Talk:Indo-European copula
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[edit] Slavic
I compiled some information on Ukrainian language (an Eastern Slavic language) with the help of the notes on grammar in my English/Ukrainian dictionary. I'm no grammar expert, so there may be errors. —Michael Z. 2005-05-23 05:39 Z
| Ukrainian | |
|---|---|
| Infinitive "to be" |
бути buty |
| Present "I am" |
є je є є є є є |
| Present continuous "I am being" |
буваю buvaju буваєш buvaješ буває buvaje буваєм(о) buvajem(o) буваєте buvajete бувають buvajut′ |
| Conditional (Subjunctive, formed by adding particle би or б to past) "I would be" |
був би buv by/була би bula by (m./f.) був би/була би був би/була би/було би bulo by (m./f./n.) були би buly by були би були би |
| Future "I will be" |
буду budu будеш budeš буде(ть) bude(t′) будем(о) budem(o) будете budete будуть budut′ |
| Future imperfect "I will be being" |
бутиму butymu бутимеш butymeš бутиме butyme бутимемо butymemo бутимете butymete бутимуть butymut′ |
| Past Participle | ? |
| Past "I was" |
був buv/була bula (m./f.) був/була був/була/було bulo (m./f./n.) були buly були були |
| Past imperfect "I was being" |
бував buvav/бувала buvala бував/бувала бував/бувала/бувало buvalo бували buvaly бували бували |
| Imperative (imperfect/perfect) "be being!/be!" |
- бувай! buvaj/будь! bud′ - буваймо! buvajmo/будьмо! bud′mo бувайте! buvajte/будьте! bud′te - |
| Present perfective various prefixes indicating completion change the meaning and create new verbs |
відбути vidbuty ("to accomplish/to attend"), перебути perebuty ("to remain/to suffer"), добути dobuty ("to gain [weight]"), здобути zdobuty ("to acquire"), набути nabuty ("to accumulate"), збути zbuty ("to get rid of"), забути zabuty ("to forget") |
| Present active participle "being" adj. |
буваючий buvajučyj m./буваюча buvajuča f./буваюче buvajuče n. |
| Present passive participle | ? |
| Past active participle | ? |
| Past passive participle "had been being" adj. |
бувший buvšyj m./бувша buvša f./бувше buvše n. ("former" adj.) |
| Present gerund "(while) being" |
буваючи buvajučy |
| Past gerund "having been" |
бувши buvšy |
Similar to the Latin futurus are the Ukrainian words будучина (budučyna) and майбутність (majbutnist′), both meaning "the future", and both incorporating the root of to be (бути, buty).
Ukrainian also has the verb стати (staty), meaning "to stand" or "to become". Adding the suffix -sja, meaning "onesself", makes the verb статися (statysja), "to happen". —Michael Z. 2005-05-23 05:53 Z
- Michael, thanks for coming over to help so quickly. This is very interesting, and generally more regular than the Germanic and Romance languages. Looks like the present stem is from *es- and the rest is from *bheu-. This article can't go into as much detail of the derived forms as you have given here, but we will certainly want to note how the suppletion works. Do you know anything about Russian? Old Church Slavonic would be good. Perhaps Polish? --Doric Loon 06:12, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
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- Just thought I'd fill in everything I could. Feel free to just include what's most relevant, change the order and format, etc. It might also be interesting to include more information about staty, which I think must come from *sta-.
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- Doesn't Ukrainian have zero copula? -Iopq 18:38, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
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[edit] Title
Wikipedia article titles don't usually use quotation marks in them, and they are generally kept as short as possible. I suggest that the article be moved to something like Indo-European copula. We have other articles called Copula and Romance copula, not The verb "to be" and The verb "to be" in Romance languages. — Chameleon 16:11, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
- Fair enough, although in Celtic at least "copula" is used to mean one of the verbs translated "to be" and not the other one (which is called the "substantive verb"). --Angr/comhrá 16:35, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
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- The verbs so labelled both seem to correspond to the copula in other languages. I think the page can be moved without problems. I shall do it tomorrow if nobody objects. — Chameleon 19:23, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
No objection! --Doric Loon 21:58, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
[edit] OCS symbols
Great to see so much input on the different branches. I think this will be a very interesting article precisely because of its potential breadth. I have a problem with the Old Church Slavonic table, though: there are various symbols which appear on my screen as a square. I have found this with other wiki pages where the IPA was being used. Is it a good idea to use symbols that cannot be read by all browsers? (Assuming that is the problem!) I'm using Internet Explorer 6.1 (2001). BTW, would those of you who know your way around the Slavonic field like to copy the above information on Ukranian (or the most relevant parts) into that table alongside OCS? --Doric Loon 21:58, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
- The OCS in the article is actually transliterated using scientific transliteration, with the Cyrillic hard sign representing itself (this is a common convention). Do the characters show up for you in Template:Unicode: běxъ, bǫdeši, bǫdetъ? (I believe the Cyrillic Slavonic would look something like this: бѣхъ, бѫдєши, бѫдєтъ.)
- In the Ukrainian table above, I've included everything in Cyrillic, with transliteration in italics (Ukrainian doesn't use the hard sign), although just using transliteration alone is probably appropriate for this article.
- I'd love to copy the Ukrainian into the article, but I don't know enough about the grammar terminology to do it right (e.g., is "present perfective" the same as "perfective aorist"?). Maybe I'll start with the ones that are obvious to me. —Michael Z. 2005-05-25 15:30 Z
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- Yes, do it. I always feel I should go ahead with the thinks I know. Someone always corrects me if I blunder. (Usually Angr, bless him!) At any rate, whatever Angr has done, the squares have vanished and the table looks great. I wonder if it should be shortened, though; for present purposes we don't need ALL the inflections, and it is good if a table fits onto the screen. --Doric Loon 18:40, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
[edit] *er
Angr, I didn't want to discuss in the text notes, so I'll answer your question here. The source I have to hand right now is Calvert Watkins, American Heritage Dictionary of Indo-European Roots (2nd edition) page 23. He does say "probably", so there is scope for a pros-and-cons discussion if you want to write one. --Doric Loon 22:03, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
- I don't have an opinion about it, nor am I aware of a controversy surrounding it. It just bothered me that it said "recent scholarship" without an attribution. Maybe we should follow Watkins's lead and say "This is probably the origin..." instead of "Recent scholarship sees this as the origin..." which IMHO is screaming out for a source. --Angr/comhrá 22:14, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
- OK, do it. --Doric Loon 22:25, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Categories
I think the categories deserve better than just "articles without sources"!
Come on folks--How about:
- Indo-European linguistics
- Linguistics
- Languages
- Grammars
- English language
- History of the English language
- Historical linguistics
I don't know how to add categories but someone does!
Steve Rapaport 23:06, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
Adding categories is easy. You just type [[Category:XXX]] at the bottom of the page, and lo and behold you have added the articles to category XXX. But categories are grouped into higher-level categories, and Wikipedia policy is to keep articles in the lowest possible (sensible) category only. So if Category:Indo-European linguistics is a subcategory of Category:Linguistics, then the page should only be in the former, not in the latter. --Angr/comhrá 23:20, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Two more languages
Here two other Indo-European languages for your collection :-) One Germanic, one Celtic.
| Dutch | Modern Welsh | |
| Infinitive | zijn | bod |
| Present | ben bent is zijn zijn zijn |
rydw rwyt mae rydyn rydych maen |
| Preternite | was was was waren waren waren |
roeddwn roeddet roedd roedden roeddech roedden |
| Past Particle | geweest |
[edit] Other Branches
Hmmm, I guess the Western/European languages are pretty well covered, but It'd be interesting to see examples from more distant languages, such as Classic and Modern Greek, Old Prussian(?), Lithuanian, Sanskrit, Avestan, Old Persian... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.232.72.148 (talk • contribs) 16:06, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
- "distant", huh! Distant to what? deeptrivia (talk) 00:51, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Bulgarian
Bulgarian language has well preserved the copula from Old Church Slavonic both as a copula and an auxiliary verb (used in complex analytic verb tenses and passive voice).
Actually, there are three copulae, forming an aspect triple: imperfective съм, pervective бъда, secondary imperfective бивам. The last one is rarely used as a copula, but mainly in literary to form passive construction.
| Bulgarian | Usage notes | |||
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Imperfective | Perfective | Secondary imperfective | ||
| Infinitive "to be" |
*би | *биде | *бива | An infinitive as a stand-alone category is absent in Bulgarian language. What is said to be "infinitive" is actually the aorit form for 3rd persoon singular. It is used only in some "frozen" expressions. In the case of "съм" such expression is only "може би" may be |
| Present "I am" |
съм си е сме сте са |
бъда бъдеш бъде бъдем бъдете бъдат |
бивам биваш бива биваме бивате биват |
The present forms of the verb съм are enclitics. Their word order strictly follows the usual rule for second place of enclitics, e.g. Аз съм българин (I am [a] Bulgarian) versus Българин съм аз (lit. [A] Bulgarian am I) |
| Imperfect "I was" |
бях бе, беше бе, беше бяхме бяхте бяха |
бъдех бъдеше бъдеше бъдехме бъдехте бъдеха |
бивах биваше биваше бивахме бивахте бивахте |
Forms бе/беше are only stylistic variants. Form бе is rarely if ever used in oral language, it is mainly used in literature to avoid repetitive беше Form бъдех is an innovation in Bulgarian. In appeared when the imperfect tense started being formed from the present stem (e.g. берях), not from the preterite stem (cf. OCS bьraaxъ) |
| Aorist "I was" |
*бих *би *би *бихме *бихте *биха |
бидох биде биде бидохме бидохте бидоха |
бивах биваше биваше бивахме бивахте бивахте |
The aorist forms *бих/би, etc. are not used as a copula in Modern Bulgarian. They only function as an auxiliary to form the conditional mood (e.g. Аз бих ял I would eat) |
| Imperative "Be!" |
бъди бъдете |
бивай бивайте |
||
| Present active participle "Be!" |
*същ *съща *също *същи |
*бъдещ *бъдеща *бъдещо *бъдещи |
биващ биваща биващо биващи |
Although the forms същ and бъдещ descend directly from the corresponding OCS forms sy/sǫštьi and bǫdy/bǫdǫštьi, in Modern Bulgarian they do not function as participles. 'Същ' functions as a regular adjective meaning '[the] same', as well as бъдещ meaning 'future'; а neuter form бъдеще (somewhat different from бъдещо) means 'a future' |
| Imperfect active participle "been" |
бъдел бъдела бъдело бъдели |
бивал бивала бивало бивали |
As normally, these are used only for non-attestative moods. | |
| Perfect active participle "been" |
бил била било били |
бил била било били |
бивал бивала бивало бивали |
|
| Past passive participle "been" |
- | - | - | |
| Gerund "being" |
- | бъдейки/бидейки | бивайки |
The forms of the copula have very high usage frequency. This is due to its overloaded usage as an auxiliary verb to form all resultative indicative tenses, all tenses of all non-attestative moods, as well as all tenses of the passive voice. Some verb tenses use the copula twice (e.g. бил съм четял, inveritative mood, present) or even three times (щял е бил да е чел, conclusive mood, resultative future-in-the-past tense, rarely used, but possible and used when needed).
On the other hand, zero copula is almost unknown fenomenon. Main exception is its omission in 3rd person, renarrative and inveritative forms (e.g. renarrative той четял, inveritative той бил четял vs. conslusive той е четял, as well as non-3rd person renarrative/conclusive аз съм четял, inveritative аз съм бил четял
--Gazibara 10:13, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Slavic transcription
Rather than leave some of the Russian examples in Cyrillic and some in transcription, I've added Russian to all the transliterated entries and transliterations to those in Russian. I wouldn't be offended if anyone deleted all the Russian text (leaving transliterations), but my personal ideal would be for all the Slavic examples to be written both in their own languages and in transliteration.
I also strongly disagree with the choice of č to transliterate щ, and would welcome a more accurate alternative. (Perhaps šč? Or ŝ, as per the ISO 9 system?) Tesseran 03:27, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
- I agree it should be šč. User:Angr 06:22, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
- I've finally made this change. Tesseran 01:23, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Old Irish
Can someone check the Old Irish table? I suspect (on the basis of my knowledge of the modern languages) that the terms copula and substantive verb should be the other way round. In modern Gaelic:
- copula: tha mi sgith - I am tired (links NP to adjective etc)
- substantiive (usually called assertive form: is e seo cat - this is a cat (links NP to NP)
So shouldn't OI tó be the copula and am the substantive? --Doric Loon 04:03, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
- I learned the names the way they are in the Old Irish table, and opposite of what you said for modern Scottish Gaelic. The copula links an NP to an NP, while the substantive verb links an NP to an AP, PP, etc. User:Angr 08:01, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, Angr, I thought it might be you who answered. Well, if you're sure, then that's fine, but it doesn't quite tally with what I understood by the words; but presumably the distinctions will have shifted a lot between OI and the modern languages anyway. --Doric Loon 13:32, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
- Except that I learned the names for Modern Irish as the same of the words for Old Irish. So either the names have been switched for Scots Gaelic, or you've got them backwards. User:Angr 14:10, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Wezen
Dutch still uses the verb 'wezen'. It has a rather peculiar function. Can anybody comment? (it also used as a noun meaning 'being(creature)' or 'orphans'
[edit] affirmative copula in Irish
In the Gaelic table, should the assertive present of the IG copula not be 'is' as well? (is maith liom, mar shampla) 159.134.221.48 16:39, 1 March 2007 (UTC)BRN
[edit] Swedish
Mind if I add Swedish to the Germanic table? Or is it too much having both Swedish, Danish and ON? – SmiddleTC@ 08:22, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
- I'd say so. The mother language is enough. Too many dughter languages would mainly attract clutter. For well attested mother languages, such asLatin, anskrit, Old Norse etc, one language is enough. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 00:37, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] *bhuH- section
The *bhuH- section claims to give a reconstructed "present indicative", but this paradigm shows clear Indo-European perfect-stem type endings. This should probably be rephrased in a clearer manner... AnonMoos 22:37, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Russian Present Forms
What is said to be Russian isn't really modern Russian, it's several centuries out-of-date. Actually, in modern Russian (just like in Ukrainian; and Belarusian, as well, by the way) this verb in Present Tense is usually omitted or есть is used for all Present forms.
Есмь, еси, есмы, есте are not used in modern language at all (well, you can encounter еси in fables, but it isn't modern language). I think all these should be marked archaic. Суть does, however, sometimes occur in modern text, but I think it's worth marking it a rare verb (суть as a noun 'essence' is widely used, but it's a different case).
So I suggest the following: есть, est'; есмь, esm' (arch.) есть, est'; еси, esi (arch.) есть, est' есть, est'; есмы, esmy (arch.) есть, est'; есте, este (arch.) есть, est'; суть, sut' (rare) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.21.43.222 (talk) 14:58, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Polish past tense
Polish is missing the past tense:
byłem/byłam byłeś/byłaś był/była/było byliśmy/byłyśmy byliście/byłyście byli/były
I think this is called the preterite but I'm not a linguist.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.112.94.230 (talk) 06:02, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
