Talk:Jackie Chan/Archive 4

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[edit] Jackie Chan & Buster Keaton?

Someone (more knowledgeable than me) ought to add a paragraph about his influences from early Hollywood slapstick like Buster Keaton, Three Stooges, Marx Brothers, etc. I know a lot has been written by many critics analyzing the similarities but I don't know if Jackie Chan has ever referred to it himself. I just saw the Legend of Drunken Master and it definitely reminded me of the 3 Stooges.

Also I agree about the injuries list, way too long!216.90.56.122 17:23, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree the Keaton inspiration (not sure about Stooges/Marx Bros) is something often mentioned in documentories and biographies about him, but I'd have to go back to them to verify that he personally claims the similarity. There is the end stunt in Project A: Part 2 which is a clear homage to Keaton, where a wall falls towards him and he steps into the gap made by the window, which I would say means he "referred to it himself". --DrHacky 06:37, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] My plans for a rewrite

I plan to perform an overhaul of the biography. The reason is that the current version seems a bit out of order, with a mention of the 1990s in the 1970s section. At the same time, one section appeared to be blatantly copying from its source, and poses as a copyright problem. Another reason is that a good quality article must have plenty of reliable sources, and the current version lacks it. In fact, as I stated before, it's a work in progress.

Another thing to point out is that I am basing the format of the article on that of Kylie Minogue, a featured article. Since both Jackie Chan and Minogue are both entertainers, it makes perfect sense to model the articles to match the featured one. Cheers--Kylohk 13:46, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

  • And another thing, it should be noted that no one owns any articles on Wikipedia. Hence you should not revert based on comments like "You are editing too much". Any things submitted to Wikipedia can be edited by anyone, as long as it is in good faith. Cheers.--Kylohk 14:01, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
  • As you have mentioned you do not own this page, so please take into consideration what the comunity have contribute to it, before you came up acting like a hero and decided to do it your way. You got no right to do that and as a contributing member i have to right to revert any information you decided to ommit from the page.—Preceding unsigned comment added by DaliusButkus (talk • contribs) 09:26, 11 June, 2006 (UTC)
    • DaliusButkus, you appear to be referencing the #Injury List section above, in which two of three users express support for exactly the kind of edits carried out by Kylohk. If you add Kylohk and I to the support column, and you to the opposes, you end up with a 4 to 2 in support of significantly trimming down the injury list section. You have already been warned on your user talk page for unwarranted reversions on this article and these latest edits are similarly unwarranted. Kylohk appears to have a clear idea of what the relevant policies for biographies, as well as a plan on how to improve the article, while this is the first time you have edited a page besides Jackie Chan and your user page. If you are not willing to work alongside an experienced editor, then please step aside and let Kylohk edit on his own. - BanyanTree 10:37, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
      • I second what BanyanTree said. The "content being there for years" doesn't make it worth keeping, good, fitting to Wikipedia's standards and rules, or even legal. If you can't work with other editors, Dalius Butkus, than you need to back off. If this continues, an administrator will need to be notified of an edit war. Dreadnaught 13:00, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
    • back off from what, just because he have two other friendly editors to back him up, who got nothing to do with the jackie chan wiki page before, coming here to give me a piece of their mind, no way am i backing off from this, he's making major revamping of the page without getting consent from people who were involve in this much earlier then he did, so i will make changes as i see fit, as he is doing.
      • If that was a post from Dalius Butkus:

Having no prior affiliation with the page changes nothing, as it is a matter of common sense. As the above post states, support was shown for a change that would improve the article. The age of content does not mean it cannot be improved. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia that anyone can edit, and being possesive of an article and hampering improvement of Wikipedia's content is against site policy. Dreadnaught 15:19, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Summary of changes

The headings of his biography have been changed to reflect what he mainly achieved in each time period. the 1970s information is the part that has been changed the most. Data in 1980s and 1990s have been detailed, and reliable sources have been added. A cut off point also is made in 1998. Since it seems to signal a new style of film there. Anything that's not released has been moved to the Future projects area. Personal Life and Stunts have been moved to separate sections. The presonal life may be removed if no reliable sources can be found, due to WP:BLP policy.--Kylohk 20:04, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

  • The personal life section has been mentioned in his biography, and the other about his wife in an interview, just because you cannot find it doesnt mean it should be remove.—Preceding unsigned comment added by DaliusButkus (talk • contribs) 09:26, 11 June, 2006 (UTC)
If this is the case, why has the source not been cited? If you want the information in question to remain, offer citations and people will be more likely to support it. MArcane 04:55, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The rationale

  • I understand what you mean, but the "Interesting fact" section appears to be a trivia section. Trivia sections should be avoided in articles, because it makes it difficult to read. This is why I began to rewrite that entire section in paragraph form, with a "generalizing sentence" at the beginning of each paragraph (see WP:HTRIVIA), integrating as much trivia into the relevant section as possible. In fact. I'd separate the injuries list into its own parent article.--Kylohk 10:12, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
I looked at the difference between the edits he made and the revert and they're better, so I reverted. Jeffrey.Kleykamp 15:33, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
The problem is much information is excluded from the original edit, in this case a trivia is needed, stuff like pop culture is also being excluded, i will not condone to a removal of a whole section. DaliusButkus 23:07, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
If you read carefully, you will notice those 4 paragraphs incorporate a lot of the information of the bullet points. Besides, a lot of the trivia have been mentioned in previous sections, so it's not necessary to repeat them again. Trivia should be integrated into relevant parts of the article, and things that can't, should be discarded, if they aren't that significant.--Kylohk 09:01, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Add a new section titled jackie chan in popular culture, and include the facts about dragonball, tekken, his stunt videogames, remove the hitmonchan and ash kung fu song from his celebrity status and put it in the popular culture section, also references to the ultimate fight that have been remove put it here, there's plenty of references you can find online, if you need help let me know.
In popular culture is considered as a trivia section in Wikipedia. As before, any information should be incorporated into the related section. Often, mentions of an actor in popular culture is due to his celebrity status, hence the current information has been added there. As for the mentioning the ultimate fight, it may not be neutral, since different websites and critics have different views on which is the greatest fight. (Although if it were Jackie Chan's own opinion, it can go to the respective part of his timeline.) However, I believe that Jackie Chan's fashion line should be mentioned.--Kylohk 09:22, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
As i said, include all those information above that had been ommited, they are relevant, i would do it if you don't, but since you got it going you can make it consistent to the style of the article.
Tekken and the fashion line are now mentioned. his stunt video game can be found at the "Acting Career" section. I'll go look for a source about Dragon Ball.--Kylohk 13:13, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
A creditable source from a shonen jump magazine interview had already been reference before, search the history.

[edit] Removal of Injury List

Here's an even bolder idea. Let's remove this injury list. It has been tagged as an unencyclopedic entry for several months, and the extent of Jackie Chan's injuries have been outlined in the stunts section. At most, the injury list should be separated into its own article.--Kylohk 19:17, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New Edit

well done everyone for re-editing this page, recently i havent been happy with the large trivia section or the incomplete and informal injury list. I love the new version of the page with the trivia added into paragraphs and the re-organised sections, well done all! :) Nathan 13:44, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

  • I'm pleased that you like the new article. My ultimate plan is for it to be featured, but of course, more Peer Reviews and brush ups may be needed.--Kylohk 10:45, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA on hold

Fine article so far. A fair use rationale is needed for the picture of him at Disneyland, and could someone fix this sentence: "In New Police Story, there are several scenes where he was badly drunk and weeping for his murdered colleagues". Change it to "he portrayed a character suffering from alcoholism and mourning his murdered colleagues". I'm in two minds about passing it, because there is no mention of how heavily criticised Chan's American films are. Alientraveller 16:29, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Your two requests have been met, as for the criticisms of Chan in America, I'll go and look it up.--Kylohk 17:12, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
I kind of get what you mean by "heavy criticism". It seems that much of the criticism of Jackie Chan is that his action is significantly toned down. I'll add that.--Kylohk 17:26, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Well done. Alientraveller 17:58, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Further Reading

Should this be added to the further reading section?

Jackie Chan: My Story at the Internet Movie Database ASIN B000067JH1

132.205.44.5 22:40, 6 July 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Couple of things

1) Hi Kylohk - you removed a paragraph I'd added mentioning the Lo Wei-era films:

Between 1976 and 1978, the Lo Wei Motion Picture Company produced several further films featuring Chan, Shaolin Chamber of Death, Killer Meteors (alongside Jimmy Wang Yu) To Kill with Intrigue and Magnificent Bodyguards. During this period, Chan also appeared in smaller roles in several other films, including a supporting role in the Golden Harvest release, Hand Of Death, an early film from director John Woo.

I understand your reasoning for removing this listy paragraph. However, I'd argue that there are a couple of pertinent points worth keeping. Namely:

a) the fact that he acted in Killer Meteors with Jimmy Wang Yu, who we later mention as sorting out Chan's dispute with Lo Wei. It is a common misconception that Chan repaid Wang by appearing in 3 films for him, one of which being Killer Meteors. In fact Chan only appeared in 2 films to repay Wang (Fantasy Mission Force and Island of Fire), whereas Meteors was released long before the dispute occurred. It also gives a sense of how they knew each other before Wang's mediation.

b) I think Chan's appearance in John Woo's Hand of Death is notable as it is not a particularly well-known fact, and interesting that these 2 major figures of Hong Kong cinema worked together during Woo's early directing career.

Please consider putting these points back into the article.

2) In the opening paragraph, it lists Chan as a "comedian", but to me "comedian" implies stand-up and joke telling. He could be credited as being a "comedy actor", but as some of his roles are more serious, I would probably avoid this too. It's more that he has been in films of the "action comedy" genre, rather than being a true comedian. Gram123 11:55, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

  • Good evening. I've readded that paragraph, and added 2 references to them. So, they are now arranged in proper chronological order. AS for the word comedian, I've removed it. I agree that Jackie Chan is no longer 100% funny content, so that shouldn't be there. Have a nice day.--Kylohk 13:15, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jackie Chan Adventures

I'm pretty sure James Sie voiced the fictional Jackie. The article says Chan himself did it. The only thing he did was appear at the end and be absolutely adorable.

[edit] Family and infidelity

Family and extramarital sex has great impact in his life. He has great care of the performance career of his son, Jaycee Chan. His extramarital sex with Miss Asia Pageant of 1990, Elaine Ng (Ng Yi Lei), caused great damage to his fame among Chinese communities, also ruined his effort to be a role model for youths. His hostile attitude to the birth of his illicit daughter Etta Ng (Ng Chok Lam) was highly criticised by public. Missing these pieces of information makes the article incomplete. — HenryLi (Talk) 12:16, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

You have to be aware of the updated WP:BLP policy. Even if some information is true, and is reliably sourced, it may not be suitable for the encyclopedia.--Kylohk 13:09, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Those are pure gossips and speculations especially in relation to his so called ilegitimate daughter, and stuff related to his private life should be left out. As for how his image have been affected is again pure Pov, and doesnt hold any credence in an encyclopedic article.--DaliusButkus 13:16, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
A lot of sports stars and other famous people have personal life sections in their articles. However, the notable facts about Jackie Chan's personal life are rather controversial, and if it's reported by gossip magazines, it shouldn't be included per WP:BLP, whose objective now has expanded to avoid causing harm to the living person mentioned.--Kylohk 13:22, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
"A former Miss Asia (1990) who gave birth to a daughter, Etta Ng Chok Lam (b. November 19,1999). The Hong Kong media alleged that the father was Jackie Chan,[1][2] although there has as yet been no verification by either party involved." Here's the quote from an article, which means it's most likely a hoax, or pure speculation.--DaliusButkus 13:24, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
I remember that article. It was probably from Next Magazine, a "gossip magazine". I did not remember any credible newspapers mentioning that case.--Kylohk 13:39, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
As far as I remember, it is widely publicised in newspapers, radio and television programmes, especially in Chinese and Cantonese media. His act was commented by some notable persons. (CHA Leung Yung/Louis CHA has explained the difference between 風流 and 下流.). A few English articles had left a mark on the matter. The Little Guy's Greatest Stunt (from Time Asia) (from China Daily) Jackie Chan (from IMDB) Jackie Chan — HenryLi (Talk) 07:28, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
As said they are all pure speculation, none of those articles could confirm your allegations, neither was it ever proven that he had a daughter, something as simple as a paternity test could reveal.--DaliusButkus 01:44, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Copyedited...

I've copyedited the entire article. As a note, the reflist and references formats were disrupted, so while the correct template is listed here to do columns, the columns do not work, and the problem is evident on other articles. MSJapan 15:16, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

This article, or a portion of it, was copyedited by the League of Copyeditors in July 2007. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
  • Copyeditor(s): MSJapan 15:22, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Never won a HK Film Award?

There is a sentence stating:

"However, he has never won a Hong Kong Film Award, despite being nominated ten times between 1985 and 2005."

If this means for Best Actor, it needs to be clarified. Who Am I? won Best Action Coreography at the 1999 HKFA, and Chan was action coreographer and stunt co-ordinator on that film (with Willem de Beukelaer as vehicle stunt co-ordinator). See here. Gram123 10:15, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

  • Yes, it must mean Best Actor. Jackie Chan keep failing those nominations.--Kylohk 10:36, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Either way, I've removed that sentence, since Jackie Chan's Golden Horse Best Actor award kind of nullifies the need for it.--Kylohk 02:20, 25 July 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Personal Life

I think it should be mentioned that he is married with one legitamate son. This is a signifigant biographic fact

Shannie

  • I say yes, a little info about his son and spouse might be appropriate, i feel theres alot more information about jackie chan that could still be contributed to the article, but seeing as to how it's undergoing FA grading i do not dare edit it at the moment, maybe someone with better know how on it's formating etc could?--DaliusButkus 21:04, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Don't forget the controversies surrounding his illegitimate daughter with former Miss Asia (1990) 吳綺莉.
    • Note the policy on biographies of living persons. Controversial material should be backed up by reliable sources (tabloids and similar magazines aren't included), also, even if something is true, it must be relevant to the encylopedia article of the subject, so I won't delve too deeply into his scandals.--Kylohk 14:11, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
I added the Personal Life section and put in some basic info about his wife and son to get things started. I got the info from http://www.jackiechan.com/about/about_bio.html. I considered putting in something about his alleged mistress and daughter, but I decided it would be best for me not to touch that with a 10-foot pole.
Any editor more knowledgable than me, please add more information to that section and/or clean it up. Evening Breeze 22:02, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
You know, the HK Cable TV Entertainment Channel recently interviewed Jaycee Chan, and I remembered him saying some things about his dad. What a pity I don't have a VCR to tape what he says.--Alasdair 04:00, 11 August 2007 (UTC)