Talk:James Barry (surgeon)

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Contents

[edit] Pope Joan?

Perhaps a reference to Pope Joan is in place? // Liftarn

Naaaah, it's not relevant. Besides, historians believe Pope Joan was a myth, but James barry was a real person. Kevyn 13:31, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Move to James Barry (surgeon)

Would anyone object if I moved James Barry (woman) to James Barry (surgeon)?

On the disambig page for James Barry, this person is listed as a surgeon, and according to this article, "Barry was accepted into the Edinburgh University as a 'literary and medical student' in 1809 and qualified with a Medical Doctorate in 1812. " So Barry legitimately was a surgeon - and quite a good one, too, according to the article.

Yes, I know the fact that Barry was physically female may very well be what made Barry notable, but disambiguating Barry by physical gender, instead of profession, makes me a little queasy. It strikes me as a little demeaning.

I do not presume to know Barry's motivations for passing as a man - be it in order to become a surgeon in a time when women could not become one, or if Barry was what we today would call a transgender male - but Barry clearly was not interested in identifying as a woman, and as such, I think we should respect the good doctor's wishes.

In short, I suspect that James Barry would probably rather be remembered as a surgeon than as a woman.

Kevyn 00:23, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Can I suggest here that Barry's fame as a surgeon would have been far greater, but for the fact that Barry was a woman. It appears that information regarding Barry was suppressed by the military, once Barry's gender was known, and a truly great surgeon was allowed to slip into obscurity, to save the face of the establishment. --Amandajm 11:11, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
OK, seeing as there were no objections, I have moved the page. Kevyn 13:28, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Gender

It is by no means established that Barry was a woman. From the new Dictionary of Canadian Biography bio,

After the physician’s death in 1865 rumours, apparently begun by his charwoman, circulated in London that James Barry was a woman, and the story, reinforced by undoubted physical peculiarities in size and voice, was disseminated widely in the press. It has been believed then and since, but recent research shows room for doubt. More likely seems the suggestion, elaborating one made 80 years ago in the medical journal Lancet, that Barry was a male hermaphrodite who had feminine breast development and external genitalia. Barry’s personal life must have been difficult in any case, though he accomplished much in his medical career." (by User:Fawcett5, unsigned)
  • You can include the claims and speculation to the contrary - and their source - to the article. And I'd recommend that you sign your comments - Skysmith 09:18, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
  • I've included one such source (external PDF link), though I'm not the one to judge one way or the other.  DavidDouthitt  (Talk) 09:46, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Plagarism?

I found an identical copy of this article at http://experts.about.com/e/j/ja/James_Barry_(surgeon).htm (at least prior to my editing on it). No attribution to Wikipedia is present - after reading this talk page, it appears that the Wikipedia entry was copied word for word (and picture for picture) without attribution.  DavidDouthitt  (Talk) 09:46, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

It's a wikipedia mirror. TastyCakes 17:22, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] PoV issue?

I recently read an article which was carried in Edinburgh's main evening paper, Edinburgh Evening News, and also a weekly, the Edinburgh Herald and Post, available here, which takes a pretty radically different view to the one in this Wikipedia article. These articles make (cited) claims that some senior bodies in the Edinburgh medical profession want to recognise the achievements of someone they very definitely class as a woman in disguise. It's a good enough reference to make some substantial comments about whether Barry was in fact simply a woman trying to get on in a man's world, and not a hermaphrodite as is implied by the present WP article. I don't want to make sweeping changes without some discussion here first, but it seems like the article needs a very substantial re-write to better allow for the fact that the details are questionable. – Kieran T (talk) 14:17, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

There is also the fact that we don't know if Barry considered her/himself to be a man or not. Some female wartime crossdressers, such as Albert Cashier, seem to regard themselves as men, and would no doubt identify as transgender in today's society, but most cross-dressed simply out of neccessity. It simply isn't clear if Barry identified as a man or a woman. There article assumes that Barry identified as a man and refers to him/her as by male pronouns, but we can't know for certain. Asarelah 22:35, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Transgendered?

I think that the suggestion that James Barry was transgendered is frankly ridiculous. While it has always been possible, and relatively easy to remove the male sexual organs from a male person, making a female more masculine is a more dificult task. How does one suppose that Barry may have been transgendered into a man. Or is the suggestion here that a previously male barry, who chose to live as a male all his life, was actually transgendered to a female, but continued to live as a male. Most unlikely. Can I suggest that the "transgender" line is removed.

I don't have the references to hand, but it would seem that to suggest that Barry was anything other than a perfectly normal female is incorrect.

The evidence to support that Barry was simply a female in male attire are:-

  1. Barry was excessively discrete about all bodily functions, while living in a male world, in otherwords, it was observed that Barry didn't have a communal pee with the boys.
  2. Barry had only one servant, who remained in his/her employ for many years. This man claimed to have provided Barry with two clean towels every day, which Barry wrapped around her body, under her uniform.
  3. A fellow student of Barry, when studying medicine in Edinburgh commented that because Barry was so small he tried to teach "him" self-defence. But when they donned boxing-gloves, Barry repeatedly put his/her arms over his/her chest "like a girl" (presumably because even little boobs hurt like b....y if they get thumped).
  4. Barry was extraordinarily solicitous of women in childbirth, saving the life of the Governor's daughter after a very difficult birth. I seem to recall that the baby was named after Barry. Barry developed new procedures for deliveries.
  5. During Barry's time in Africa, she/he took sudden unscheduled leave of some months, and returned to England. When questioned as to why she had gone, she said "To get a decent haircut".
  6. At Barry's death, a woman came to lay out the body and discovered that Barry was a female, perfectly normal, and had given birth.
  7. Although Barry was an outstanding surgeon, developed new techniques for wound management and had tremendous success in treating sepsis and saving limbs which most army surgeons would simply have amputated, Barry received little recognition, was deprived of much of the honour that was her due and was kept offshore for the greater part of her career.
  8. Barry's encounter with Florence Nightingale was brief. Barry, although small, from preference always rode a very tall horse. When she met Florence Nightingale, she did not dismount from her horse, and spoke to her briefly and tersely. (Perhaps she felt that Nightingale would recognise her as female and blow her cover.)
  9. Her military files disappeared after her death.

Barry appears to have mmade the decision to become a surgeon while still in her teens. There was no opening for a girl to train in such a field. If her ambition led her in that direction, then to disguise herself as a boy was the only option. The crucial matter here is that she was first and foremost a surgeon. Not first and foremost a "cross-dresser", an hermaphrodite or a transgender person. What we undestand for certain about Barry is her lifelong dedication to saving lives and limbs. --Amandajm 10:23, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Trying for accuracy without sensationalism

I removed the ridiculous statement that Barry "was of uncertain gender". Because being of "uncertain gender" means that, on examination, it is impossible to tell whether a person is male or female. There is no evidence whatsoever to support a suggestion that Barry's gender, upon examination, appeared ambiguous. It is not the same thing as saying that Barry's gender is not known.

[edit] Picture

Would it perhaps be possible, to put the picture of Barry into the commons? I have translated the article into German and would like to put the picture in, but am afraid, I am not so good to make the transition of the picture myself. Thanks! Anne-theater 01:43, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gender Grammar

  • Is it possible to be a little more consistent with grammar? Although I know there is the problem with actually identifying Barry's gender, but the switching between "female" in the Early Life section and "male" everywhere else just seems to be inconsistent. USS Stingray (talk) 04:13, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Since Barry self-identified and lived as a male, he should be referred to as male. I made this article consistent before, but people keep changing it. Asarelah (talk) 19:32, 7 March 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Intersexed vs Hermaphrodite

I've changed the word "hermaphrodite" to "intersexed" as it is more PC as well as more accurate. Here is a quote from the Wikipedia article, "Intersexed", discussing the use and meaning of the two words:

"The terms hermaphrodite and pseudohermaphrodite, introduced in the 19th century, are now considered problematic as hermaphrodism refers to people who are both completely male and completely female, something not possible.[4] The phrase 'ambiguous genitalia' refers specifically to genital appearance, but not all intersex conditions result in atypical genital appearance."

142.151.166.169 (talk) 18:09, 15 April 2008 (UTC)