Talk:Iranian Azeris

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Iranian Azeris article.
Article policies
WikiProject Iran Iranian Azeris is part of WikiProject Iran, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Iran-related topics. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of objectives.
Start This article has been rated as start-Class on the Project's quality scale.
Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the Project's importance scale.
After rating the article, please provide a short summary on the article's ratings summary page to explain your ratings and/or identify the strengths and weaknesses.

Contents

[edit] Azeris in Iran

This seems really repetitive and doesnt seem to add anymore information than already exists in other articles regarding Azari's. Should this page be deleted? I have nothing against the material on this page, infact, I'm willing to add to it and make it better, but I think its best if we atleast merge it with the Iranian Azarbaijan article.Khosrow II 04:31, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

The reason why I think we should not merge is because not all Iranian Azaris live in Azarbaijan. I believe the article mentions that many live in Tehran and Karaj. To merge would be like having a Turkish Kurdistan article but not having a Kurds in Turkey page. Thank you for your attempt to improve the article, however. Some parts are redundant. —Khoikhoi 04:41, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
But I remember reading the information that is on this page somewhere else on wiki, I cant remember where.Khosrow II 05:18, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
I moved half of the content in this article from Azerbaijan (Iran) (see the edit history). The rest of this article is copied from Azerbaijani people. —Khoikhoi 05:20, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Ok, that makes sense now. Thats probably where I had read it before. Anyway, the recent genetic testing that proves Azari's are Turkified Iranics should also be added in here. I believe it should also be noted that the Azari's in iran and the R. of "Azerbaijan" have never and still are not ethnically the same people, and that the R. of "Azerbaijan" has no connection to Iranian Azarbaijan. What do you think?Khosrow II 05:25, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Well, if you have reliable sources that say so, be my guest. Hopefully the sources are not biased as well, and if they are, they should be attributed properly. Also, in order for this to not turn into another edit war between you and GM, please also include the Rep. of Aze. POV in this article as well (doesn't necessarily have to be pan-Turkist). As for the second thing you said, I think that would be a bit too controversial. That sounds like the Iranian POV to me... We shouldn't forget that Azeris are distinct from Persians. However, if you want to include it, as I said earlier, you should include the other POV as well. —Khoikhoi 05:36, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
You must not have read about the genetic study that was done. Its on the Azerbaijani people page. Also, there is a whole article about the naming of the Republic of "Azerbaijan", which talks about the historical revisionism and pan Turkist motivations involved in choosing that name over Albania.Khosrow II 05:42, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
*sigh* —Khoikhoi 05:45, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

This article should be called "Azaris in Iran" and should state that they are different from Turkish people in Azerbaijan Republic. Khorshid 07:30, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Why "Azaris"? English usage has always been predominately Azeri/Azerbaijan/Azerbaijani, and since this is the English Wikipedia, we should use the most common names. Also, the Azeris of Azerbaijan are not Turkish, they are Turkic. This attempt to differentiate members of the same ethnic group as much as possible seems to have political motivations attached. I think what matters here is what they consider themselves to be, not to put words in their mouths and say, "you guys are different as soon as you hit the border". —Khoikhoi 07:39, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
When writing in an article, I always use Azeri/Azerbaijani so calm down. I'm just used to saying Azari because thats how it is pronounced in my native language. You have to understand that Azerbaijan is the Turkified version of Azarbadegan, i.e Azarbaijan. Thats why Iranians say Azari. Also, there is no question that Azari's are Turkic speakers today, however, if facts apply to a certain subject, then they should be included, am I right?Khosrow II 14:44, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
I am calm, and yes, I know that. Of course it should be included, but you must understand that you can't have an article based off one POV, it has to be neutral... —Khoikhoi 17:33, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Who said anything about POV. I'm talking about cited facts here...Khosrow II 18:21, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

There was another article here (that was almost deleted) that had sources that showed that Azeris of Azerbaijan Republic and Azaris of Iran are not the same people. Azeris in the Republic are Caucasian peoples such as Armenians, Georgians, etc. and also they see themselves as Turkish, and the same as Turks of Turkey. Azaris of Iran are completely different peoples and come from different (Iranian) origins. What is politically motivated is to say that Azeris of Republic and Azaris of Iran are exact same people. 100% not true. Khorshid 00:15, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the support. Khoikhoi, Khorshid is right, it would be politically motivated if we said what the R. of "Azerbaijan" wants people to think, rather than the truth.Khosrow II 00:27, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Is this use of Azerbaijan in quotation marks a new thing of yours? :p —Khoikhoi 00:36, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes, ever since I found out why it is called Azerbaijan. The only Azerbaijan is Iranian Azerbaijan. Read here: History of the name of the R. of Azerbaijan note: that version is Grandmaster's POV. It doesnt not include all the information. GM took out my facts, inserted his POV, and got theh article protected. If you want to read the non POV version, with all information cited, read this version:[1] (note, the Politics section of this version may seem a bit POV because I was not finished with it before it got protected.) Its true what they say, you do learn something new everday, and thats what I try to do.Khosrow II 00:40, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Hehehe. Personally, I'd rather read a future compromise version of the article... —Khoikhoi 01:05, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
We're working on it. Trust me, look at how long the talk page is. LOLKhosrow II 01:28, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
:p —Khoikhoi 01:38, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Page move

I am moving the page to "Iranian Azeris" which is a more appropriate term since "Azeris in Iran" makes it look Azeris are foreigners in Iran or something, the Azeris of Iran are Iranian citizens like any other Iranian. Also, "Iranian Azeris" generates far more search results than "Azeris in Iran". --Mardavich 05:29, 15 April 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Totally misleading! - There are Tork and Azari in Iran, Azari are not Tork

This article is ridiculous. In Iran "Azari" is an old Iranic language and people. The people you are referring to are "Tork", this is what they're called in Iran by all non-Tork and its what they call themselves.

Tork is how we say Turk, they're Turks but unfortunately some fascist Pan-Iranists in the West who never lived a day in Iran are "scared" of the word TURK because they think it means that they've got something in common with other Turks and thus are paranoid about them.

They fail to understand some simple facts that anybody who knows Iran well knows.

- They are Turks - They speak Turkish - They understand Turkish of Turkey and Azerbaycan and watch their Tv stations all the time in regions they are a majority.

However, what they simple don't realise is that "Iran" is for Iranians, Iranian does not mean PERSIAN. The Turks, Persians, Kurds, Baluch etc are all Iranian. Unfortunately a section of the Iranian diaspora does not realise this and thinks everyone is a Persian and everybody else is a threat.

Turks of Iran are an integral part of the country, they have contributed alot and are loyal, they are Iranians.

However, these fascist racists try to use any desperate measure to supress the fact that they're Turks, this just fuels the pro-Turk movements and gives them room to grow.

Stop this ludacrisy, this self-deception, does it make you feel better to try and pull the wool over people who nothing about Iran's eyes? do you sleep better at night lying to people? you can lie all you like but when you actually go to Iran and go to places like Tabriz the reality will hit home.

--Torke (talk) 17:07, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Azeri= Azari there is only one orthography Alef Zal R and I of nesbat. Azeri is the English spelling of what in Persian and Azeri itself is pronounced az Azari + Âzäri. In Arran wriiten az Azreveresed e= short a ri. They are an Iranian people most of whom have changed language and became Turkis speaking. But there are still villages in Iranian Azerbaijan and villages and towns in rep. Azerbaijan in which they speak the Iranian Azeri dialects. In short: Azeri and Azari are not tow different things, just the same thing but the latter is just a mispelling of the official English Azeri.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 11:14, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
This is totally misleading, Azari is a completely unrelated Iranic language, Torke of Iran speak Turki not "Azari" which is an extinct language.

Turki belongs to the Altaic language family. Where are there villages in Iranian Azerbaijan which speak "Iranic Azari" please tell me the name of even one! And in Iran Azari isn't used, Tork is used. --Torke (talk) 17:16, 27 December 2007 (UTC)


So if someone is of iranian origin but can only speaks english not persian....does that mean he is of British origins? Language is not the only factor, it is a circumstantial and should be looked at just like that.

Espec with the Iranic encyclopedia states that the majority of Azeris have Iranian origins. These are people who spend their lives and are paid to study these things. Not with standing blood test have proven that not only does certain DNA not match the Turks but is identical to the iranian (persians as u keep mentioning). "real" iranian will be of Aryan/indoeuropean origins. In Iran Azeris r refered to as Turks because they speak a turkish dialect. However their tradition customs are identical to persians. Infact the Azari language in itself if mixed with iranian words and acents. You should study on this topic before you post, it is clear by every study done that Iranian Azeri are Iranian in origin.

Even Azerbaijans history will forever be connected to Iran(Media/Persia). Most of this tension being created is from the republic of Azerbaijan which is trying to make a land claim. The only real supression is that Azeri is not being studied like the way french is in canada.

What do you know about Iran? Your comparison is like comparing apples and oranges.

What is a "REAL" Iranian? Arabs, Persians, Kurds, Turks, Baloch make up Iranians, they are not all "genetically" identical, I mean recent reports show that West and East Iran have differing DNA's. A band of Central Asians bought the Iranic language to Iran which was inhabitted by non-Iranic speakers. According to your logic therefore the Persians in Iran are actually Persianized Elamites, Hurrians and so on.

In Iran all these peoples have lived together for a millenia, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that over this period of time they shared and borrowed aspects of each others culture.

The language of Iranian Turks has given birth to many well respected Turkish writters and is mutually intellegible with other Oghuz Turk speakers.

Please wake-up, your still takling about "Medians", don't you understand that there has been spans of Turkic rule in Iran for a millenia. Irans history is one of the Turks as it is one of the Persians, why can't you accept this. Its people with ideas such as your that threaten Iran, supressing an identity isn't a smart idea it just makes matters worse. Azerbaijan has made no name claims, stop shifting the blame. Iran should acknowledge and encourage the Turks of the country to be able to learn their language and promote it. Hence making the group feel more appreciated, also its a bridge to Azerbaijan, Turkey, Turkmenistan which are borders and countries Iran can have influence over.

--Torke (talk) 17:07, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

No one denies that in Iran Turkic languages existand that many who ruled, defended and died for Iran were speakers o this language family. Nevertheless we here speak of Azeri ethnic group of Iran, who are neither genetically nor culturally related to the Altaic people. They are and Iranian people speaking an OPghuz Turkic language. Why is it so difficult for you to understand?--Babakexorramdin (talk) 14:26, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Your obsession with de-Turkification of the Turks of Iran is ridiculous and only increases growing resentment and helps those who wish to cause seperatism in Iran.

Look, just face it, there are Turks in Iran and they have no problem communicating with Turks in Azerbaijan or Turkey.

And regarding "culture", Turks of Irans legends and epics are Dede korkut, Koroghlu, Alpimish, Oghuz Kagan etc all Turkic. Turks of Iran have the musical tradition of Ashigs/Ozans/Bakshys, shared by Oghuz Turk peoples. Turks of Iran share Oghuz Turk tribal groups such as Bayats, Afshars, Salurs and share cultural similarities of traditions and customs such as in their carpet weaving. There have been great Turkic writers and poets such as Shah Ismail, Fuzulli, Shahriar which have contributed to Turkic culture. I could carry on and on.

Its total ignorance to try and ignore these realities and pretend that they are just Persians, speaking a Turkic language thinking they are Turks.

As for the genetics argument, it is ludacris, Persians don't even have a genetic continuity, Persians in West and Eastern Iran differ so are they now not really Persians. Tajiks are more similar to Kirghiz are they now the same nation...

--Torke (talk) 16:26, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I do not know about genetics let the experts discuss about them. I have to remind you however that this article is about Iranian Azeris and not about Persians, Kyrgyz or Tajiks.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 21:28, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] origins

I added a section about the origins of Iranian Azeris to provide more information for the reader. I also added a picture to improve the article.Hajji Piruz 23:16, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Image does not exist, thus removed.Hajji Piruz 20:18, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] map

Removed the propaganda map. It is incorrect and not credible.192.17.167.33 04:21, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Actually these maps are from political sites and have no reliability. For example the UNPO map (it is not United Nations organization and has no validity), every political organization puts their own inflated ethnic nationalist map. It is not academic. That particular map goes back to a Azeri nationalist gathering in 1998 when the map was first rolled out! So it's source is invalid. If you look at the Iranian Kurdistan map on UNPO [2] it contradicts the funny Iranian Azerbaijan map[3]. For the simple reason that these maps put up by political organizations have no academic basis. It is laughable for someone to claim Mahabad as an Azerbaijani speaking city! It seems each organization gives inflated figures as well [4][5]. For reference there are good ethnic maps of [6] (University of Texas), [7] (BBC, University of Texas) ad other academic sites: [8][9]. On the other hand there are funny inflated maps [10] (this one takes Tabriz to be in Kurdistan!) and then another funny map takes Mahabad/Qazvin/Hamadan cities.. to be Azeri speaking. This one wants a coast from the Mediaterian sea to Persian Gulf[11]. Here is one that seems inflated: [12] (by a Kurdish scholar). The BBC/Utexas map are reliable but the others are not. So in short any funny map that claims Mahabad/Hamadan/Qazvin are Azeri or Tabriz/Hamadan..all the way to the coast of the Persian Gulf is Kurdish is not reliable. Also the banned user mentioned Atropatene. At the time of atropatene the area was not Turcophone and also Atropatene was not called "South Atropatene" or "Iranian Atropatene". I think I said enough but I would ask the banned user to get an education on Mahabad or Nahavand or Hashtpar. --alidoostzadeh 20:54, 12 September 2007 (UTC)