Talk:Hungarian Revolution of 1848

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Contents 1 Images 2 unreferenced tag 3 Placement of un-reffed tag 4 Name 5 Not Revolution, but Ethnocratic War 6 Move? 7 Requested move 8 And the others?

[edit] Images

This article could use another image. Here's one I would add, but I don't really know what it is. Can anyone help? - TheMightyQuill 02:13, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] unreferenced tag

I reverted the deletion of the intro paragraph and unreferenced tag because even though there are no references yet (anywhere in the article) the intro itself is a summary of the article whereas the main body requires references. (there is nothing controversial or POV in the intro). The tag is not inapropriate but the intro should remain. István 20:11, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Oops, I didn't mean to delete the lead. Sancho McCann 20:18, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Placement of un-reffed tag

I've noticed some other editors preferring to place that tag at the bottom of the page too. My reason for liking it at the top is that it doubles as both a request for references and sort of a caution to certain readers who might make the connection between an unreferenced article and an inaccurate article. However, this article just seems to be lacking references, not inaccurate, so the placement at the bottom is fine with me. Sancho McCann 01:24, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I really think it looks nicer there. Your concern is totally valid though. The whole History of Hungary series is poorly referenced, if at all. The main article has only 5 footnotes! - TheMightyQuill 02:13, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name

Minor, but... first, why plural revolutions, and second, to standartize it with others, why not Hungarian revolution of 1848?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  05:08, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I know, I feel the same way. It was done to standardize it with the other articles that are part of Template:Revolutions of 1848, but I think a singular title would make more sense. - TheMightyQuill 07:09, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed - no reason not to leave the Template title alone (since it does deal with many concurrent revolutions) and change the titles to each article to singular (unless it indeed deals with more than one revolution, e.g. "Habsburg") - it's at least a more correct, less ambiguous presentation. István 19:38, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Not Revolution, but Ethnocratic War

When the so-called Hungarian Revolution started, the lands of the Krown of Saint Stephen had a multiethnic population of Romanians, Serbs, Slovaks, Ukrainians, Germans, Jews and Hungarians. The Hungarian - speaking population (including the Jewish, German, Serbian townspeople) was merely 29% and the Hungarian ethnic group was abb 25% of the total population. The aim of the rebelious group under the dictatorial command of Lajos Kossuth was to impose an APARTHEID STYLE society all over the St. Stephen Lands (the actual Hungarian Republic, Slovakia, parts of Romania, Ukraine, Austria, Serbia, Croatia and Slovenia).Only the Hungarian ethnic group would enjoy full freedon and full citizens rights. According to the rebels "Revolutionary Programme", accession to the status of full citizens would imply the rejection of the national identities of the native peoples (75% of the population in 1848) and inclusion into the "Hungarian Nation". Therefore, it is excessive to call the 1848-1849 uprisings of Hungary a "Revolution". It was in fact a sort of military attempt to replace the Austrian imperial administration by an Hungarian ethnocratic system by force and extensive massacres among the native peoples during the period 1848-1849. Of course, the success chances of this kind of ethnocratic attempts are meagre or short-lasting. It's usefull to see the situation of South Africa, where the white minority (20% of the population in 1945 and 9% of the population in 2005) hardly mantained the Apartheid Regime, against the world-wide condemnations. The so-called "hungarian revolution" was very far from European democratic way of thinking an is an example of anti-democratic movement, but successfully sold to the outside world as a "very democratic attempt". Maybe that style of twisting the events was the main success for the Hungarian Ethnocratic Oligarchy during the years after 1849. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.196.150.157 (talk) 08:34, 13 April 2007 (UTC).

Um, no....the original motivation for the revolution independence (of some sort or another) from the Habsburg Empire! The Habsburgs had been taking much more control over Hungary than they were supposed to, not to mention enforcing a backward feudalist system that kept the country (except for the mostly Austrian nobility) impoverished and uneducated. The leaders of the revolution, Kossuth Lajos and Petőfi Sándor, were certainly nationalists but they were also progressive liberals and reformers, steeped in the ideals of the Enlightenment (you know, liberté, egalité, fraternité and all that). Misjudgements by Kossuth, agitation by outside powers and clever Machiavellian meddling by the Habsburgs all conspired to bring the ethnic element into what was originally a purely political, idealistic and liberal revolution firmly in keeping with the spirit of 1848. To call this revolution an "ethnocratic war" and say that its true goal was establishment of "apartheid" is simply ridiculous. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but there's no other word for it. K. Lásztocska 00:57, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

It is really strange to consider Kossuth, Petofi and the rest of the gang as "progressive liberals and reformers". Long before any Habsburg conspiracy and Machiavellian meddling, this gang clearely stated that inside the Carpatian Basin ONLY HUNGARIANS will benefit from "liberty, equality and fraternity" and they wrote this loud and clear in the ORIGINAL Budapest Proclamation. No Habsburgs and no outside forces teached them to kill 40.000 Romanian childrens, women and elders in Transsylvania. 50 years of Apartheid regime in South Africa did less victimes than 2 years of "Hungarian revolutionary regime" and ETHNOCRATIC WAR. Moreover, it's very interesting to observe that Avram Iancu, one of the leading figures of the Romanian inteligentia in 1848-1849 proposed in his writings the formation of a "European Union" with democratic Constitutions, equality for ALL THE CITIZENS, irrespective of ethnic, religious origin, free universal vote, common assemblies, free trade and cultural excanges. Please note that the actual European Constitution is strikingly similar with the political ideeas of Avram Iancu, written in 1847-1850 ! The response of the Hungarian gang was ... several massive military offensives against the Highlanders of Avram Iancu. It's wierd to see, even in the contemporary Hungary, which is a member state of the European Union, monuments of war criminals as kossuth, petofi and bem !

Petofi was a poet, not a criminal. And y'know, I've heard some not-so-nice things about Avram Iancu, so let's not pretend this is a black-and-white issue. Among other things, Kossuth emancipated the peasants, ended the nobility's immunity from taxation, emancipated the Jews, put an end to feudalism, and did his best to modernize the economy (although it could be argued that Szechenyi was more effective at that). Again, you have not convinced me, and as for your cheap shot about statues of "war criminals" in a member state of the European Union...sir, I like Romania and the Romanians so I'd prefer not to fight, but be advised that I could come up with a VERY large catalog of, shall we say, unfortunate things that happened and still happen in Romania, now a member state of the EU. Nobody's country is as pure as fresh snow, not mine, not yours. K. Lásztocska 13:26, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I could come up with a VERY large catalog of, shall we say, unfortunate things that happened and still happen in Romania - bring it on! Biruitorul 17:35, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

You don't really want me to do that, do you? I knew we'd end up like this. K. Lásztocska 15:50, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid I'm not aware of the "unfortunate" things you're referring to, so if you'd kindly name a couple, that would be nice. Biruitorul 01:30, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Forget it. I'm just a Hungarian, so anything I say would be wrong anyway. I've heard some stuff about Hungarians getting beat up in the streets for speaking Hungarian, the occasional blatant Hungarian-baiting provocations by a prominent political figure, marginalization of the Székely and their desire for autonomy...but of course I must just be mistaken, nothing like that could ever happen in perfect golden Romania, the pinnacle of civilization! K. Lásztocska 01:50, 20 April 2007 (UTC) Ignore the heck out of this whole exchange, please. I wasn't thinking and I wasn't myself. K. Lásztocska 04:28, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

For the record, I've heard about Romanians being beat up in the Székely land, and of them leading rather marginalized lives there; Funar is no longer in office; the Hungarian political party has been in government for most of the post-Revolutionary period; and the Romanian Constitution defines Romania as a "unitary and indivisible" state, so the issue of autonomy is moot. So I think Romania has a pretty good record here. On the other hand, could the IP editor(s) please type in lowercase letters and tone down the rhetoric? It's silly, for instance, to speak of "racism" in this context. Biruitorul 07:55, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

OK. Glad to hear I was misinformed, and things aren't as bad as I feared. :) Sorry for my instability yesterday--sleepless editing, like you said...K. Lásztocska 15:29, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

The "not so nice things about Avram Iancu" is the fact that he considered that the only feasible government is a FULLY democratic one and the fact that he rejected hungarian and habsburg tirany in Transsylvania (as the vast majority of the Transsylvanians). Another "bad thing" about Avram Iancu was the fact that he encouraged the good human relations between hungarians and Romanians. The fact that he married a hungarian women enraged the narrow minded backward hungarian nationalists. Another "bad thing" is that Avram Iancu condemned the ethnic cleansing and the massacration of the civilian as a barbaric act and therefore he enraged the kossuth, petofi and bem's gang of ETHNOCRATIC FANATICS. If you remember, the Emperor Joseph II von Habsburg emancipated the peasants and the jews, ended the nobility's immunity from taxation and put an end to feudalism but his reforms was halted by the Hungarian ETHNOCRATIC RULE because Josephine illuminist reforms threatened the HUNGARIAN ETHNOCRATIC RULE inside the Carpatic Basin. Do not compare the war criminal kossuth with the administrative genius, count Istvan Szechenyi. The Hungarain nation have admirable personalities as count Istvan Szechenyi, but also horrible criminals like kossuth and extremist and racist artists like petofi alexander (born Petrovics, as a Serbian, but of course, rejected by the Serbs). As a conclusion, one of the greatest mistakes of the kossuth ethnocratic gang was to extend them apartheid-style movement into Transsylvania. Of course, in Transsylvania there is a Hungarian Szekler minority (abb 6% of the total population) and an Hungarian speaking minority, most of them the offspring of Hungarized Romanians and Germans (abb 12% of the population) but his is not a valid argument for the intervention of the ETHNOCRATIC GANG's armies of fortune in this province ! It's cruel, barbarian, anti-democratic and shamefull by ALL STANDARDS of human behaviour ! Get real, Start to think as an democratic European ! Reject apartheid style racists as kossuth, petofi, bem, batthyany ! It's not an academic stand to defend and EHNOCRATIC GANG in Wikipedia. The 21th century Europe shoud NOT pay hommage to cruel and antidemocratic criminals and ethnocentric racist poets. The Hungarian people has enough admirable personalities and outstanding accomplishments to be hailed and presented to the wide World.

I am not even going to bother with a political response to that. You just accused me of being anti-democratic, racist, and ethnocentric, not to mention "shameful by all standards of human behavior" because I'm "defending an ethnocratic gang." Regarding my comments about Avram Iancu, I appear to have mixed him up with someone else and I apologize for that. In light of that, I would now like an apology for your description of Sándor Petőfi, one of my favorite poets and one of my country's most beloved historical figures, as an "extremist" and a "ethnocentric racist." K. Lásztocska 15:50, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Three words: Unio Trium Nationum. Biruitorul 17:39, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

sorry I don't understand, what is your point? K. Lásztocska 23:08, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I don't know, just trying to be witty. But persecution and de-nationalization of Romanians in Transylvania did continue until 1918 - is there any reason to believe the 1848 revolutionaries had different intentions? Biruitorul 02:24, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Like I said, the original intent of the revolutionaries was political, not ethnic. The ethnic element made its unpleasant appearance well after the revolution began, and crimes were committed on all sides btw. Not everything in Hungarian history has a sinister ethnic-cleansing/apartheid motive, get that into your head. K. Lásztocska 02:42, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, that came out way grumpier than I intended. No offense meant. K. Lásztocska 03:25, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I will decide what I do or don't get into my head, thank you very much, but for the record, I never claimed that "everything in Hungarian history has a sinister ethnic-cleansing/apartheid motive". However, given the previous, inauspicious 850-year record of Magyar-Romanian relations, "trust but verify" appears to have been a proper attitude for Romanians to take at the revolution's outset, followed in relatively short order by "don't trust - leave Hungary as fast as you can!" Biruitorul 03:11, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Inauspicious history indeed. I assume it's all my country's fault, as usual? You want me to apologize for that terrible day when Árpád led his band of pagan savages into the heart of Christian Europe and ruined everything for good? K. Lásztocska 03:33, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

No and no. I didn't lay blame on either side; I merely stated an opinion. Biruitorul 04:11, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I do not see any contradiction here. Leaders of the revolution wanted to establish a liberal nation state. The project was supposed to be "liberal" as this word was understood in 1848, not in 2007. And nation-state building included ethnic cleansing at that time. I do not think it is fruitful to apply present-day normative standards to any historical event. It is much better just to describe facts and explain causes and consequences, without pushing any moral judgments. Tankred 03:17, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Tankred, I generally agree, but I think "ethnic cleansing" is FAR too strong a term to use. Ethnic cleansing is what happened at Srebrenica and Auschwitz. Ethnic cleansing means annihilation and genocide. Kossuth and his comrades did not want to exterminate anyone. K. Lásztocska 03:28, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

You are right, I agree that a more accurate description would be forced assimilation. By the way, ethnic cleansing does not need to involve mass killing. Unfortunately, journalists use the terms ethnic cleansing and genocide as interchangeable. Tankred 04:45, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, even if the original definition of ethnic cleansing didn't involve mass killing, it sure does now, post-Srebrenica and all. So the term has de facto come to mean "genocide" (don't know if that's the journalists' fault or what...) and we should be veeeeery careful in using terms like that--you and I have both seen what happens around here when someone uses a controversial or inflammatory description about anything in Central Europe! :) By the way, I'd like to publicly apologize here for my grumpy and trollish snide remarks to Biru in the above paragraph--there's no excuse for that sort of childish and asinine sniping, and it won't happen again. K. Lásztocska 05:12, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I too am sorry for any untoward aggressiveness. Biruitorul 05:23, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Austria turned the nationalities against the Hungarians, mainly playing out the era's Pan Slavism against the Hungarians, saying the things you say above. For example Josip Jelačić (a devote supporter and protagonist of the Illyrian movement) got promoted as ban, in exchange for raising an army aganist the Hungarians. BTW more Slovaks fought on the Hungarian side, than against them. Romanians were, and are eastern orthodox ppl. In a catholic country it meant secondary citizenship. Whom wanted to be promoted or simply get higher in the hierarchy, simply left orthodoxy and rebaptized as a catholic. It is misleading do define a 19th century event with 20th century definitions and viewpoints. "Nation" and "ethnicity" does not counted before the French revolution, or in a broader sense, before the enlightement. And Hungary, as the whole region was in at least 50 yrs, but that time even more of lag (and is still in it :) comparing to Western Europe. For example Hungary was still feudalistic in the 1890s (!), when feudalism was demolished in the 16th-17th century. Just remember Széchenyi's writing about how backward country was Hungary in the 1830s, comparing to the West. But divide et impera does existed. And Austria had a long history of using it. - üdv: László

[edit] Move?

If we were to move this article, what would you name it?

• Revolution of 1848 in Hungary
• Hungarian Revolution of 1848 (parallel to Hungarian Revolution of 1956)
• Hungarian Revolution and (Civil?) War of 1848
• Or would you move it at all?

Any other ideas? - TheMightyQuill 07:47, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I've heard "Hungarian War for Independence", but I'm not sure how standard that is. K. Lásztocska 00:49, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Consensus was in favour of the move to Hungarian Revolution of 1848. --bainer (talk) 05:47, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] And the others?

Looking over the long list of others, similarly named "Revolutions of 1848 in XX" one may easily advocate changing to "XX-ish Revolution of 1848" with one notable exception: France. It doesn't seem right to use the title "French Revolution of 1848"; since "French Revolution" is already so iconic and much more significant. One could simply make an exception for France (certainly without breaking precedent) allowing a redirect to stand as a special case, but does anyone else have a solution to propose? István 20:08, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I think the French Revolution of 1848 is quite appropriate. French wikipedia has fr:Révolution française for the iconic revolution and fr:Révolution française de 1848 for the one we're discussing. I'm no expert on revolutions of 1848, but from what's available on wikipedia, it's the other article titles prove more difficult. In the Hapsburg Empire, there were at least two revolts (modern Hungary and Austria). In the italian and german states, there seem to have been a number of distinct revolts, with the latter leading into 1849. Still, German wikipedia does list it as de:Deutsche Revolution 1848/49 so maybe German Revolution of 1848/49 would be okay? Maybe we should ask some German historians... - TheMightyQuill 19:54, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with TMQ, "French Revolution of 1848" seems fine to me (I see your point, though.) K. Lásztocska 20:48, 3 November 2007 (UTC)