. Please also note that pointing out that your edits are POVed is not an infringement of Wikipedia's requirements of civility. It is, however, a requirement to follow up claims with reliable sources, which has not yet happened as far as this article is concerned.--Chris Camp 22:47, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Said's polemics regarding orientalism were unquestionably influential, but that doesn't make him a historian. Claiming that a person is not being "honest" violates WP:CIVIL. What were you talking about when you claimed to the "source and page number" that you hurriedly filled in to back up the silly statement does not match the original source? Jayjg (talk) 23:17, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This doesn't make any sense

"It was following the Holocaust that the demographic potential of Arab Jews for consolidation of the Jewish state was first recognised." And why is it part of WikiProject Syria? Fourtildas 02:26, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

You're right. I'm deleting the sentence. --GHcool 20:44, 14 April 2007 (UTC)


[edit] The introductory paragraph

I have tried a couple of times to alter the introductory paragraph and present a more neutral point of view. But people keep reverting it to the original propaganda method of mixing something which is uncontroversial (i.e. the modern state of Israel attracted many immigrants, in particular Jews, from around the world) with something that is very controversial indeed, (namely, the allegation that there was massive and widespread discrimination against and subjugation of Jews in Arab countries which compelled Jewish citizens to emigrate to Israel).

The first point is not backed up by any facts in the text, but I suppose it is uncontroversial and does not need to be changed. The second point is very controversial indeed and is also not backed at any point. In fact, the various instances in the article where the point is "proven", the "proof" isn't backed up by any sources. On the rare occasion where there is a source, the source is, at best, spurious, provided by obscure German orientalists who have long since been debunked by more serious scholarship. Sources and page numbers are made up, historical ramifications are speculated upon and most of this article is POV guesswork. The only serious academic who has written to some extent about the topic is professor Avi Shlaim of Cambridge university. Unsurprisingly, he is not mentioned at all in the article.--Chris Camp 16:16, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually, as explained before, the only serious academics on this subject are Stillman and Lewis. I'm not sure why you keep repeating incorrect claims; they won't become true simply by dint of repetition. Jayjg (talk) 22:27, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Lewis has not written enough about the subject to be considered an authority on the subject. Besides, unlike Shlaim, he does not speak or read any Arabic (precluding any qualitative research.--Chris Camp 22:43, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Um, I'm pretty sure Lewis reads Arabic: It was vintage Lewis--reading the sources, in this case a marginal Arabic newspaper published out of London, Al-Quds Al-Arabi, in February of 1998--to come across a declaration of war on the United States by a self-designated holy warrior he had "never heard of," Osama bin Laden. He's also the most influential post-war historian of Islam. Jayjg (talk) 23:15, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Possible mistake in photo caption

As User:Emmanuelm has pointed out, the photo in Image:Maabarah camp city.jpg is identified in UNRWA website as the Baqua'a Palestinian refugee camp (Jordan) in 1969, not a Jewish refugee camp.--Doron 17:39, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Islam and antisemitism

Can someone justify what this article has to do with the "religion of Islam"?Bless sins 05:00, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Note

I encountered the POV sentence:-

Further Arab-Israeli wars were sustained by, and in turn exacerbated, anti-Jewish sentiment within the various Arab-majority states.

which means that wars between Arab countries and Israel were sustained by anti-semitism, more or less. I don't know how this extraordinary subjective POV got through so many editors, but you cannot put on a page under NPOV guidelines the insinuation that Israel's conflicts with its neighbours are reducible to anti-semitism among Arabs. Well, you can actually, but it would still constitute OR, or EOR (extremely original research) Nishidani 15:49, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

(2) 'Excluding the Land of Israel, and omitting the Biblical account of the Jews' slavery in Egypt, Jews have lived in what are now Arab states at least since the Babylonian captivity (597 BCE), about 2,600 years ago.'

I.e. what are now Arab states, (Morocco, Algeria, Qatar, Libya, Tunisia, Yemen etc.etc.) have been inhabited at least since 597 BCE. Apart from the error in the date (the Babylonian captivity is dated 586) what are we to make of this extraordinary and meaningless statement? There is no alternative than that of expunging a hopelessly confused remark. I leave it to other editors to restate whatever was intended to be stated here.Nishidani 15:59, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

(3) The table's calculations will have to be adjusted because Iran and Turkey have been eliminated. They are ot 'Arab' countries, but countries with an Islamic culture, which is quite another thing. Nishidani 16:12, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Iran

What about Iran? Why is Iran not mentioned anywhere on this page?? Perhaps there are other blatant omissions as well... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.119.1.160 (talk) 21:56, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Because of a problem with the article's name. Unfortunately, the article's name reflects poor naming on the part of the majority of authors who cover this subject...namely, a continuing confusion between the terms "Arab" and "Muslim". The situation with the history of the Jews who have left non-Arab Muslim-majorities has, in most cases, been parallel to the situation with the Jews who fled Arab countries, but has not been, in most cases, concurrent. For example, while many Persian Jews (40-45%) left Iran in the period of 1948-1979, they left piecemeal and often with more than just the clothes on their backs. The situation after the Islamic Revolution was much different, and a far closer to parallel to the situation for the Jews from Arab lands, but 30 years later. As far as I'm aware, the situation with the Jews of Pakistan is that they left during the wars between Pakistan (East and West) and India, not as a result of persecution, but just to get out of the war zone. Keep in mind also, that India is a non-Arab and non-Muslim-majority country which has lost 90% of its Jews in the past 60 years, primarily to Israel. I've fixed the table for Jews from non-Arab countries, but I think it should probably be removed altogether, and put into an article somewhere else that discusses the subject of Jewish depopulation of various countries, and that this article here should be an extension of ... that one. (Did I lose anyone there? :-p) Tomertalk 18:54, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
No, impeccable reasoning. I originally removed the reference, within a table of Jews in Arab lands, to Iran and Turkey, because of the elementary confusion between Islamic and Arab. As you note the reconstituted table and its details (fascinating) should not be on this page, unless the title is changed. Nishidani 21:18, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

>"Did I lose anyone there? :-p)"
Partly me.
700,000 Jews settled in Israel between 1949 and 1951. (source : Morris, victims)
136,000 came from DP camps in Europe (source : official website of DP)
Where did the others come from ?
I think they must have come mainly from arab and muslim lands...
Alithien 21:47, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand how this is related to what I said above. Tomertalk 00:09, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
I understand you mean most of numbers given in this article refers to jews who -in fact- did not flee in '48
That is also what can be decuded from some references.
So my question is : where did come from the 700,000 Jews who settled in Israel between '49 and '51.
Alithien 20:18, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Most of them came from the Arab countries. I don't think there's any dispute about that. But I still don't understand what your question has to do with anything I said above. Tomertalk 21:35, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Disputed, maybe not but even if this was not your aim, this is questionned by me at the reading of your own reasonning emphasing on events that arose after the '48 period.
It seems that more Jews settled in Israel in '48 than emigrated from Arab and Muslim lands.
The link between what I question and what you write is simply that you emphasize on the talk page dedicated mainly to this '48 immigration on events that are not link with that.
Is this more clear ?
Alithien 07:25, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

No. Clearly the problem here is a language barrier. Could you try restating what you're saying in a different language, and maybe someone will be able to translate your question? Tomertalk 16:36, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Google searches for "Jewish exodus from Arab lands" pulls lots of Google hits, even excluding Wikipedia and Schulewitz's book; so it probably is an appropriate title.

On the other hand, exodus from other Muslim countries, such as Iran and Turkey is clearly related, and should be discussed in the article -- if only to quantify how far this actually is a specifically Arab phenomenon. One might also put up figures for proportions of survivors emigrating from eg France, Germany, and Central Europe, etc since the war for comparison.

One might also add a line at sentence 2 right up at the top of the article, "Substantial migrations have also occurred from non-Arab countries, for example Turkey, Iran, India...

This wider view and context ought to find a place in the article, IMO. Jheald 16:41, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

actually, there are noticable differences, because of the israeli-arab conflict. the numbers speak for themselves, actually - the communities in iran and turkey are still viable (size-wise) while jews are nearly extinct from all arab countries, morocco and the island of djerba being an exception. so, while migrations have occured from other muslim countries, it's a somewhat different phenomena. 212.29.208.226 (talk) 08:07, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Picture to add

I think this could be useful : [1] but I will never be able to undersand licences related to these pictures. So, if someone could upload or take care of the issue... Ceedjee (talk) 07:46, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Some Problems

It is ahistorical to conflate the situation of Jews in every Arab country. The emigration of Jews from Algeria, Morocco, and Tunisia (500,000 in total) was not prompted by persecution but by uncertainty about the future. Jews in Algeria were already French citizens and they simply followed the the other one million French settlers to France. [2] This attempt to liken the voluntary emigration of Jews from the countries of the Maghreb smacks of a distasteful attempt to trivialize the suffering of the Palestinian people.Krasna (talk) 01:31, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't see the link with the "suffering of the Palestinian people" here.
Concerning the motivation of the Jews to leave maghreb, Benny Morris points out that in April 1948, in Oujda and Djerada, in French-rules Morocco, Arab mobs killed dozens of Jews, including some 20 women and children (Benny Morris, 1948, p.413). He adds (p.414) that most Jews left maghreb in the 50's - 60's, despite the protection (sic) offered by Mohammed V; he points out elite left to France and the remaining to Israel. According to him, the turning point was a pogrom that occured in august 1955 near casablanca where 8 jews were killed and 40 houses destroyed. The second turning point was the death of Mohammed V in '61. Ceedjee (talk) 08:50, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
To reinforce Ceedjee, here's something for you to consider: [3]. Albert Memmi details the background of the departure of tunisian jewry. 80.179.69.194 (talk) 10:57, 11 June 2008 (UTC)