Talk:Illegal immigration to the United States

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==Illegal immigration to the United States==

This article is in need of a general cleanup. There are a few sections that could use clarification and a look at POV. (submitted by an anon).


At 90K it may be a little long, but I don't know what to shorten. RJFJR 21:50, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

"...after three acts of misconduct these repeat offenders may be tared and featherd on sight." -Somehow, I don't think this is accurate.


Contents

[edit] major clean up

I agree this article is way to long for it to be useful. Too many tangents.

Here are some suggestions on how to trim it down and make sure it stays on the topic at hand.

1)Why is there a large section devoted to the Mexico. Wouldn't links alone to the main articles be enough? I'm new to this article so I won't delete such a major portion myself but If I don't get any objections within a day or so it's gone.

2)Another area to cut, the birthright citizenship should be much shorter and link back to the main article. Again if no one objects, I;m going to delete everything and leave a very short summarizing paragraph and a link to the main article. N Azwatchdog (talk) 21:28, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

3)We have to get rid of the massive mess that was the economic section and replace it with the intro summarizing paragraph from the main article on the subject. Call me crazy but the section should not be longer than the main article.

4)Why is there a section on legal immigration? "Immigration with and without quotas" needs to be removed

I've tried to fix the economic section but was hit with a vandalism charge.

If no one has any objections in the next day or so. I'm going ahead with the plan.

[edit] Lack of quantitative, statistical information

Immigration is a demographic phenomenon, quantifiable, and this article has mostly qualitative information. For example, I would expect this article to have numbers on deportation (those numbers are probably publicly available); also, estimates about age, social status, regional breakdown, as well as an historic perspective.... Instead, I find mostly qualitative information, even often information about specific cases, bordering to the anecdotal. Having a higher proportion of quantitative information would also reduce the risk of NPOV disputes.--Farialima (talk) 03:33, 8 January 2008 (UTC)


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  1. May 2006 – August 2006
  2. August 2006 – January 2007
  3. January 2007 – May 2007
  4. May 2007 – March 2008


[edit] RFC: what does US Code say

US Code states as follows, "(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection; misrepresentation and concealment of facts Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both." Does the section, "shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both." apply only to (3) above or does it apply to (1) and (2) as well?-02:44, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

  • Applies to all - The law means IF (1 OR 2 OR 3) THEN foo (AND IF SUBSEQUENT THEN bar). Only the criterion in 1 or 2 or 3 needs to be met for the law to be in force. Also, after watching for a few days I believe that there is some severe sockpuppetry going on here. I strongly suggest a checkuser on the obvious single purpose accounts. /Blaxthos ( t / c ) 21:32, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment - the penalty pretty obviously applies to all three of the subparagraphs. Is there still any dispute about that point here or should the RFC be closed? It looks like the editor who was arguing otherwise hasn't been around in a couple of weeks. PubliusFL (talk) 23:37, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Closure

I'm closing this RFC as complete. It was initiated largely due to the activities of a fairly sophisticated puppetmaster, who has now been banned. As such, I don't see any real controversy here. /Blaxthos ( t / c ) 00:37, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Valid Content Discriminately Deleted Without Opportunity for Discussion Time

An Anonymous IP address editor deleted or substantially changed content I had added without providing his/her views in this Discussion forum first and allowing for an opportunity for discussion time first. I wish to remind the editor this is the Wiki protocol in placed for cases where disputes, disagreements, objections, and the like exist. I have restored the initial contenct I had added, and trust that this sort of vandalism will not occur again. If there are objections to the content, let it be known here.UHaveMetURMatch (talk) 19:02, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

The only one who removed content was yourself. I simply moved content to better locations and added content to what was already there (added content which -you- removed without discussion).-198.97.67.56 (talk) 20:14, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Look, all I am asking is that you extend the same courtesy I am extending to you and discuss before making the moves that you consider "to a better location." (Clearly if I placed them in a certain location was out of considering such location the "better location" to start with, no?) You could, for example, mention that you are of the opinion that such and such would probably be best if located elsewhere. I trust you can do that much, no?UHaveMetURMatch (talk) 21:40, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
You do not own this article and cannot make such demands of other editors, however, discussion is strongly preferred to edit warring. Furthermore, your actions fit sockpuppetry to a T. I would strongly suggest backing down a little and simply let the process run its course. If you are innocent, then there will be no action and you can even point to it as vindication of your innocence. If you are guilty...well... — BQZip01 — talk 04:48, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Ok, so we've got 2 subject-changing edit warriors vs. 1 Discussion-seeker. Anyone else cares to join in?UHaveMetURMatch (talk) 21:18, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Editor Ambiguity

Several people have questioned whether there is abusive sockpuppetry going on in this article. I want to point out that UHaveMetURMatch just wrote, "I have restored the initial contenct I had added", but, in looking through the article's history page, you can easily see that he reverted back to work written by HereICome2 and that he made no changes to any material that was written by UHaveMetURMatch. In other words, the work he refers to having been done by himself under the user name UHaveMetURMatch was actually done under the user name HereICome2. This is sockpuppetry. The fact that these two user names have supported each other in editorial disputes and, therefore, made it look like there were more users in consensus makes it abusive sockpuppetry - a banning offense.-198.97.67.58 (talk) 20:36, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

O yeah, great! first complaining that the info was not about Illegal Immigration, then that it needed citations, then indiscriminate deletion, now sockpuppetry, so what will the next accusion be? that editors here are extraterrestrials? Please get real! UHaveMetURMatch (talk) 21:40, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Belief that sockpuppetry is active is not hostile in and of itself, nor is reporting it. Please cease such hostile posts and read WP:SOCK, WP:AGF, & WP:OWN. — BQZip01 — talk 04:42, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
replied to above.UHaveMetURMatch (talk) 21:18, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
You really should read and familiarize yourself with Wikipedia policies. YOu must be able to source what you add. You do not own content and if you can't handle other editors editing your work, you shouldn't be submitting it. Belief that sockpuppetry is active is not hostile behaviour (and there are now at least three different editors who believe there is strong evidence of sock puppetry going on). Wikipedia is not for everyone and if you find it an insurmountable burden for you to abide by Wikipedia policies, then don't edit here. Finally, again, you were the one who did indiscriminate deletion of sourced material, I just moved it to more appropriate locations.-198.97.67.56 (talk) 14:40, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Look see here if there is more conservitives than libreals in the world or whatever than there will be more writings siding with conservitives. So to obtain nutrality you have to define it first pending on views of groups of people. I think this article was as neutral as one person can wright


[edit] RfC

Note that there has been -one- vote on the RfC and, as currently standing, the majority of votes in the RfC are to revert the content to the other version which will be done one week from now. People can still vote, though.-198.97.67.58 (talk) 18:12, 12 March 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Request for archival

This article's discussion page is getting quite lengthy and, with the identification and resolution of the sockpuppets, it feels like a chapter has been closed here. Now would be a good time to archive the discussion page. Can someone do that please?-198.97.67.57 (talk) 13:02, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Good call, it was getting to that time
I've re-added the material above because it includes a live RfC, and I wasn't sure whether it's really resolved. Cool Hand Luke 02:08, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sockpuppetry

Per this checkuser, a large number of sockpuppet accounts used to influence discussion on this page have been indefinitely blocked. Please disregard any !votes or discussion from the puppets. Thanks. /Blaxthos ( t / c ) 12:21, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Central America causes

Many of the same issues that apply to Mexico also apply to the countries of Central America.[101][102][103] Central Americans with identity can remove freely throughout the region[citation needed] and, in contrast to South America, there is road access between Central America and the US, so many Central Americans travel illegally through Mexico to cross the border into the US. Most of these countries are significantly poorer than Mexico, with low wages, resulting in many people from this region crossing to the US, including an estimated 45,000 minors.[104]

This doesn't make sense 1.) It states, "Many of the same issues that apply to Mexico also apply to the countries of Central America". This statement is in the "Causes" section which implies that illegal immigrants from Central America have many of the same causes as those from Mexico. But none of the sources offered say that. 2.) I *think* what is being pointed out here is that the Panama canal seperates South America from Central America. But its really unclear wording and if that is what's being said, it's wrong. Half of Panama (still Central America) is on the far side of the Panama canal. The Panama canal does not seperate Central from South America. The more accurate statement would be something like "the Panama canal makes migration to the U.S. for illegal immigration more difficult for those who have to cross it" and that statement would need a source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.97.67.56 (talk) 20:46, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Although it can be worded more clearly, with more focus, it does make sense. The essential points seem to be: Legal movement among Central American countries is easy. Illegal emigration from all Central American countries toward the U.S. shares the same motivation (poverty)(although a small amount of illegal immigration today can still be credited to political and ethnic discrimination, oppression, and even genocide). Illegal immigration overland from South America towards the U.S. is much more difficult; not because of the Panama Canal but because of the Darién Gap, a gap in the Pan American Highway between the Colombian border and the Panama Canal (50 miles or so of roadless rain forest stretching from the Pacific Coast to the Caribbean. Very difficult and dangerous to cross over, without an aircraft). I will perhaps take a stab at what I think is a decent rewrite a little later: I'll also look over the sources. Kenwg (talk) 06:47, 18 May 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Schrdit's edits 3/16

  • Data in the Present Day Countries of Origin table was removed for reasons that is not at all clear. Its been restored.
  • The Portland Chronicle is reporting data from the Urban Institute. The originating source has been restored. Further, "The Portland Chronicle reports that between 65,000 and 75,000 undocumented Canadians are believed to live in the United States. They make up around 0.6% (or 6/1000) of the total illegal population" is under the causes section but isn't about causes. So, its been replaced with,"" and put back into the right section of the article.
  • "A report by the Federation for American Immigration Reform notes that in 2004 "the total K-12 school expenditure for illegal immigrants costs the states nearly $12 billion annually." is redundant (the same data from the same source is in the table), so it's been removed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.179.153.110 (talk) 01:47, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Sorry about those 2, I was reverting some vandalism, those 2 changes also looked suspicious so I put them back the way they were a few days ago. Thanks for catching those. As per the present day countries of origin chart I figured the consolidation was warranted but I can see how could just be a matter of personal preference. Thanks again. - Schrandit (talk) 05:48, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Economic impact of illegal immigrants in the United States

This section has been moved to the Economic impact of illegal immigrants in the United States page where it more rightly belongs. That being the case, it probably makes sense to reduce the section in this article to a stub - given that this article is overly long now. Doing so, however, is a pretty extensive change and there are a number of editors who are working on this article, so I want to get feedback before I do it.-198.97.67.56 (talk) 16:49, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Multiple issues on 18 April

  • splitting between 'impact on wealth' and 'impact on poverty' is arbitrary and confusing
  • Peter Elstrom is not an expert and, so, not a reliable source
  • "Thus the wealthy do benefit from illegal immigrants. " is original research
  • The Hayes quote has been readded as it adds a lot of information which was lost-66.194.62.5 (talk) 19:15, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
The edits by TheresaOlsen have been well spaced, uniformly unproductive and almost exclusively to this page. I suspect a sleeper. - Schrandit (talk) 22:50, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

will someone please put the approximate number of illegal immigrants entering the US each year in the top paragraph, or somewhere easier to find? Donkeykongjoe (talk) 02:18, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] POV

Would it be fair to take the POV tag off at this point? - Schrandit (talk) 14:05, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Emigration section

I think its erroneous and much of it constitutes Original Research. Any reason it should stay? - Schrandit (talk) 19:31, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Much has been inserted such as a quote attributed to an author when that author didn't write the quote, and then the quote was readded in square brackets without a source - which makes it OR. The section implies that emigration is not factored in in any study of how many illegal aliens are living in the country, but offers no source to back that implication up - it points to the Pew study, but the Pew study use of the 750,000 figure makes note that these are illegal aliens coming into the country (which is accurate). There's a ton of other problems as well. The section suffers from POV and OR. On the other hand, there are some good quotes in there, if you take the time to piece through it. One problem, however, is given how many bad references are given in that same section, it makes me hesitant to believe that the sources which aren't avaialable on the web (where they are readily verifiable) are stating what this section actually claims they are. So, in summary, there's good stuff here if you can piece through all the crap, but because there's so much crap, I wouldn't trust any of it unless it could be independently verifiied.-198.97.67.57 (talk) 20:29, 5 May 2008 (UTC)


I'm moving that section here so that it can be worked on. Its not ready to be put in the article (there are multiple issues). I want to avoid an edit war in the article itself. This lets us work on that section collectively to get it ready to go into the article.

[blockquote]

[edit] Emigration

Emigration is defined as the act of "leaving one country or region to settle in another." [1]. A knowledge of emigration in the context of illegal immigration is important because emigrants are the source of all immigrants to the US - whether legal or illegal.

Information on emigration is important for several other reasons:


  • In terms of simple numbers emigration is part of the equation that yields net immigration.

"Net immigration is what implants lastings effects on the US economy and population."[citation needed][2] On their work about Undocumented Immigration to the United States, Massey and others [3] found that "a high proportion of illegal Mexican immigrants return to their original villages after one or more prolonged periods of working in the United States."


  • Emigration alters the characteristics of immigrant cohorts.

In a study including both legal and illegal immigrants, Jasso and Rozenweig[4] found that "between 35 and 45 percent of immigrants emigrate - either return to their own country or move to a third country." However, this significant percentage of immigrants continued to be counted as residing in the United States.[citation needed][5] In 1996, for instance, the number of illegal immigrants entering the US was 750,000 [6], but the net illegal immigrants was estimated at 275,000. [7] However, 750,000 is the number reported officially.[citation needed][8] In addition, the authors note that "many of those apprehended are arrested more than once, and INS data thus involve double- and triple-counting of people. And, just as important, many persons who enter as illegal immigrants subsequently return to their home countries[, but the figures do not get adjusted downward]." [9] Also, "The United States does not record and link departures of individual immigrants with original arriving data." [citation needed][10]


  • Emigration information and illegal immigration information both share the undesirable trait of both being estimates.

Some warn that "Demographic information on emigration is scarce and elusive...data on emigration are weak."[11] Others admit that "information on illegal immigration is scanty." [12] This is important whether considering illegal immigration estimates or emigrant estimates: "One specific use of emigration estimates is by the Social Security Administration, which must make assumptions about the proportion of immigrants who may depart from the US. How many will not need retirement benefits?, etc." [13] Many illegal immigrants, likewise, pay into a Social Security system that they will never reap benefits of because many of them emigrate back to their sending countries. " Current immigrants are more likely than native-born to be paying into the Social Security system and less likely to be receiving benefits." [14] [/blockquote]

Okay, a first run through the outstanding issues

  • "A knowledge of emigration in the context of illegal immigration is important because emigrants are the source of all immigrants to the US - whether legal or illegal. " This is original research.
  • "Net immigration is what implants lastings effects on the US economy and population."[citation needed][15]" Given other misattributions in this section, this needs to be independently verified.
  • "On their work about Undocumented Immigration to the United States, Massey and others [16] found that "a high proportion of illegal Mexican immigrants return to their original villages after one or more prolonged periods of working in the United States." We already have a verifiable source which states the opposite - leaving me to believe that this is out of date. But, if not out of date, it should be combined with that contradicting statement so as to have both sides of the same thing together.
  • "However, 750,000 is the number reported officially.[citation needed][17]"

Why is this repeated? The article just finished saying that 750,000 is the number of illegal aliens entering the country according to Pew.

  • "[, but the figures do not get adjusted downward]" This is original research.
  • "In addition, the authors note that "many of those apprehended are arrested more than once, and INS data thus involve double- and triple-counting of people. And, just as important, many persons who enter as illegal immigrants subsequently return to their home countries"[18]" I'm not at all clear on what point is being made here. Its under the subsection "Emigration alters the characteristics of immigrant cohorts", but doesn't seem to have anything to do with that.
  • "Emigration information and illegal immigration information both share the undesirable trait of both being estimates" Yes, the numbers of illegal aliens who illegally immigrate are estimates. Why is this under the emigration section?
  • The social security stuff as regards illegal immigrants should be under the economics section. Why is it here instead?-75.179.153.110 (talk) 21:39, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Percent Change from 2000-2005

The numbers next to the tables showing countries of origin - What do those numbers mean? Where are the coming from? Why are they different in the 2 sections?

The "raw number" is the number of illegal aliens in the country from that country. They are different in the two tables because the tables are 1.) for different years and 2.) from different sources.-75.179.153.110 (talk) 10:51, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, that part made sense - but what does the Percent Change column refer to? - Schrandit (talk) 15:23, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Read it as "The number of illegal aliens from Mexico was 40 percent higher in 2005 than it was in 2000".-66.194.62.5 (talk) 16:55, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] defintion illegal immigration

The definition for illegal immigration to the United States is different then the definition for illegal immigration. Why?

from this entry. Illegal immigration to the United States refers to the act of foreign nationals voluntarily resettling in the United States in violation of U.S. immigration and nationality law.

from the illegal immigration entry. Illegal immigration refers to immigration across national borders in a way that violates the immigration laws of the destination country.

A suggestion is to make the phrase Illegal immigration from Illegal immigration to the United States jump to the general illegal immigration entry.

Wmb1957 (talk) 18:10, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I see only one difference for this U.S. definition, the inclusion of "voluntarily". I am not sure if the difference is intentional, but in some limited cases the United States grants visas to persons seeking political asylum or victims of human trafficking, even if their entry into the United States involved a violation of immigration law. In that sense one could say they did not come here voluntarily, and so the situation, though illegal in some sense, is not a matter of immigration. On the other hand undocumented foreign children who came to the United States with their parents probably didn't come voluntarily, yet they are said to be illegal immigrants. Are you aware of any other issues or differences? Wikidemo (talk) 21:34, 27 May 2008 (UTC)