Talk:India/Archive 12

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

Official languages

This link talks about only two official languages according to the constitutional provisions. Unless anybody knows otherwise, I will change the no. of official languagues to two. Lost 05:20, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually it is truely two. But some non-Hindi speakers challenge this and claim that all the Scheduled languages are natioanl and official languages.Cygnus_hansa 23:57, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Ancient civilizations

Home to one of the four major ancient civilisations

The above sentence in the second paragraph needs corroboration. Is there a list that catalogoues the other three major civilizations? Can something be cited to support this? I have requested citation in the article Chancemill 12:06, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

According to my best knowledge the other three are Chinese, Mesoptamian and Egyptian civilizations. I will try to find citations and add to the article. --Bharat 12:50, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Plz comment

Your comments are welcome on this article, re-written by me: Hindustan. Basic refs are from Webster's New World dictionary.Cygnus_hansa 00:03, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

SVG map

There seems to be a debate about the usage of svg maps as i noticed that the one on this page has been reverted to the old png one. Now if some good soul can tell me where all the action is taking place, id like to add to the discussion -- PlaneMad|YakYak 09:39, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Adding Ayyavazhi

In the introduction area " Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, and Sikhism–all have their origins in India," was placed in the sense that All this highly potential and complex religions took their origins in India and by which meriting India. They were not placed in accordance to the number of followers antience etc.. So Iam placing Ayyavazhi here in the introduction area because it too took birth in India and was complex

London Missionary Society report (LMS Report) for the year 1843 describes it as one that created "so much excitement" in the contry

G.Patrick's Religion and Subaltern Agency, Published from University of Madras, Chapter 5, page 92"The religious experience of AV (Ayyavazhi) found expression in many ways as in the type of relegiosity, the rituals, and beliefs, the festivals, the ritual symbols, etc."

And many more - Vaikunda Raja

And what about the hundreds of other religious movements that also originated here such as Arya Samaj, etc? I don't think Ayyavazhi is notable enough to warrent mention in the intro. It is still not very widely known in India apart from its few followers. In a summary article it is not appropriate to insert this. - Parthi 02:47, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree. Ayyavazhi is not notable enough. I think it's more than evident that Vaikunda Raja (please sign your posts properly, with ~~~~) has made a persistent campaign to insert Ayyavazhi into every nook and cranny that exists on Wikipedia (it borders of proselytism if you ask me). Google Books has zero hits [1], which shows that Ayyavazhi has a limited presence in literature. There are just over [2] 9,000 hits on the web excluding Wikipedia, and many of those are Wikipedia duplicate sites. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 12:30, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Compare with other religions listed:
  • Buddhism: [3] 77 million hits, [4] 700,000 pages in books.
  • Hinduism: [5] 44 million hits, [6] 600,000 pages in books.
  • Jainism: [7] 16.5 million hits, [8] 144,000 pages in books.
  • Sikhism: [9] 11.4 million hits, [10] 69,000 pages in books.
Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 12:36, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Do Arya Samaj claim them outside Hinduism? But Ayyavazhi do. Also Arya Samaj A religioous movement, but ayyavazhi a religions (on their own views). See more about this discussion in the Talk:Ayyavazhi.Answer and remove. Iam reverting. Also I earlier placed the reason that here all (all religions) were placed not due to the wide acceptance but complexity on ideas. - Vaikunda Raja
Aayyaavaazhi is not a religion. In India there are more than 3000 caste and this Aayyaavaazhi might be one of them.
vkvora 16:30, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
First of all I had a problem in my computer in editing with sing up. More over, Iam mentioning my name in every of my edited. So I think no problem.
Then (what nook and cranny). If for example in the article Dharma, If a new religion says something new about dharma it was usually placed with proper citation. That is what I've done here after in WP. But you can't question any body editing on behalf of particular religion and all. Any one who is familier with Hinduism do so and if with (some knowledge in Christianity) he write the Christian view. That's what I've done with Ayyavazhi. Also what (proselytism). Writing an article regarding a religious system or placing other views on a general topic means proselytism?!!! Then all the users edited religious views will be proselyti(sors).
Then if Google books have very few on a particular category how can you declare that, that Category have limited Literature. Akilam the holy book of Ayyavazhi is supposed to be the longest ballad in the world with more than 15000 verses.
Then the google hit. I completely agree with the view that Ayyavazhi is too, too bad informative in web. That's really a pity. The main reasonis that it had no as much followers that other religions do. But it doesn't mean that Ayyavazhi is neglegeble.
Then in this article I've already mentioned that Ayyavazhi is placed here because it was substential. It was with the same view other religions were placed there and by meriting India(article) as saying "the birth place of all such sustential religious systems are in India". No because of a large number of followers. Why every body is marching against me? Please understand the view in which I've done that. On other user saying right now Ayyavazhi as a caste, one among some 3000. Then some one in a discussion before in this page (talk:India) says Ayyavazhi as a herostone worship. Was Ayyavazhi a herostone worship or a caste? What does this word "Aayyaavaazhi" means dear friends?
This religion had a large scripture. A set of Holy Places (not of hinduism). A large amount of worship centers. Please friends, try to understand what Iam telling. I placed Ayyavazhi in the introduction only due to its substantial nature( as others are placed). - Vaikunda Raja .
Is there any place for this Ayyavazhi in India A Reference Annual or any other Central Government publication? vkvora 18:30, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
You must understand that Ayyavazhi is not a well known religion (I consider at a sect of Hinduism, the claim in the article "Ayyavazhi is not officially recognised, but its followers consider it an autonomous religion." has no citation; I'm not sure that Ayyavazhi followers do not consider themselves Hindus) even by Tamils in India.
Ayyavazhi certainly deserves its own article, but it is certainly not notable to the extent it is given on Wikipedia. You cite two books, and I'm sure there are more, but they pale in comparison to the number of books published on the other religions.
I mean no disrespect to your religious beliefs but Ayyavazhi appears as little more than a minute sect. Searching the British library for literature on Ayyavazhi or Ayyāvaḻi results in zero results. That is zero results in the largest library in the world (with over 150 million items [11]). The British Library receives a copy of all books sold or published in the UK and as a result includes most English-language publications. The Library of Congress, also results in zero hits (on both title, and topic). It may be that I'm using inappropriate search parameters (for example, Akilam does result in a hit) - but I believe my argument still stands.
If all religiousgroups (of a similar size, and with a similar amount of literature) were given as much exposure as Ayyavazhi seems to be getting on Wikipedia, we would end up with literally thousands of different opinions in the articles about Dharma, Monotheism, Evil, Faith, etc.
On a side note, are you the only main contributor to artciles on Ayyavazhi? Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 18:42, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
The religiou sbook is Akilattirattu Ammanai and abbrivated as Akilam. Any way not published in any other languages than Tamil. See the discussion page on Ayyavazhi. Also A boo published by the University of Madras confirmed a new religion. You asked citations for that nad the reply is in the talk page of Ayyavazhi. Also as from the biggining I started editing on wikipedia, I am telling the ideological, mythical, philosophical, ritual, deviation of Ayyavazhi from Hinduism. Then you say about Dharma, allmost from all different views on Dharma focus to the concept of moksha but Ayyavazhi not. Then the dharma for the present society "To uplift the lowly is dharma" There are many more deviation in central themes (between ayyavazhi and Hinduism) And for citations about Ayyavazhi's autonomous nature see the discussion. Also there it was cited. But not officially.
And searchingf for the scripture in international sources will not benifit. Beacause the entry of yyavazhi works on net is unconditionabily too bad. Still now I was not away from my stand that Ayyavazhi is vast Sustantial but Unknown(especially on net). - User:Vaikunda Raja
If Ayyavazhi is "officially" (whatever that means) a sect of Hinduism, then the mainstream beliefs of Hinduism should portrayed in most articles. The specific Ayyavazhi articles should detail differences. If we were to mention the differing beliefs of every Hindu sect everytime Hinduism was mentioned, we would have quite a large and unmanageable list.
Ayyavazhi may have a vast holybook, but it (the book and the religion) is not especially notable and hence why it shouldn't appear here in the introduction. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 20:00, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Ayyavazhi is official a off shoot of Hinduism but not religiously. So it doesn't need any mantion of mainstreame beleifs. Also there are no reference that it was an offshoot. But it was not officially recognised and so it noted as offshoot.
Then how can you ask "why it shouldn't appear here". Then I will ask "May Hinduism have a great philosophy why it souldn't be appear here?" Also other religions have a long tradition ,why it shoudn't appear here? And so on.
And how you think Ayyavazhi is not notable? - Vaikunda Raja
I'm not trying to be deliberately offensive (and I realise English isn't your native language), but apart from the last line, I'm not sure I understand what you have written. Please repeat it for me. Thanks. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 21:06, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Ayyavazhi is notNotable because it is unknown beyond a small group of followers. There are hardly any' independent sources (apart from the one book cited in the articles). All the google hits are either WP page created by Vaikunda Raja or mirrors of WP. By WP definition it makes Ayyavazhi not notable. - Parthi 21:38, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Two observations: Arya Samajis don't consider them Hindus. They consider nobody as "Hindus". Brahmo Samajis, OTOH, admit that "Hinduism" exists, but they don't consider themselves Hindus either. Brahmo Samaj is definitely well known, so even if Ayyavazhi was well known, it would have exactly as much of a chance of appearing in the lead as, for example, Brahmo Samaj. My second observation is that I have never heard of Ayyavazhi outside of wikipedia. deeptrivia (talk) 03:55, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Does the Indian Census Commission have a headcount of the number of followers of the Ayyavazhi 'religion'? If not, I would say we don't add it on the main page. Let's keep official government parameters as our inclusion criteria. =Nichalp «Talk»= 04:24, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
I got frustrated with this difficult user that I need to seek administrative action against him. He continues to push his POV single-mindedly and exploits the schizophrenism and flat memory of the collective editorship here by bringing up his POV at different places or at different points in time. See how he has initiated this discussion as if nothing has happened already here. His edits create a colossal wate of time for the few editors working on Tamil-related articles. See this discussion and the section before that and the number of reverts Parthi had to do in very many places (grep for Ayyavazhi). -- Sundar \talk \contribs 05:42, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
(a clarification) I don't say that Ayyavazhi is not notable enough to have an article on its own. But, just that it doesn't belong in summary articles like this. Going by Talk:Thoothukudi, I understand that it has some following with a mention in a non-wikipedia source. If someone has the energy to explain why it's not appropriate to mention it in many articles where it's currently mentioned, please do that to him. -- Sundar \talk \contribs 06:17, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Ayyavazhi article has been linked in over 500 pages here. I hail from Tamil Nadu. Have ancestry in Kerala. Grew up in Andhra Pradesh. Never heard of this religion in all these states. :) - Ganeshk (talk) 05:54, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Also look for words like Swamithoppe, Ayya Vaikundar etc. They can turn up in unexpected places like the intro of Thoothukudi or in the definition of Western Ghats *sigh* Tintin (talk) 06:06, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I've been looking into these pages, which seem amazing, but also shows how one motivated person can inflate a non-notable topic into a major phenomenon, and flood the Internet with that. To show an example of how this inflated information creeps everywhere, I was today looking into a news story about 10 greatest nations on earth. Under the India entry, the author somewhat copied content from the lead of this page, when it was stuffed with Ayyavazhi inflation. So, it cited India as the birthplace of major religions such as ... you can guess Ayyavazhi appeared there.

I have full respect for Vaikund Raja's religious beliefs. However, when people from the same region express total ignorance of the phenomenon, questions are raised about the strength of assertions. The proselytizing nature of these pages are inherently non-encyclopedic, and the constant attempt to insert it as a major religion makes the editors intent seem dubious.

Anyway, since I'm not from the area, I'd request the south indian wikipedians to look into the vast array of articles and take proper actions under the policies of notability, verifiability, and references. Thanks. --Ragib 07:33, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I have been following the Ayyavazhi debate for a long time and have also removed the mention from the summary articles a few times. However, since I have no idea about the existence of this religion or otherwise, I would tend to agree with Nichalp's suggestion that if the religion is recognised by Govt. of India/ census of India, then a mention should be included, else not. Perhaps Vaikunda Raja can throw some light on this -- Lost 08:01, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree with the sentiments of Sundar, Ganeshk, Tintin and Ragib - all of whom are established editors on the Wikipedia. It's more than evident that Vaikund Raja has made a systematic attempt to insert references to Ayyavazhi EVERYWHERE! I think we should make a systematic attempt to remove such references apart from where they are needed. Ayyavazhi is completely un-notable (as is evidenced by Tamil editors who have never even heard of it).
I think everyone here who knows India knows that there are probably countless sects and groups that have as much notability as Ayyavazhi and if they were to be given as much presence as it seems to get on Wikipedia then we would be swamped! What's everyone's take on this?
On a side note, I've just noted the religious stub icon has the Ayyavazhi lotus symbol :) Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 15:05, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Not surprising. See [12] and [13] -- thunderboltza.k.a.Deepu Joseph |TALK15:13, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

IMO, it is OK for Ayyavazhi to have not one but many pages, a whole category to itself, so long as it does not spill over hundreds of other pages. Trouble is that all possible pages concerning Ayyavazhi have already been assiduously created, and these pages are now being linked, cross-referenced into every imaginable nook n cranny on Wikipedia. It is this insistant, clamouring ubiquity that is distrubing, because it simply is not representative of ground reality. This amounts to using Wikipedia as the medium for propogation of a new and otherwise entirely unknown denomination. The fact that these efforts are essayed by civil and apparently good-faith editors only makes it the more difficult to contain, but this is something that needs to be done in the interests of sheer veracity, which is what an encyclopaedia is about.

Unfortunately, this tendency to "use" Wikipedia is not confined to Ayyavazhi. All the Gods know that I don't wanna get into further issues, but the cult-propoganda business is quite out of hand on WP's India-related pages. A rare "Hindu" page is it which lacks a distinctly ISKCON snap and write-up from their perspective, which is that Krishna is Godhead, Chaitanya was his 8th avatar, and Balarama the 9th. Not even the non-Gaudiya subsects of the Madhvas (a Vaishnava sect) subscribe to this, but it rules. Then there is Akshardham, refer this discussion. All this only serves to undermine WP's credibility. Something must be done on a defined, concerted basis. ImpuMozhi 22:46, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Good observation.. Maybe an essay/policy proposal needs to be initiated for a hot topic such as religion, as faith generally transcends reason when it comes to such a sensitive topic. I am sure, this problem exists even in the non Indian religion articles. -- Lost 06:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I completely agree with the first para of Impumozhi. (I've noticed the issues mentioned in the second para as well.) Perhaps, an article like religion in Tamil Nadu can include the major religions, Ayyavazhi, and the rural "traditional" religious practices which sadly are summarily labeled "Hinduism". Let me try to get some pictures of the rural gods and godesses - Ayyanar, Vandimalaichchiyamman, etc., -- Sundar \talk \contribs 06:49, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Plz comment

Your comments are welcome on this article, re-written by me: Hindustan. Basic refs are from Webster's New World dictionary.Vaikunda Raja 00:05, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks I mentioned it earlier because Ayyavazhi is quite commonly rejected and deleted by saying this was unknown or too small to note unaware about its complexity. - Vaikunda Raja 00:08, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Citations in external links

Any particular reason why citation templates are used in the external links section? -- thunderboltza.k.a.Deepu Joseph |TALK05:42, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps to increase the cost of adding a link (for obvious reasons)? -- Sundar \talk \contribs 06:38, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Why wont you let me put down that INdia is ancient?

This is wikipedia...You are supposed to let people add things that are factual. I keep trying to add that India is one of the oldes countries in the world and u keep deleting it....why? 71.107.54.199 01:21, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

the fact that Wikipedia is open does not mean that anything and eveything can be added. To answer your question: a) India as a country existed only since 1947. b) To add text to an article, please cite credible sources. Regards, =Nichalp «Talk»= 01:53, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

No your going by a technicality and your basicall insulting me because im Indian. India became Independant in 1947....INDEPENDANT...that does not mean it didnt exist before....It was called INDIA by the Greeks....Hindustan by the Persians....Land of the Aryans in Veic times....These are not opinions these are facts....IM dying to see your response to this because I really dont think u have any idea how uneducated u are on this matter 71.107.54.199 05:49, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

This article is about India, the country. If you want to talk about the geographic region called India by the Greeks, please feel free to discuss at Talk:History of India about starting a separate article about that. -- Sundar \talk \contribs 06:03, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. According to [this, the anon user is our old friend ARYAN818 (talk · contribs), who has previously vandalized this page. ARYAN, why don't you log in under your user name? You've been unblocked according to the logs. --Ragib 06:09, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh, then let's not feed the troll. -- Sundar \talk \contribs 06:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I concur. Let's ignore people who don't have the decency to reply in a civil manner, and do not cite credible sources to support their arguments. =Nichalp «Talk»= 06:18, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

India is one of the oldest countries

Im not sure why you guys are picking on this Aryan fellow but he is right. India is one of the oldest countries , or at least oldest civilazations in the world. Yes I agree the country became offical in 1947...but so what?.....India was recgonized by the Greeks, Muslim invaders, the British, and even the local people....I mean read up on any history book and I cant think of one that says India is not one of the oldest countries in the world....Somebody wrote down that they wanted a link. Well look on the CIA world factook website for the country India....The first sentence says that it is one of the oldest civalizations in the world 204.102.210.1 19:48, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Indian National Army

According to me, this addition seems out of place. Though I have immense respect for Subhas Chandra Bose, these comments seem highly exaggerated. I have left a message at Soman's talk page, but would also like to hear others' views as the additions may soon be lost after other edits. -- Lost 13:57, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I am not happy with either version. The copy without SCB makes it sound like the struggle was entirely non-violent. Introducing Netaji's name will open a Pandora's box. I think we should mention that the freedom struggle, even in the 20th century did not start with Gandhiji and was not always non-violent. — Ravikiran 14:19, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree with you. The struggle may have been largely peaceful but there were definitely people like Bhagat Singh, Bose and others. The additions however make it sound like Mahatma Gandhi and Bose were the only two leaders of that time. If there is to be any name, I feel it should be Gandhi's only with a passing mention of the more aggressive leaders/ revolutionaries. Putting in Netaji's name will see many other names creeping in. -- Lost 14:32, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Blatant contradiction

The first paragraph of the economy section reads:

The economy of India is the fourth largest in the world as measured by purchasing power parity (PPP), with a GDP of US $3.63 trillion. However when it comes to PPP—GDP per capita figures—India's economy is ranked 152nd in the world.

How did something like this ever become a featured article? Unbelievable. – Timwi 12:30, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

The addition must have come after the FA. I also see that the last sentence of the para is redundant. Also, the table in the beginning states India's per capita rank as 122. I am not very knowledgeable on this subject. Would request somebody with more knowledge to rectify. -- Lost 12:44, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

It's not a contradiction if one understands the difference between ranking based on absolute figures and that which is based on per capita figures. But, there was an inconsistency between 152 mentioned here and in the now-linked list. I've changed the figure here to 122. -- Sundar \talk \contribs 13:01, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Agreed ... Please notice that India happens to have 1 billion+ people. So, even though the economy may be 4th largest or whatever, when you reduce it to per capita, any stat is going to go way low in rankings. --Ragib 14:58, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Q to Timwi: What is unbelievable? =Nichalp «Talk»= 15:18, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Languages of India

Trying to remove the "citation needed" for the 23 languages recognized by the constitution, I managed to track down the 8th schedule of the constitution which lists the recognized languages and I found a copy here [14]. It mentions only 18. But it might be out of date and stuff. If someone can track down the up to date copy, correct the number of languages and cite it, I will be much gratified. — Ravikiran 14:17, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Link it to the Manorama Yearbook 2006. Some careless nut has gone and removed my reference prompting someone to add a {cite} to it. =Nichalp «Talk»= 15:16, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

British Crown

I have removed the term British Crown, as India was not colonialised by the crown but by British East India Company. I have also removed phrases trying to highlight that British meerly served India in its unification.

~rAGU