Talk:Israeli-Palestinian conflict/Archive 11

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents 1 capture vs. occupation 2 Disputed vs. Occupied, yet again... 2.1 Jaakobou's argument 2.2 Revised wording 3 RfC: On the use of the term "occupied" 4 RfC: On the use of the term "occupied" (2nd try) 4.1 Statements by editors previously involved in dispute 4.1.1 Preference to use term occupation 4.1.2 Preference not to use term occupation 4.1.3 Comments 4.1.4 Suggestion 4.2 further debate, and another idea 4.3 Possible solution 4.4 responses 4.4.1 further debate, and compromise 4.4.2 Other comments 5 <sigh> "Occupation" again, and Introduction 6 "Disputed" vs. "Occupied"

capture vs. occupation

see here [1] to continue discussion. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 15:01, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Disputed vs. Occupied, yet again...

Jaakobou, why did you do this? There were two RfCs on the issue and a solution to which everybody involved (you somehow stepped out of the discussion -- did you lose interest?) agreed to was found. Why are you all of a sudden re-introducing this terminology?

I seriously hope, for your own sake, that you are not trying to start another edit-war.

Cheers, pedro gonnet - talk - 24.01.2008 15:01

it needs to say 'occupied' and it needs to link to the page about the "occupation", i think we (i was reading though not commenting on it then) went through all this already and that came up as a very good solution. theres no rule against re-opening debates but i think ts in very poor taste to edit something out that you KNOW will cause trouble without discussing it first and when there is a recent consensus. SJMNY (talk) 21:35, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Pedro Gonnet and SJMNY,

1. I'm not aware of any recent consensus, my apologies if i missed something of value.
2. I can't see why "it needs to say 'occupied'" and I find that phrasing combative.
   1. The contested settlements are built on Israeli land (settler perspective), Occupied land (Palestinian perspective) and the political status of these settlements is clearly a matter of 'dispute of territory' that will be resolved only if the regional culture changes.
   2. Side-to-side POV exchanges [3] -- replacing the Ultra-Zionist perspective with the Palestinian-nationalist one -- are certainly not helpful for creating a neutral encyclopedia.

I don't quite see any reason why one narrative should dominate over the other here in a paragraph that starts with: "Core issues in the conflict as seen by both sides are...". Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 00:23, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Pedro is right. the existing wording is the result of a compromise which i arrived at with him, and with input from several other editors. So I really would ask that we leave it as it is. thanks. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 02:05, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd agree to leave it if you could explain to me how a paragraph starting with [*above*] can allow one narrative to be dominant over the other. I don't have a problem with the occupation narrative being well represented, but this paragraph is supposed to be a generic presentation of the middle ground between the participants. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 02:11, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

you say you are "not aware of a consensus", then what would you call that huge highlighted section above called "RfC: On the use of the term "occupied" (2nd try)"? SJMNY (talk) 05:23, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi, as Jaakobou's mentor I've been asked to weigh in. Would you please supply links to the two RFCs? Jaakobou, if these RFCs really are what the other editors say they are, then consensus wording stands until/unless a new consensus emerges. Durova^Charge! 07:58, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi User:Durova, the RfCs are both on this very page. The first one failed because User:Jaakobou didn't like the form. The second one, in which User:Jaakobou participated (I counted 6 contributions in total) and which he himself closed (note the version that he accepts), concluded with the solution presented here. There is no reasonable argument within good faith that User:Jaakobou did not know about the RfC and its solution.

Cheers, pedro gonnet - talk - 25.01.2008 08:10

I agree that WP:AGF is not an acceptable explanation here.

Additionnaly, there is no subject of debate on this issue. Anybody, whether he agrees or not with that, knows that Cisjordan and Gaza are named occupied territories by the big majority of media, politicians and international organisations.

Ceedjee (talk) 10:24, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the memory jog SJMNY,
My personal perception of that RfC is that it was not on the overall use of 'occupied' wherever you want it but rather on a certain paragraph - (see 'original version'). As the arguments were going nowhere, I've decided to agree on that version "Israel declared its independence. Five Arab...The status of the city as Israel's capital and the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip has remained a source of bitter conflict.".

Anyways, giving it a second look, I see GHcool, Armon and Hertz1888 were clearly supporting my motion and there doesn't seem to be any clear consensus as Pedro Gonnet and SJMNY (were you part of the discussions?) suggest.

Staying topical (and repeating myself a little), I don't believe a paragraph that presents the issues from the perspectives of the rivals, should give one perspective dominance over the other. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 11:03, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Ceedjee, This paragraph is not about the media's general terminology but rather on the perspective of the two disputants. In israel, the term "Yesha" (and it's derivatives) exists far more often than the term "occupied", and "disputed territories" is mentioned quite often also in it's shorter version. i.e. "territories". Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 11:09, 25 January 2008 (UTC) correction of text 12:03, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

all these folks are right . "Occupied Territories" is the main term used by most govrnments and organizations. The reason for that is that these territories are clearly not part of Israel proper; if they were, everyone there would have Israeli voting rights, which clearly they don't have. So "Occupied" is simply a diplomatic term, denoting the fact that there is currently no nation which considers this territory to be within its own official national borders. So that's why i agreed to the use of "Occupied." Bascially, I consider this term well-founded, and also, when it comes to indivudal terms, I don't wrangle over single words, as long as my side's viewpoints or concerns can be expressed somewhere in the article. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 14:13, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

This is getting a bit uncomfortable. The reason I'm repeating myself is because you're ignoring what I'm saying. I have full understanding of the international perspective - however, a paragraph that states "as seen by both sides", not "as seen by the international community", needs to avoid the pushing of either "Yesha" or "Occupation" narratives or I'm sure this paragraph will be a source for disputes in the future (with future wikipedians) also. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 16:35, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

In that case, write that for "some people to specify", 'occupied territories' are in fact 'disputed'... but explain who states this and what it means (with source at each time). Ceedjee (talk) 17:12, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

i thought the point of linking occupation to the occupied territories article was to allow people to read about the dispute there and keep it out of the opening here? that seems sensible to me at least SJMNY (talk) 07:46, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

SJMNY, with that logic, the obvious motion would be "why not link it to yesha and explain the dispute there?". I'm looking for a more long term neutral dispute.

Ceedjee, your suggestion maybe balances the text a little, but it's not enough to make it neutral. If you want to change the paragraph's directive, removing "as seen by both sides", then we can probably agree on your suggestion - however, I don't see it as a neutral suggestion considering the phrasing. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 13:43, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Have been trying to stay out of this kind of thing, but what can you do? Jaakobou you are wrong on so many levels here -

1) The phrase is Occupied Territories. This has long been agreed in the wider world, and it seems that most Wikipedia editors have come round to that as well (as if they ever had any right to rewrite the terminology anyway);

2) The phrasing in this paragraph is simply about how the settlements - which it then describes, correctly as per the above, as being in the Occupied Territories - are an issue for both sides. It does not say or even suggest that both sides necessarily define the territories as "Occupied". As usual, partly due to the limitations of your English language skills, your argument isn't quite as clever as you think it is;

3) And actually of course, plenty of individual Israelis, and Israeli sources, do accept the standard terminology and describe the territories as "Occupied" anyway. --Nickhh (talk) 14:47, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Nickhh,

1. Did you just mention "the limitations of [my] English language skills" and "cleverness" of my argument? I honestly don't know how to respond to that.
2. I don't believe your argument is correct, that "plenty" (? more like a clear minority) Israelis promote the occupation narrative. What matters is that the dominant view is [that] the status of these territories (Yesha), esp. the ones with large Israeli settlements (like Ariel) is clearly an issue of dispute. I believe the percentage of the Jewish-Israeli population who would support a second disengagement after the "successful" Gaza disengagement (2005) is practically non-existent.
3. If you want the paragraph to be "simply about the settlements" we can just remove the wiki-link to 'occupied territory' and finish the argument at that... I would even consider it more accurate.

-- Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 17:36, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

The fact that Ariel will hardly be given back to the Palestinian state doesn't change anything to the fact it is in the occupied territories and that these territories are named as such by a majority of people. If you pursue with your argumentation, then you should consider to rename the article Israel because there are in the world people who talk about Zionist entity and following your " "argumentation" ", none should be used. Don't forget you respect NPoV and AGF and that you are not a Yeshivot student practicing pilpul.

Ceedjee (talk) 17:57, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

'clear minority Israelis promote the occupation narrative.'

When facts become a narrative here, wikiworld reels at the discovery that our Jaakobou is now subjecting Israel's colonial history to the rigours of post-modernist analysis! Has the man been reading Jacques Derrida, Edward Said, Tzvetan Todorov, Jean-François Lyotard, in the interim, while waiting for the Arbitration Committee to publish its deliberations? Will everything now have to be recast in terms of 'narratology' theory, which so bemused us three decades ago? I can imagine its extension in articles on Namibia. Lothar von Trotha's Vernichtungsbefehl as a mission civilisatrice as opposed to the Herero's genocide narrative, etc.Nishidani (talk) 18:07, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Ceedjee, we're not discussing whether or not the territories are deemed occupied or not. The issue here, as I've repeated a number of times, is "as seen by both sides". The Israeli mainstream does not support the 'occupation' narrative -- what Nishidani suggests to be part of a larger scheme of "universal facts". I suggested the compromise, per "simply about the settlements" (Nickhh 14:47, 26 January 2008) that we remove the wikilink. I'm open to hear other suggestions that don't give one perspective the upper hand when discussing things from the viewpoint of the disputants. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 19:18, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

And what about the pilpul ? Ceedjee (talk) 20:26, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Jaakobou - whether the territories are occupied or not is exactly what we are discussing, yet again. As I explained above, your argument about "as seen by both sides" is utterly specious and seemingly based upon your inability to understand English grammar and sentence construction. You completely ignored my earlier point about this. The current wording is totally neutral, totally factual and totally clear. I'm assuming good faith here by suggesting your attitude is down to ignorance rather than a malicious desire on your part to pick a tedious fight over an old issue like this. Anyway, I'm not going to discuss this anymore. If you try to change the wording here I will revert it, as will many other editors. End of story. --Nickhh (talk) 09:38, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

comment - obviously we're at a dead-lock over this issue. I see no alternative to a medcab case being open.

p.s. Ceedjee, I request you avoid repetition of that one Hebrew word/expression (only used in rabbinical studies btw) you've recently grown fond of. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 12:42, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually Ceedjee's use is quite proper. It is quite often used in American Jewish novels, and is acceptable English by now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nishidani (talk • contribs) 13:00, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Jaakobou,

You used the term Yesha and you request me not to use the term pilpul.

In France, we don't use this word only in the context of "rabbinical"(*) studies but I never heard about Yesha. I will ask my friends from Yad Vashem to give more details about this.

(*) For your information, pilpul is not used in rabbinical studies but in Talmudic studies. I may wonder if Israel is still a Jewish state nowaydays with too many russian immigrants who are no more Jew than me I think. Ceedjee (talk) 13:26, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Jaakobou's argument

It's been suggested again that as Jaakobou's mentor I ought to step forward. As a neutral outsider, I see one side pointing to two prior RFCs and arguing that the current thread is a disruptive reopening of a matter already settled by consensus. Another side argues that the particular context here makes things more nuanced than that, and delves into a terminological discussion. The former argument looks clear and compelling on its face and I lack the expertise to understand the latter. Would it help to bring in other Israel-Palestine collaboration participants whose content knowledge is greater than my own? It looks like people here are frustrated: please do your best to keep the temperature of discussion down and let's look for solutions. Durova^Charge! 21:13, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

There is at least one other RfC which User:Jaakobou is credibly accused of ignoring - and even encouraging other editors to ignore. He was asked for an explanation (via your good self) of this at his ArbCom, and never presented one. I'm not sure of the history of this remarkably similar case, but this section is already 2,700 words now. Though of course it would be difficult to say how much time-wasting behavior is tolerable.

There is another article where Jaakobou is apparently rejecting the view of every other editor (8 in total) over a period of 16 months. Would it be reasonable to expect you to deal with the situation there as well, and point out that the "Saeb Erekat a liar" narrative has hugely UNDUE weight and, by all consensus, is not worth mentioning? PR^talk 16:10, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Maybe a useful first step would be to figure out where Jaakobou agrees with his opposing interlocutors and clarify his points of disagreement. This will help me gauge the degree to which his arguing has become obstructionist. I'm not sure, but I think he concedes/agrees that 'occupied'/'occupation' is the predominant language in mainstream reliable sources. Further, I think both sides agree that there is a "significant minority" (in WP policy terms) that uses or prefers other language (e.g., 'disputed' territory). Is this correct? If so, then it's a pretty good level of consensus. So where does Jaakobou disagree?

• First, Jaakobou argues (above) that 'occupation' "is a politically charged term, and should be avoided when there is no intention or need to expand on the topic WP:TOPIC." I'm afraid I find this unpersuasive from a WP policy standpoint. Even granting that it's "politically charged" (itself a viewpoint), I do not see that as a reason to second guess the mainstream terminology.
• Second, he seems to be saying that occupation should not be used in a combative (WP:Battle) manner. I gather he means that the term shouldn't be used excessively, to keep battering home the point. Is that right? Ok, I can see this as a editorial concern, perhaps related to Undue Weight. However, I'm inclined to think, since "occupation" is the mainstream term, that when a term is generally needed (not excessively) then 'occupation' would be employed for the encyclopedia's voice. I'm sure this is unsatisfying to those who disagree with the mainstream terminology, but I believe it's the proper way to proceed. Of course, when presenting any given real world viewpoint, they can be quoted and paraphrased with their own terminology.
• Third, he expresses concern about how the situation/terms are characterized. See above re: "as seen by both sides." I see this as a fairly minor and resolvable editorial concern. Somehow, the parties devolve into the larger argument again. Maybe I'm missing something? Within reason, each side gets their own language. Editorially, sometimes that doesn't work. I have no opinion on this specific text.

Summing up. The encyclopedia employs the mainstream terms of the majority of reliable sources. It wouldn't be feasible to argue: if 22% of the sources say 'XYZ' instead of 'occupation', then XYZ should appear 22% of the time in our articles. Nevertheless, it is important to problematize the terminology at certain points, describe the debate and the "significant minority" terminology. In an article as central as this one, the terminology should be broached and, as here, spun out to a longer article(s) on the terminological/discourse aspects of the conflict //per links below//. Hope this is useful and I welcome feedback -- both from Jaakobou, to see if I've fairly reflected your views, and others. Thanks. HG | Talk 16:25, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Just as a side-note, the issue is discussed in the section Israeli-Palestinian conflict#The status of the occupied territories. This was part of the solution to the aforementioned RfC. There are also already other articles that discuss the nomenclature, e.g. Status of territories captured by Israel, International law and the Arab-Israeli conflict and Israeli-occupied territories#Applicability of the term "occupied".

Cheers, pedro gonnet - talk - 28.01.2008 16:32 .....Thanks. //Noted above.

HG's approach sounds excellent. Pedro, your point about the previous RFC is well taken. It's the other side's argument that confuses me right now, and it's best if Jaakobou clarifies that himself. Durova^Charge! 18:45, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure Jaakobou will speak for himself, but I can't see why we're indulging this. This is a non-point, which has come up because of Jaakobou's poor English and inability to understand English sentence construction. It's not a nuanced argument, it's a confused argument, hence the confusion. He seems to think that the "as seen by both sides" refers to the description "occupied". It doesn't - it refers to the fact that "the future of the remaining settlements" is one of the "core issues". --Nickhh (talk) 20:18, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

User:Jaakobou, if you have a suggestion for re-wording, then paste it here, in the discussion, not directly into the article. Your "facts on the ground" approach only foments edit-warring. Seriously, dude, this is a warning: continue to disregard the word and spirit of the last RfArb (i.e. here), and I'm sending you straight to enforcement. Cheers, pedro gonnet - talk - 29.01.2008 09:24

I can't believe both his mentor and HG have offered him the opportunity to expand on his point of view here, and thereby very generously given him the benefit of the doubt. And then, instead of contributing to that debate, he just deletes the reference to occupied territories again, unilaterally. To clarify the content consequences of doing that - the article lost the detail of what settlements were being referred to. Plenty of people refer to towns and cities within Israel proper as being "settlements" - we need the specific reference to the settlements within the occupied territories, otherwise the article is not immediately clear about what settlements are under discussion. --Nickhh (talk) 10:16, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Nickhh, thanks for explaining the grammatical problem w/J's edit. (I also agree that it would be better for him to propose it on Talk rather than do it on the article.) Is there another way to re-edit that sentence and leave out the term "occupied" do you think? For instance, is there a geographical term like "West Bank and Gaza" that might suffice in this case? I'm not saying it has to be modified, I'm just trying to figure out what alternative might exist. Thanks muchly. HG | Talk 18:14, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I fully agree with Nickhh (who I didn't know before).

*We* can also be very kind and look for consensus and suggest people to collaborate. That is easy you know. I do it everyday. But here there are long term disruption based on content issues discussion performed behing the protective shield of WP:AGF whose purpose are to block articles and up-setting other editors.

There are people who want to develop articles, who know the topics, its real difficulties, who have the material, the contacts and the capability of discussing real content issues. Ceedjee (talk) 10:38, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

(Offtopic) Note to all, per WP:CIVIL, please restrict your comments to discussion of article content, not other editors. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 15:38, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

HG,

• I agree that the predominant term is 'occupied'/'occupation'; However, I'm not certain this description fits each and every situation. There are a significant number of reliable sources that prefer use of "[Palestinian/Disputed] territories" instead of "occupied territories". There is also a significant minority (majority in Israel) that prefer the use of "Yesha" and "Judea and Samaria" based terminology.
• 'Occupation' is a politically charged term and should not be overused (at least considered heavily) when there is no intention on a mention of the issues behind it. This is not to second guess reliable sources but prevent wikipedia from over-selling this as an uncontested neutral point. Samples: [4], [5], [6], [7]. We should use this term as the predominant one, just that not to abuse it at every corner you can insert it.
• "as seen by both sides." is the only issue raised here, since the majority of Israelis don't see the 'occupation' narrative as valid, especially now that disengaging the Gaza strip settlements failed to diffuse the conflict. This paragraph, in my opinion lacked respect for the Israeli viewpoint that the settlements are on Jewish homeland territory despite the Arab residents, and that the political status of these settlements is complex -- on a similar note, well placed mentions that many Arabs view all of Israel as Arab land are valid for mention. Therefore, a more neutral link to "political status" rather than "Occupation/Yesha" linkage, will allow the reader a quick jump to the related information and prevent future editorial conflicts like this one Samaria/Occupied.
• Another note/suggestion to make for this issue is that "occupied territories" is an inexact term - they're in the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

If there are no further suggestions/agreement from my dispute counterparts, I don't see any option from further exploration of dispute resolution. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 15:38, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. (a) For your 1st bullet, maybe we should clarify/discuss. Even if a reliable source uses an alternative term, that might justify such a term in the article, but not necessarily. If the source is used for "factual" info rather than to express its own view, then I believe you should still use "occupied" terminology. Only if the source is quoted or paraphrased as a (notable) opinion, or to describe such an opinion, would alternative terms be applicable. Do you see what I mean? (b) Your second bullet seems to be in agreement with my analysis. However, how to stop overuse? As an invested party, I would recommend that you raise the issue on Talk pages and ask for uninvolved editors to judge the overuse. Also, maybe this is the kind of across-the-board item that WP:IPCOLL might address. (c) I'm sympathetic to your 3rd bullet. As I said above, I see this as a minor editorial decision. You all should think about why this has flared up so much. If you don't mind my saying so, maybe you are overly focused on "respect for the Israeli viewpoint" and are taking umbrage, rather narrowly articulating this as a technical question, not one relevant to the overarching consensus. Perhaps you and your interlocutors can soon revisit and settle this. (d) Hmm. Perhaps you are pointing out another technical aspect of how we implement the consensus about mainstream terminology?

I welcome your reply, Jaakobou, and perhaps you could ask Durova esp about my (a) and (b) here. Thanks. HG | Talk 16:13, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I'll take the liberty of disagreeing on a number of points here...

1. Yesha is a Hebrew word and a term not used in English. If you want to disprove this, you'll have to supply some quotes from mainstream English-language sources. You won't find any.
2. Judea and Samaria are very, very badly defined geographical regions.
3. The "Samples" you gave are two CNN interviews in which Ehud Barak and Shaul Mofaz use the term, one editorial, and one article in which none of the terms appear. What are they supposed to mean? Did you even read them?
4. As User:Nickhh was kind enough to point out, the "as seen by both sides" refers to the core issues, not the nomenclature used. We also don't use nationalistic terminology when describing the Palesinians' goals.
5. We agreed in the previous RfC that the term "occupied territories" was commonplace and sufficiently precise when used in this context.

As for your quip regarding WP:CIVIL, everybody here is making a huge effort to be reasonable and polite with you. I suggest you read WP:DICK before floating any more accusations of incivility.

In any case, since I took the time to specifically address you points, I am looking forward to seeing you do likewise.

Cheers, pedro gonnet - talk - 29.01.2008 16:30

Jaakobou you still haven't addressed the point that "as seen by both sides" simply doesn't refer to the phrase "occupied". I think I've mentioned this three times in total, and it's been reinforced again just now by another editor. This very basic fact totally undermines any argument you have about how the agreed usage of "occupied" is somehow different in this context from any other. We know some Israelis used the term "disputed" and this is acknowledged, in the appropriate parts of various articles, as a minority world viewpoint.

Nor do I understand the implied reference to incivility. All I have pointed out in respect of your behaviour as an editor is that a) your understanding of the subtleties of the English sometimes lets you down; and that b) you re-ignited an old war, over a single word, without initially engaging even with people who were being sympathetic to you. Both of these facts are uncontroversial. If I was really going to depart from basic civility I would not be wasting yet more space on a talk page. Or alternatively I would use that space to accuse you of deliberately picking a fight for the sake of it, or in order to start my own ridiculous debate elsewhere about how Wikipedia articles should regularly give weight to the viewpoint that describes Israel as the "Zionist Entity", or Tel Aviv as a "Settlement". --Nickhh (talk) 16:59, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Note. J, N, P, etc: This page shouldn't get preoccupied with counter-points on civility. I suggest that you deal with this in other ways, e.g. user talk, WQA, etc. Why not strikeout or remove this aspect of the conversation, stay focused on the editing issues? Thanks. HG | Talk 17:21, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

HG Staying focused on the editing issues is what plainly disruptive wikilawyering militates against. Sometimes people are simply wrong, since the term disputed is the term endorsed by the highest legal authorities in international law. To mediate on this is rather like mediating between someone who insists on solecistic usage as aceptable, against the majority of native speakers who simply remark that the usage invoked is solecistic. It is not in dispute, in Israeli historiography, that the West Bank was occupied, for the simple reason that before 1967 the Israeli army wasn't there, and afterwards it, and settlers, were, and that is what occupation means in English. That some Israelis hope, by settlement, and subsequent negotiation, to change the status of that territory, or parts of it, from Occupied Palestinian territory (the ICJ term) to Israeli territory, following upon an agreement between the PA and the state of Israel or further military fiat that finds endorsement in international law, is not material to the article being written now. It simply reflects an aspiration, and specifically Israeli jargon, and not the legal perspective of international law, and customary mainstream usage abroad. Jaakobou in short thinks that by allowing the standard term to pass, he is somehow prejudicing future changes in topological denomination, and thus prejudicing Israel's claims. He fails to understand that to admit the de jure status of the area as now existing in no way prejudices future changes, subsequent to negotiations, that may alter the status of these lands. Regards Nishidani (talk) 18:46, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Revised wording

Hi. At the risk of simply being wrong, let me ask a question. Without going into the broader issues of terminology usage, I'm wondering if the disputing parties could state whether they would accept the following language, even if it's not your first choice or preferred wording. By accept, I mean that you would not contest it and even help restore if it gets disrupted (absent further consensus). Here's the idea:

Core issues in the conflict as seen by both sides are the future of the remaining Israeli settlements built in the West Bank occupied territories, the right of return for Palestinian refugees and their descendants, ....

Oh, I left out and Gaza but it could be added after "West Bank" if need be. Also, I still believe the conversation in the preceding section could continue, I don't mean to cut off the discussion of the broader implementation/clarification of the consensus. Thanks. HG | Talk 18:40, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

My personal view is that this wording is broadly OK and accurate, although it may want to include some reference as well to building projects which fall within the boundaries of East Jerusalem rather than the West Bank proper, such as Har Homa (I'm no expert on the technicalities there). Other than that it describes the situation pretty clearly, as there are no settlements in Gaza now. However as a lawyer might say, this is without prejudice to all the arguments deployed above against any change, and without prejudice to the general principle, which is that "Occupied Territories" is the official terminology, not simply the "Palestinian narrative". Nor should it be seen as providing a precedent for Jaakobou or others to fight or bore their way to the removal of the phrase from other pages as well, just because they don't like it and in a bid to chip away at its use on Wikipedia. --Nickhh (talk) 16:05, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Yes, this wording concerns only this specific edit. We assume the good faith of all editors in realizing, as I state above, that this does not deal with broader issues or implementation. That said, I would like to ask you, Jaakobou and Pedro to sign up as members to the new WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration, which aims to quiet the battleground atmosphere with these kinds of articles -- and where we do hope to deal with and clarify the general principle/consensus about "occupied" terminology. Even if you don't plan to contribute much to the WikiProject, as a favor to me, I'd really appreciate that you all sign up temporarily at least to help us clear up the general principle and how it might be implemented. Our discussion above should be a good starting point (close-to-finishing point?). Thank you. HG | Talk 06:34, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm ok with that phrasing. And I suggest this one: settlements built in the West Bank and East Jerusalem Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 13:34, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Provided the East Jerusalem settlements are verifiably a core issue and your interlocutors allow/consent, then it's fine with me. In terms of typing in the consensus edit, I'd appreciate you all giving me the privilege. Jaakobou, thanks for replying. HG | Talk 16:11, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't think the re-wording is better. The settlements-issue is a problem in the conflict because a) the land is occupied and b) the settlements are thus illegal. If we only say that the Settlements are a problem, we're hiding the wider issue.

Furthermore, I don't see why we should have to compromise on this just because one editor doesn't like the word "occupied". Seriously, and this from the same editor who's pushing for harsher language in other articles? There is no justification for changing the wording. Period. pedro gonnet - talk - 01.02.2008 17:23

(outdent) Well, your objection makes sense to me. You're saying that in this sentence, where the "issues of the conflict" is the subject, the occupation aspect is much of what makes the settlements a core issue. Right? So, going back to the consensus about the mainstream language, I'm assuming that the mainstream way to describe this aspect of the conflict involves 'occupation' wording. Let me try it another way then. If I'm reading him right, Jaakobou (perhaps on behalf of a few other editors) is saying that "as seen by both sides" may imply that the Israelis would describe the issues this way. I don't think this is a necessary reading, since the sentence represents the encyclopedic voice and the encyclopedia's choice of language, but I can see the concern. Therefore, we could try another tack. Perhaps the phrase as seen by both sides could be deleted altogether? I'm not sure "both sides" adds much -- who would assume that one side denies that these issues are crucial -- or it could be addressed in a second sentence. (e.g., Both sides recognize these core issues and have grappled with them throughout the attempted peace process. Further tinkering assumed.) What do you think? Thanks for your patience. HG | Talk 18:13, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

At the risk of being seen to say yes to every option, I'd be happy with this too. In fact losing the "as seen by both sides" is probably a better move than losing the "Occupied". As Pedro has pointed out, the fact that the settlements are built on occupied land is precisely what makes them an issue, objectively speaking (it's not because the Palestinians don't like the look of the architecture). I think it might even have been me who added the whole "core issues as seen by both sides .." section in a bid to clarify, very generally, and taking the history of the conflict as read, what the main themes are in the current debate about how the conflict might be resolved (it's fair to say that the majority/mainstream on both "sides" know what problems need to be dealt with, even if they still disagree on exactly how). It probably is superfluous. --Nickhh (talk) 19:00, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't mind a rephrase based on the removal of "as seen by both sides", I think I may have even suggested this above. Pedro, is this suggestion acceptable to you? Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 15:37, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. As per User:Nickhh, remove "as seen from both sides" and keep "occupied". Cheers, pedro gonnet - talk - 04.02.2008 13:23

• Splendid. There is a consensus among active editors to this article, Jaakobou, Nickh, and Pedro Gonnet, to delete the phrase as seen by both sides from the sentence Core issues in the conflict.... (Several other active editors may be read as having given tacit acceptance, including Ceedjee, Durova, Nishidani, SJMNY, Sm8900.)

• It is my view, which need not engender further discussion, that the consensus reflects an understanding that: (a) 'occupied/occupation' territories is terminology used by most mainstream sources and sufficiently encyclopedic. (b) Such terminology may not be suitable in certain narrow situations, though, e.g., when paraphrasing a particular viewpoint, including the Israeli view. (c) The terminology clearly may be needed to describe aspects of the conflict, as in this case, but it shouldn't be used excessively in articles (e.g., when geographic terms are adequate).

• As a matter of good faith editing, editors who accept this consensus are expected to consistently apply and support this consensus wherever there is a question about 'occupied/occupation' terminology regarding the Isr-Pal situation. The consensus may not reflect your preferred choice, but acceptance means (as stated above) you would not contest the edit and even help restore if it gets disrupted (absent further consensus).

As a favor to me and my effort here, active editors are requested to join the new WikiProject set up to promote cooperation among editors on Isr-Pal topics. By joining, you would be affirming the Project but not making any specific time commitment. Thanks very much for your cooperation and patience here. HG | Talk 15:49, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Glad we resolved this issue. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 20:33, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

RfC: On the use of the term "occupied"

restarted here: [8]. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 00:16, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

RfC: On the use of the term "occupied" (2nd try)

closing RFC started 08:22, 29 November 2007, the RfC issue seems to be resolved with the current version. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 20:44, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

<sigh> "Occupation" again, and Introduction

Further to the above, but more generally ... so four random Wikipedia editors in two days of discussion on a talk page disagree with the the standard terminology used for the last 40 years by the UN Security Council, the Red Cross, the US Government, 98% of countries in the world, 90% of the English-language Israeli media etc etc (it's an outright falsehood to say it's mostly used by Palestinians and the left btw) - and suddenly the word "occupied" to describe, er, territory that is occupied, is flung into the dustbin of history and excised from the earlier parts of this article? This is an old, old and very futile debate and I can't believe that it's now going on on this page too. I'd also make the point that a lot of material has been added to the opening paragraph recently by an anon editor, which has left it a bloated and one-sided parody of an introduction, stuffed with references to everything the Palestinians have ever supposedly done wrong, and what they have to do now to "deserve" their own state. For example the relatively trivial - and disputed - textbooks issue does not belong in the introduction to this article; by contrast the issues of Palestinian refugees, Israeli settlements etc do. Don't take my word for it, just look at the coverage of the Annapolis summit if you want to see what issues are really at stake, and what is being discussed by serious people. --Nickhh (talk) 13:11, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

i invite you to give a content based, referenced WP:NOT#OR opinion here: [13].

i don't think that general ranting about everything you don't like with the article will get any content issues resolved. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 18:10, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Neither do I, that's why I started to have a go at cutting back and re-balancing the introduction as well (other editors seem to have started on that as well, so hopefully it will get somewhere). I opened a new section for my comment as it was covering two separate points. And of course I wouldn't have to rant about the "occupation" issue if people didn't continually revisit it every four days or so on different articles ..... --Nickhh (talk) 18:22, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

please try to remember to not replace one perspective with the other, but add the perspective you feel is missing without taking out the other POV. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 18:48, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

"Disputed" vs. "Occupied"

I couldn't help but notice that the article only uses the phrase "Disputed Territories" whereas all the external references use the term "Occupied Territories". Has there been any official decision here on which term to use? The page Status of territories captured by Israel states that the International Court of Justice, the U.S. State Department and the Supreme Court of Israel have ruled that the territories are "occupied"... Cheers, Pedro Gonnet 15:19, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi. sorry, I don't see which items you're referring to. could you tell me which section you mean by "external references"? thanks. --Steve, Sm8900 15:23, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

References 33 and 43 and the B'Tselem link in the "External links" section have it in their titles. Pedro Gonnet 15:31, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok. I think it is possible that you transposed the terms? in your original question you say the refs call it "disputed" but the two references which you cite 33 and 43 both call them "occupied territory". Did you mean that the article calls it "disputed", whereas the references call it "occupied"? thanks. --Steve, Sm8900 16:00, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

You're right, I screwed up. Fixed it now. Cheers and thanks! Pedro Gonnet 16:05, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

No problem. thanks for writing. To answer your question, the Israeli Foregin Ministry and other entities on the Israeli side feel that some parts of the land are occupied Palestinian land, while other parts are simply disputed territory for which no final resolution was ever achieved. So there is dispute over the status of territories in the "disputed" category, and there is also considerable dispute over which territory actually falls into either category. So using the word "disputed" is a way to reflect this overall ambiguity. --Steve, Sm8900 16:10, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I disagree - the wiki article which is linked to under that heading uses 'occupied'. Given this is a summary article, if disputed is going to be used here, then it should be used on the seealso article. That would involve a renaming of that article. Suicup 18:38, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

(outdent)
wiki uses the terminology used by the sources when we say "XXX claimed that...", however, the encyclopedia itself uses neutral terminology. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 18:40, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

This simply is not an issue about "neutrality". You are abusing the concept in order to impose a fringe terminology on this article. Virtually every serious international source and institution - from the UN collectively to individual governments and organisations, as well as most media outlets - uses and understands the phrase "occupied territories". Most other wikipedia articles, quite correctly, use this phrasing. Any dispute about whether the territories are occupied or not is on a par with a dispute about whether the earth is round or not. Give it up Nickhh 18:50, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

(EC) Right, but in this case, what you (Jaakobou) call the "neutral" terminology is a massive violation of WP:NPOV. How would you consider using the "neutral" term Armenian relocation or Armenian deportation preferred by Turkey instead of Armenian genocide? The problem is that this is not a matter of neutrality or taste, but of correctness. Every official body (even the Supreme Court of Israel) except for the Israeli Government (note the difference between the Legislative and Executive) uses the term "occupied territories" (see Status of territories captured by Israel).

Since this issue seems to bounce around every so often, I suggest we just push it through WP:DR and get some final ruling on this.

Cheers, pedro gonnet - talk - 12.11.2007 18:57

Exactly, it's not about random editors adding the qualifier "occupied" in order to make a point, equivalent to describing President Bush as "the inept President" at every opportunity. It is simply the phrase that pretty much the whole world uses to describe these areas. Objecting to it is as absurd as communists saying that the phrase "Red Terror" isn't neutral and should be replaced on wikipedia with the phrase "Red Discipline". I agree there should be some form of authorative ruling on the issue, if only to settle it once and for all. --Nickhh 20:08, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

i've made an edit that you might agree on. in general, i believe the earth round/flat and the armenian genocide/relocation comparisons are at fault to the occasion; i undertand your position but disagree that this opinion is marginalized on such levels as the first or so controversial as the latter. that organizations such as amnesty use the term occupied territory, does not resolve the issue of what parts are occupied (some would say tel aviv is occupied also) and what parts are not. i think we should try to avoid this conflict where possible rather than push the point. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 00:56, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

If the argument is that "occupied" territories is the correct term (as Pedro Gonnet puts it), then I'll gladly accept provided that all of the references to Palestinian "militants" to the correct term: "terrorist." --GHcool 05:17, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry but that's just clouding the issue and is a rather irrelevant attempt to set up some kind of "deal". The terminology "occupied territories" is used, as I have said, by every international body and most world governemnts to identify the areas under discussion. It is also the standard terminology in the mainstream Israel media (see Haaretz and even The Jerusalem Post). The phrase "disputed areas" is used by virtually no-one. The Tel Aviv issue is also a red herring, since in standard discourse it is not included in the areas described as occupied. Saying Tel Aviv is "occupied" is as wrong as describing the West Bank as "disputed", and for exactly the same reasons. This really is a very simple point and has nothing to do with what you or I might think, or our personal opinions on the matter.

By contrast the distinction between "terrorist" and "militant" is far more subjective and nuanced, as you surely know. There is no international standard for whether a group is a "terrorist group" or not. Wikipedia guidance quite rightly suggests that the phrase terrorist should be avoided, for this reason. --Nickhh 08:09, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

(1) GHcool actually brought up a good point explaining how wikipedia terminology works. (2) you'll excuse me if i reject your "expert" assessment on what the israeli media uses (haaretz, the 'anti-national' ultra-leftist paper aside) to describe the territories and what parts of the territories at that. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 10:01, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Hmm... Not looking too good regarding the Israeli media. A quick search on www.jpost.com for the terms "occupied territories" vs. "disputed territories" favours the former by a factor of almost 10 (2331 vs. 246 hits). Care to call the JPost an "'anti-national' ultra-leftist paper"? I think not.

Uhm, and what is exactly the point GHcool made?

Seriously, Jaakobou, if you think you have an argument, lets take this to WP:DR.

Cheers, pedro gonnet - talk - 13.11.2007 10:15

Update: doing the same dance at www.ynetnews.com (the Enlish language online verison of Yedioth Ahronoth) gives an even worse ratio (270 vs. 19 hits). Cheers, pedro gonnet - talk - 13.11.2007 10:23

are you going to lookup hebrew sources also because i do believe israel's main language is hebrew and a quick search (in ynet) finds more than 5 the term "judea and shamaria" [14] (in ynet) over "occupied territories" [15].

p.s. like i said earlier, i think we should try to avoid this conflict where possible rather than push the point.

p.p.s. i still think my (reverted without a comment [16]) edit was fair to both sides. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 10:39, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, last time I checked, this was still the English language Wikipedia, so I think what all these papers call it in English is what's relevant. I'm all for staying on topic and moving on to WP:DR if you don't mind. Cheers, pedro gonnet - talk - 13.11.2007 10:55

(Reset) However of course this is the English wikipedia. In the English language, and probably in translation from most other languages (whether that includes Hebrew or not), the phrase is "occupied territories". This will apply even more when we look at official government and other third party positions, rather than simply media sources in the country that is doing the occupying. Again this is not a point about whether you, I or anyone else thinks this terminology is accurate or not. The point is that this IS the terminology. And as a result there's no need to find a middle ground which is "fair to both sides", as if there is a genuine debate over this. --Nickhh 10:54, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

please go over my arguments, it's a tad tiresome to repeat them while they are being ignored. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 12:06, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

We have gone over your arguments and refuted them. If you're still not happy, then don't just restate (or refer to) your arguments: If you think we don't understand them, then rephrase or illustrate them such that we may. If you think we have understood them, yet you don't understand our argument, then try to refute our refutations. This is the way discussion works. Cheers, pedro gonnet - talk - 13.11.2007 12:23

here [17]. you are free to open an RfC btw. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 15:41, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Aha, so your argument is that the term "occupied territories" leaves room to interpretation as to the extent of these territories. Well, the definition of "occupied territories" is pretty clear -- territories which Israel is occupying, according to the definition in Occupied territories:

“

Occupied territories is a term used by advocates who assert that a region has been taken over illegitimately by a sovereign power (compare disputed area). It is distinguished from a colony where there is no war, conquest (meaning military), or sovereignty of the territory.

”

Which would, it seems, exclude Tel Aviv but would apply, for instance, to the Golan Heights, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Now, by the same token, if you think "disputed territories" is a better term, you're going to have to make the case that it is less ambiguous then "occupied territories". Cheers, pedro gonnet - talk - 13.11.2007 15:51

Would it be enough to make a case that "disputed territories" is more NPOV and equally accurate? From what I gather in the mainstream media, the Golan Heights is not generally included in current discourse by the phrase "occupied territories" because it is not Palestinian land. The Old City of Jerusalem doesn't count either in ordinary discourse. Furthermore, a strong case can be made that the capture of Gaza and the West Bank during the Six-Day War was not illegal or illegitimate. Gaza was captured from Egypt and the West Bank from Jordan; two enemy nations that started a war against Israel just. Furthermore, Palestinian Arabs from both territories faught in that war and prior to it against Israelis. The same can be said for Syria and the Golan Heights. In short, "occupied territories" favors the Palestinian point of view while "disputed territories" describes the international status of the territories. --GHcool 22:57, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

As you probably know, the acquisition of territory through warfare is, since the establishment of the League of Nations, a big fat no-no. So no "strong case" here. "Occupied", according to Wikipedia's own definition (quoted above) is NPOV and accurate, whereas "disputed" is a huge can of worms that one-sidedly favours the Israeli government (as opposed to legislative) by obfuscating the legal status of the territories in question.

On a side note, it is kind of useless to argue that "occupied territories" isn't specific of what territories are meant (it is not: the definition makes it pretty clear that it is all territories unlawfully under Israel's control). The wording "disputed territories" does not amend this perceived problem.

Cheers, pedro gonnet - talk - 14.11.2007 08:28

Will you PLEASE stop missing the point quite so spectacularly? It is utterly irrelevant whether you happen to prefer a certain phrasing, or whether in your view that phrasing is more NPOV or not. For the 14th time, the standard phrasing in 99% of all official and media discussion of this issue throughout the planet is "occupied territories", or referring to a subtly different area, "Palestinian territories". Both phrasings for example would include the West Bank, but exclude Tel Aviv. Any attempt by any editor to impose alternative phrasing constitutes original research. The fact that some elements of the Israeli establishment and the extremist right-wing blogosphere have tried to push the phrase "disputed territories" is interesting and relevant, and is rightly referred to in several wikipedia articles, however that terminology should not be allowed to replace the standard one, on the whim of one or two editors here. --Nickhh 08:31, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

(ps: our comments seem to have crossed Pedro .. my plea for relevance was of course addressed to GHCool's prior comment, and also to Jaakabou's posts) --Nickhh 10:30, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

you're both missing the point, this is not the article to fight over these issues. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 10:35, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Dude, you are the one who brought this up here two days ago. If you want to take it elsewhere (I still strongly suggest WP:DR), be my guest. pedro gonnet - talk - 14.11.2007 10:38

i followed a POV edit that changed "disputed" to "occupied" [18]. you are free to open up an RfC to this issue. i still don't see the problem with my suggested compromise [19] which you reverted with the suggestion that i've gone mad. [20] Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 12:25, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

No, that wasn't a "POV edit". In the whole article the term "occupied territories" is used. Somebody introduced a section with the term "disputed territories", which was corrected to match the status quo of the article.

The problem with your "suggested compromise" is that it is a compromise between a correct terminology and an incorrect, biased terminology. If there is a correct terminology, then there is no need for a compromise to suit your POV.

Furthermore, I suggested you were off your rocker for your blatantly incorrect edit summary, insinuating that we had agreed in the talk. Cheers, pedro gonnet - talk - 14.11.2007 12:56

Trying to shed light rather than heat. It is genuinely problematic, but there are a few things to hold on to: 1- "occupied" does not imply "illegitimate" and never did - Japan and Germany were occupied after WWII and nobody claimed it was illegal, at least nobody other than Nazis made that claim as far as I know. 2- The internationally accepted legal definition of occupied territory, which seems to apply everywhere except in Israel, is territory of a sovereign country that is occupied by another sovereign country (see applicable Hague convention). Nobody has ever amended that definition. No sovereign countries have a recognized claim to the West Bank other than Israel. Syria considers that the West Bank (and Israel) is southern Syria and Lebanon is Western Syria, but Wikipedia is probably not about to recognize that claim. Jordan relinquished its claim to the West Bank. Egypt doesn't claim Gaza even if it is occupied. That leaves the Golan as indisputably occupied territory. 3- ICJ can only issue legally binding rulings on cases between sovereigns who have brought their case to the ICJ for resolution, or if the UN SC asks for a binding ruling. The ICJ has never issued any such ruling regarding the territories in question. The ruling on the security fence was not binding and is not international law. 4- Unfortunately, "disputed territories" is an "official" term used only by Israeli government at one time and now used mostly by right wing Israel partisans. Using that term therefore indicates bias.

5-The use of the term by Ha'aretz and some other Israeli sources is indicative of two things. A) They are translating from Hebrew, where there are several possibilities - "shtachim Kvushim" means conquered or occupied territories. "Muchzakim" means "held" and is generally translated as "administered territories" There is no word for "occupation" in Hebrew. B) Ha'aretz has a definite political bias against the occupation/conquest/ and therefore uses this term deliberately.

6- Ariel Sharon used the word "Kibush" (literally conquest) meaning "occupation" and translated as such. The best way to avoid an article or articles that sound like propaganda is to refer to specific areas like the West bank or Golan heights, or to say "territories conquered by Israel in the 6 Day War." It also makes a difference if a term like "occupation" is used once or twice in an article, or if it is used over and over in inappropriate places and contexts.

7- The Israeli Supreme court has ruled that some aspects of international law applied to the territories. I doubt very much if the original Hebrew text of their rulings uses the words "Occupied territories" - the Israeli Supreme Court does not write any judgments in the English language. At variance with the ICJ, the Israeli supreme court ruled that the separation/security/fence/wall whatever is not illegal.

The article should have a discussion of the issue of terminology - citing the pros and cons and the relevant authorities. Eugene Rostow had something to say on the matter. Mewnews (talk) 01:23, 3 February 2008