Talk:Israel Defense Forces ranks

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Is it possible to have translations of the Hebrew terms for IDF ranks along with their western equivilants. For example "Rav Aluf" means "Great Champion" not Lieutenant General.

Contents 1 Table of Ranks 2 spelling mistakes? 3 Nagad Versus Mashak 4 Possible improvements 5 Unit command in the IDF 6 Private 1st-class

[edit] Table of Ranks

I have changed the table of ranks and added IDF temlate to the article --DimaY2K 14:34, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] spelling mistakes?

Why the hell is טוראי written with a ת? It's not only there.
why is סמל written as an acronym for סגן מחוץ למניין? The Hebrew page does not give any reason to believe that it is an acronym. In any case, סגן מחוץ למניין makes no sense. Draganta (talk) 07:45, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

סמל was originally an acronym for סגן מחוץ למניין which can be loosely translated as "not-counted lieutenant" or such. It's been in use for so long that it's no longer considered an acronym, but a separate word (much like "laser")Eyl (talk) 14:36, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

It obviously has been long enough that my father (who served in צה"ל the late 70's/early 80's) never heard of it. Draganta (talk) 19:21, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Nagad Versus Mashak

In IDF there is a big difference between rank and position. many posiotons have names identical to ranks, but there is no actual connection between the two, i.e. Samal (sergant) can refer to a rank or a position. Mashak is someone in commanding position which is not an officer, rufly and inaccurately translated to Non-Commissioned Officers. (A non-officer commander is more appropriate). The ranks of Nagad are achived by those who serve for more then 3 years (mandatory service), but have not gone through Officer's training. It is a proffesional rate, which represents both expirience and proffessional achivements. It is wrong to call them Non-Commissioned Officers, because most of them do not hold actual commanding authority, but instead only oversee the working of regular soldiers in assingment assigned ot them, or have disciplinary jobs.

Personaly I think it would be most fitting, in the intrest of accuracy, to note this in notes, and change the "Non-Commissioned Officers" title to "Nagad (see notes)". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.139.55.193 (talk) 13:31, 31 December 2006 (UTC).

It's true that there is a big difference between mashak and nagad, but there are two things to take note of: firstly, both are translated as non-commissioned officer into English by the most notable dictionaries. Secondly, most nagadim do have commanding positions, at least moreso than mashakim. Even if they don't act as commanders and only oversee the work of younger soldiers, they are often still officially considered commanders and may issue orders to lesser ranks.

I think 'senior non-commissioned officer' would indeed be appropriate for nagad (as several editors have previously suggested in their edits), however, it is not an official translation so I'm not sure how fitting it would be for use on Wikipedia.

-- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 16:33, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Possible improvements

1) It would be interesting to have literal translations of ranks included 2) It would be useful to have duties of NCO ranks given, to better make a comparison with other armies. Otherwise it is not clear, especially since promotion to corporal is apparently automatic. 3) There should be an explanation of what an "academic officer" is. 129.12.200.49 22:45, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unit command in the IDF

I'm not 100% sure what officers command what size units during wartime (I'm combat support), but in the IDF's regular structure, the Aluf commands branches and directorates (Amash, Aman, Amatz, etc.), while Tatei Aluf command corps (חילות), such as Hamatz, Haman, Modash or Hir. Alufei Mishne command brigades, like Golani and Paratroopers. Therefore, by some interpretations (and according to HeWiki), Aluf Mishne is actually a Brig. Gen. and Tat Aluf is a Maj. Gen. This isn't widely accepted and therefore not used here, but just FYI this is the correct command structure as of 2007. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 19:51, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Private 1st-class

A cite is needed as to when this rank became defunct. The article states this happened in 1999, but I enlisted in 1995, but AFAIK it was only in use in the 70s; I can personally attest it was out of use by 1995. Eyl (talk) 14:39, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Interestingly, a general staff order (#3.0257), which was last updated in 1998, mentions several times a PFC rank. Therefore, the 1999 figure seems accurate. Not sure though, I haven't been to the army that long ago. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 20:13, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

The rank was kept "on the books" at the time, but it wasn't in actual use (i.e. it appeared on rank charts, but no-one actually got the rank - promotions were directly from private to corporal)--Eyl (talk) 11:00, 13 March 2008 (UTC)