Talk:Italian Radicals
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[edit] Left libertarianism
It seems to me a bit contradictory to claim that the radicali are "left-libertarian", if they describe themselves as liberisti. Also it doesn't seem to accord very well with the alliance between radicali and polo in the early 90s (which I know struck some as incoherent, but I never agreed; I thought it made a lot of sense at the time, given that polo was the only tendency trying to reduce the statist nature of the Italian economy). --Trovatore 07:03, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
- The party slogan is that remembered in the article. The party is liberal in governmental, institutional and judiciary issues, free-market libertarian on economic issues, and left-libertarian (=social-liberal) on social and moral issues. What is strange? Also in the US there is a party that combines economic libertarianism with social liberalism: the Libertarian Party. The political position of Radicals in Italy could be contradictory, but why a liberal party has to be liberal only on economic issues and not on social issues? Certainly that position is difficult to sustain for Radicals, as that for the US Libertarian Party, becuase both the right and the left disagree with half of their program. That is why, between 1995 and 2006 (11 years), Radicals were affiliated neither with the centre-right nor with the centre-left. Now Radicals are part of the centre-left alliance, but I am sure that they will fit best in the centre-right: they will reinforce the free-market tendency represented by Forza Italia and they will gain some important results on the economic side (half of their program). In the centre-left they will probably gain nothing on the social side for the opposition of Democracy is Freedom and other centrists, so it is probably better to join forces with the centre-right in order to make real at least half of their ideas. More in the centre-right they will reinforce a social-liberal tendency, which is minoritary but not negligible. --Checco 09:18, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
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- I don't know much about the Italian Radicals, but I know something about left-libertarianism and social-liberalism: they are not issue stances (like Social conservatism is, it is just being conservative in social and ethical matters), but they are fully fledged ideologies (social-liberalism sees "a role for the State in providing positive liberty for individuals." by investing in social welfare, education and health care and left-libertarianism goes a bit further and wants f.i. to give every one a basic income to make them free(er)). So one can only be a social-liberal or left-libertarian if one is oriented at such policies, using state intervention to make people free, by fighting trusts, or investing in education or reducing the power of the church. It is all about combining government intervention and free market economics to make individuals free. I don't know where the Italian radicals go then, but esp. Rosa nel Pugno appears to be social-liberal in that sense. C mon 12:09, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Responding mostly to Checco here: While those (like me) who identify with the US Libertarian Party tend to reject the right-left spectrum entirely, it would be quite unusual to describe the LP as "left-libertarian". It's generally thought of as right-libertarian (although "socially liberal" in the American sense of the word, meaning a disinclination to meddle in people's personal/cultural/sexual/pharmaceutical choices). If the RI are really analogous to the LP, then I think the claim that their ideology is "a form of left-libertarianism" is misleading, at least to American readers. --Trovatore 12:43, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
- You are right, but in Europe things are quite different, as I said before. Anyway what we call "libertarismo" is a political ideology that underlines personal, cultural, sexual and pharmaceutical choice. This political ideology is historically connected with anarchism, libertarian socialism and the left, but also Radicals consider it one of their ideological pillars. These pillars are "liberalismo" (=liberalism), "liberismo" (=liberism, economic libertarianism) and "libertarismo" (=?). The first two are connected respectively with the organization of the state (political system, electoral system, judiciary, individual rights...) and the economy. The third is intended to descibe socially liberal (and anti-clerical) tendencies about moral and social issues. Our discussion is eminently about the meanings of terms in different contexts. Anyway I know something about US politics and If I were an American, I will call Radicals as simply libertarians, in all spheres of government. I think that it will be correct to translate "libertarismo" in social liberalism, underlinig that Radicals are socially liberal only about moral and social issues. --Checco 14:20, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
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- I would like to emphasize that the Italian Liberal Reformers are certainly more similar to the US libertarian party, than the Italian Radicals. C mon 14:27, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
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- I forgot to say that in Italy "libertarismo" is a synonim of "anti-proibizionismo" (=anti-prohibition?), which means support for the legalization of abortion, stem-cell research, drug use, alcohol sale and use, pronstitution, gay rights and so on. In order to reach these goals, Radicals (and "libertari" in general) promote civil disobedience and other forms of nonviolent resistance, among them hunger strike in the form of Satyagraha. About Liberal Reformers it is to say that they are a split of Italian Radicals, a split happened not for ideological disagreements but almost only for tactical reasons (what coalition to join). Both parties are part of the Transnational Radical Party and some Liberal Reformers are still members of Italian Radicals. --Checco 14:40, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] liberismo vs American libertarianism
Hi Checco, I don't quite follow your most recent edit summary. Are you saying that liberismo has connotations other than economic? I had thought of it as meaning just "free market", and that it did not comport, for example, the elimination of laws against victimless crime. --Trovatore 04:45, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- I'm sure that Italian Radicals are wholly libertarians, even if the recent alliance with the left-wing softened their stances. It is true that "liberism" has a mostly economic connotation, but it doesn't mean only support for the free-market. Anyway, even if I prefer the current version, I won't find problematic if you change that paragraph. After all it is the only part of the article which was not written by me! --Checco 05:11, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- What do you think about the liberism article and especially on the sentence saying "liberism overlaps with other concepts such as free trade, neoliberalism, libertarianism and the French notion of laissez-faire"? --Checco 16:18, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- Well, to be honest I have never heard the word used in American political discourse. Not sure about elsewhere in the English-speaking world, but I doubt it's much used. Is there really a separate concept under the name liberism that deserves an article, as opposed to maybe a mention of the word and of Sartori at some article like classical liberalism? --Trovatore 18:25, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- I really don't know. As you I never heard of liberism before today. --Checco 21:30, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- Well, to be honest I have never heard the word used in American political discourse. Not sure about elsewhere in the English-speaking world, but I doubt it's much used. Is there really a separate concept under the name liberism that deserves an article, as opposed to maybe a mention of the word and of Sartori at some article like classical liberalism? --Trovatore 18:25, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- What do you think about the liberism article and especially on the sentence saying "liberism overlaps with other concepts such as free trade, neoliberalism, libertarianism and the French notion of laissez-faire"? --Checco 16:18, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
