Talk:Hollow Earth

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I believe H. P. Lovecraft also wrote a hollow earth story called The Mound, and several others written by him have similar themes. I don't know if you really want the literature section to be any longer, but seeing how there's a reference to a Scrooge McDuck comic in there... 75.209.146.71 (talk) 21:41, 18 May 2008 (UTC)


Contents

[edit] Project Phoenix

The entire section regarding Project Phoenix is being removed. It is a scam, cult, and/or hoax; regardless, wikipedia isn't the place for them to link to a donations page. Their website espouses scientific data that is grossly inaccurate. Its inaccuracy should be apparent even to a virtual laymen, that is, based on the accepted beliefs of the scientific community. If someone outside of the Phoenix Organizations feels it should be reworked into the article, please place it to a vote before reinserting it.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.150.123.48 (talk) 07:49, 11 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] explanation

I would like it very much if Steven Johnson would explain his comment that the "'topology' argument is sophistry, because [it] can be thought of as a coordinate transformation without physical consequences." Mark Miller

From a certain topological viewpoint, a coffee-cup is the "same" as a donut. That doesn't mean we can't distinguish between the two when we have breakfast, because there are physical consequences to the transformation from one to the other. In the same way, saying that there is a topology-preserving transformation that sends "interior" to "exterior" of a sphere is non-controversial — but it doesn't mean that we can't distinguish interior from exterior because the physical laws for the "exterior" of the transformed system are different from the original physical laws for the actual sphere exterior. (Note that I added an explanation to this effect in the article.) —Steven G. Johnson 22:06, Oct 22, 2004 (UTC)

___________________________________

Do't the people who follow the Urantia Book believe in some kind of hollow earth, with accesses near the poles? Unless my memory is doing tricks again, they were on the outside and another civilization was on the inside surface. One dubious account has it that Admiral Byrd had found the northern entrance in 1947. A lot of this seems to belong to the fruitcake school of pseudoscience. See http://www.endtimeprophecy.net/~tttbbs/EPN-1/GroupPages/grupufos.htmlEclecticology

I know OF the Uranita Book, but don't know if they include a belief in a hollow earth. --Emb021 20:18, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Removed the following until somebody who cares makes this NPOV:

Martin Gardner discusses a non-falsifiable Concave Hollow Earth Theory in one chapter of his book On the Wild Side. According to Gardner, this theory states that light rays travel in circular paths, and slow as they approach the center of the spherical star-filled cavern. No energy can reach the center of the cavern, which corresponds to no point a finite distance away from Earth in the widely accepted scientific cosmology. A drill, Gardner says, would lengthen as it traveled away from the cavern and eventually pass through the "point at infinity" corresponding to the center of the Earth in the widely accepted scientific cosmology. Supposedly no experiment can distinguish between the two cosmologies. Martin Gardner does not accept the Concave Hollow Earth Theory, and suggests that the man who proposed it may have had religious motives.

"non-falsifiable"!!!! "widely accepted scientific cosmology"!!!! Yikes! --maveric149

  • I can easily imagine Martin Gardner as the central character in a native American trickster myth. This passage makes it sound as though he's having a laugh at the reader's expense. I'm only starting to grasp the Doctrine of Falsifiability, and, as I understand it, a theory that is non-falsifiable falls outside the tentacles of the scientific method. The behaviour of light in the centre of the cavern gives a picture that is uncomfortable close to the way it behaves in the vicinity of a black hole. The phrase "widely accepted scientific cosmology" doesn't bother me at all; I see it as nothing more than a convenient way to refer to conventional wisdom. Eclecticology
  • Yeah, I never grasped the difficulty here. But I've removed the first disputed phrase. We'd better keep "widely accepted.." 'cause this theory sure as farg ain't widely accepted. Dan 08:17, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Removed:



material below moved from "Hollow earth" article: some text that duplicated material already here removed. The rest needs some merging.

On the inside, gravity pulls things to the center of the mass of the shell. Our "up" is, therefore, their "down". The result: Inner earth people, strange birds and even prehistoric looking mamoths can walk around in the inner forests, lakes and rivers. There is, in some accounts, a central "dusty" sun that provides heat and light to this inner paradise. If true, there would be no night inside. Large entrances may be found somewhere around the north and south poles.

What makes modern science say the earth has a core of molten rock and metal? This article looks at various claims of the hollow earth theory including the science as if the earth is a small naturally occuring (?) Dyson sphere. (A Dyson sphere is an artifical shell built around a star.)

is there any relation between Hollow earth and Agarthi?

--Yak 00:21, Feb 20, 2004 (UTC)

To a degree. The idea of 'hollow earth' is sometime extended to include the idea of large, inhabitable cavern world(s) under the earth's crust, which would include Agarthi. --Emb021


The article states ...direct observation refutes it... Perhaps I am not so observant because I see no direct observation that refutes the theory. 71.37.95.27 18:01, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recent revert

Disagreeing with one change is no justification for reverting all of them. That's rude and counterproductive--save reverting for vandalism. Edit selectively: shift the offending paragraph and leave the inoffensive changes alone. FWIW, I disagree about that move--I think that the fact that the Hollow Earth has been declared pseudoscience and has few or no current adherants has been expressed up front, which is enough to keep people from succumbing to belief in bogus theories. I think it makes more sense, and certainly reads better, to begin with descriptions of the colorful theories rather than the explanation about why these theories can't be true. The article really isn't about science. Also, when you do explain the science that refutes these views, you (or someone) might want to add a sentence about what is known of the earth's interior. --BTfromLA 05:52, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The idea that you could stand on the inner surface of a hollow world is still a widespread misapprehension, so it is both important and interesting to counter it upfront—it changes one's whole conception of hollow Earth theories even as a matter of fantasy. Saying that the Earth isn't hollow (an experimental fact, but not a physical law per se) has nothing to do with this fundamental misunderstanding of gravitation. The only other change you made was to cosmetically alter the first paragraph (and to insert spelling and grammatical errors)—I didn't particularly care for these alterations (e.g. it's not clear to me that there were ever "scientific" claims of a hollow Earth in any meaningful sense of the word), so I didn't see any point in keeping them. —Steven G. Johnson 07:58, Jan 24, 2005 (UTC)
"Scientific" claims (however you'd care to phrase that) are a necessary condition for pseudoscience. --BTfromLA 04:52, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 500 miles thick?!

Edmund Halley in 1692 (Philosophical Transactions of Royal Society of London) put forth the idea of Earth consisting of a hollow shell about 500 miles thick . . . In 1818, John Cleves Symmes, Jr. suggested that the Earth consisted of a hollow shell about 800 miles (1,300 km) thick . . .

500 miles is in the same order of magnitude as the distance from London to Dublin. It's maybe a third the width of Europe. Surely no one could have been so ignorant as to propose such a width? —Simetrical (talk) 10:48, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, maybe I'm just dense but if you're going to believe that the Earth is hollow anyway, why should you worry about figuring out logical dimensions? 209.7.198.2 15:19, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Because while maybe you'd find it plausible that the Earth is hollow a few hundred years ago—after all, who'd actually dug below a few hundred feet?—basic arithmetic has been known for quite some time.

Oh, and by the way, please sign and date your messages by typing four tildes: ~~~~. This makes it easier to keep track of who's saying what in a conversation. Thanks, and welcome to Wikipedia! —Simetrical (talk) 04:13, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

It seems to me that this is irrelevant. All that matters is whether or not Edmund Halley put forth the idea or not. If you have solid evidence that he didn't; then I suggest you edit the article to reflect the facts. --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 11:23, August 2, 2005 (UTC)

Evidently, a planet-sized body cannot rely on bending stiffness of the outer shell to maintain its shape under gravitational attraction, so presumably shape would be maintained by internal gas pressure, rather like a soap bubble. If, as appears to be claimed, the interior vents to the atmosphere, the pressure must be equal to sea level pressure on the outside. The absence of a gravitational field within the interior implies an absence of hydrostatic pressure, so the pressure must be uniform throughout at about 10^5 N/m^2. The pressure is presumably balanced by tensile stress in the crust, having a maximum stress of about 3×10^6 N/m^2. Balancing the pressure force and tension in the skin, we have, for the thickness:

t=\frac{pR}{2\sigma}

where R is the radius of the Earth (≈6.37×10^6 m), p is the gas pressure and σ is the maximum tensile stress of the surface rock. This yields a thickness of 106km. Based on the idea of a soap bubble, the 500-1000km estimates aren't too bad.

This is clearly nonsense, because there is no evidence that the surface rock is everwhere in tension. The pressure would be the same either side of the crust so there can be no net pressure force acting on the shell. Without some excess of internal pressure over external, the bubble will simply collapse - end of story.Gordon Vigurs 11:15, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Regardless of if you think it is nonsense or not, real scientists (unlike yourself) due subscribe to this theory. Something may not be widely accepted and still be right. Fact of the matter is, Congress wouldn't have funded Admiral Byrd's expeditions to Antarctica/North Pole had there not been something there to address. America wasn't the only country interested in finding out about these areas as well. 129.21.144.217 16:24, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jules Verne

Verne never argued fr a hollow earth, rather his book deals with an earth penetrable to far greater depths than hitherto believed, and with the existence within the earth of immense cavern pockets capable of sustaining breathable atmosphere at surface temperatures, with flowing water, vestigial weather, and independent bio-mass. --SockpuppetSamuelson 10:59, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Depends on how you use the term "hollow earth". Some writers speak of 2 basic 'hollow earth theories'. The 'liberal theory', which postulates the idea of the earth being a hollow shell with a mini-sun at the center; and the 'conservative theory', which postulates large, habitable caves, in the earth's crust. Verne's work, as well as the ideas of Agharta, Shaver, etc, falls into this later group. --Emb021

How do partisan politics play into this discussion? Sorry if I am ignorant but I don't understand the use of "liberal/conservative" to describe these theories.Stovetopcookies 23:03, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
What does partisan politics have to do with the terms liberal and conservative? Liberal=open-minded, generous. Conservative= avoiding excess, cautious. yeah, those terms seem to fit here all right. Rihk 03:32, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gravity

"Newton's law of gravity mathematically implies a gravitational force of zero everywhere inside a spherically symmetric hollow shell of matter, regardless of the shell thickness"

My understanding is that the net effect of gravity would only result in a zero force at the exact center of the sphere.

Your understanding is wrong; the force is zero anywhere inside the sphere. (This is a classic freshman physics problem, by the way.)

Also, "regardless of the shell thickness" is an issue. For a simple example, assume that the earth has a small hollow in the center (a bubble in the inner core, for example) of one km in diameter. We wouldn't even notice the difference, not would miners who dig down in to the crust.

We wouldn't notice the difference outside the sphere. However, inside the bubble, which is what the article describes, the gravity would be zero. —Steven G. Johnson 15:01, August 17, 2005 (UTC)
... If the bubble has the same center as the Earth. Otherwise, there would be some gravity.--Bloodstained Agar 09:31, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

It wouldn't be a spherically symmetric hollow shell otherwise, now, would it? —Simetrical (talk) 01:37, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Gravity should be away from the center towards a concentric sphere ad infinitum

The gravity should be outwards inside the sphere towards a cocentric circle around the center. The gravity should be away from the center. The 'heaviest part' of the earth should be a smaller sphere sharing the same center. The size could perhaps be computed by moment of inertia? but this is for inertia. (moment for gravity?)--Jondel 02:28, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Nope. —Steven G. Johnson 02:46, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

If you are dead center , you'd float. At the surface of the bubble you could stand(?)--Jondel 02:50, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Shouldn't the gravity vary from zero at the center and increase towards the bubble surface and 'under ' the bubble surface towards the co-centric sphere?--Jondel 03:00, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Nope. In a concentric spherical bubble within a spherical mass, the gravity is zero everywhere within the bubble. (This is a standard freshman physics result and can be found in many undergraduate textbooks.) —Steven G. Johnson 03:42, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

OK. Thank you for replying. Then, a little above the bubble surface, things should float (0 g)? At the bubble surface or just below, things have weight (?) they rest, or fall away from or towards the center(?). I hope I'm not taxing your patience. --Jondel 04:11, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Inside the bubble, things float. Outside the bubble, gravity pulls towards the center of the sphere. —Steven G. Johnson

And if you're only partway inside the bubble, gravity would apply proportionally. If your feet were an inch into the inner surface of the sphere, for instance, a tiny little bit of net gravity would be exerted on them. If all of you was below the surface (where the outside of the sphere is understood to be "down"), the gravitational pull would be greater. If you were entirely outside the sphere, you would be pulled toward it. Of course, the precise amounts of force would depend on the masses and distances involved. —Simetrical (talk) 04:12, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Has the shell theorem, or any such "standard freshman physics result," been demonstrated empirically anywhere? Or is this simply "utextbook physics" of a theoretical nature, that undergraduates are expected to memorize? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gordon_Vigurs (talk • contribs) 2006-07-26 04:55 (UTC)

Whilst I agree with the sentiments, this wasn't my comment Gordon Vigurs 09:31, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Since I have been accused of making a comment, I think I shall do so. The 'freshman exercise' considers the force on a particle within the spherical shell. The problem is symmetrical about a line joining the centre of the shell to the particle, so we only need to consider the component of gravitational force in this direction. This is made up of the attraction of infinitesmal annular rings centred on this axis. Integrating over the whole sphere, the result is zero net force everywhere within the spherical shell. Now, although the particle remains in equilibrium under the gravitational attraction of the shell, the individual infinitesmal parts of the shell experience a net force of attraction in the direction of the particle. We cannot seriously invoke elastic forces to hold a planetary-sized object's shape, so what is it that keeps the shell intact? By implication, the shell cannot be stable. Gordon Vigurs 18:12, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

How might one go about testing or demonstrating the shell theorem? Does the weightlessness result depend on perfect concentricity and/or the centrality of the hollow? If I go into a cave, or if I dig a hole in the ground and make it nearly a perfect bubble, why am I not necessarily weightless? I have dug a fairly large underground hole that was close to being spherical but I did not float. I have also visited many caverns without ever floating. What part of the theory am I misunderstanding? 160.253.0.248 21:09, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

The hole has to be at the center of the earth—the theorem only applies to concentric spherical shapes—so I doubt any of the caves you've visited go that deep. =) The shell theorem is pretty central to the description of planetary motion and many other gravity-related phenomena (and equivalent results appear elsewhere, e.g. in electromagnetism), so yes, it has been extensively tested. —Steven G. Johnson 22:31, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

The point is that if the hole is at the center of the Earth, there's equal mass in all directions, so gravitational pull is equal in all directions. Intuitively, you might think that you should have to be in the center of the hole as well; however, if you do the math, you'll figure out that in fact this isn't the case. And yes, Newton's law of
F_g = \frac{M_1M_2G}{D^2}
has been empirically proven to be an excellent approximation of gravitational force when you're reasonably far away from massive objects such as stars. Obviously no one has made an enormous planetlike shell and tried to float in it, but the result of zero gravity inside a shell is a straightforward result of Newton's law (I don't know the exact proof offhand, but I'd guess it involves a fairly basic application of definite integrals). I'm not quite sure whether the same result holds true if the shell has an impossibly great density, such that relativity would be the only way to get accurate measurements of the gravitational attraction, but I'd guess it would—possibly Steven here knows.

The weightlessness theorem only applies perfectly to situations where the concentricity and sphericity are perfect (and where no other masses exist). It applies imperfectly to imperfect situations, with the imperfection of the result proportional to the imperfection of the setup. If you dig a hole, the imperfection of the setup is near-total (concentricity is completely out the window, by a factor probably of millions), and so the results are equally imperfect (negligible reduction in gravitational pull). —Simetrical (talk) 05:10, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Does the theorem have any requirements regarding motion by the sphere, like, say, Earth's daily rotation? Also, how would all this relate to a situation like the climactic scene of Contact, in which Ellie is weightless inside the sphere, but her chair isn't because it's attached to the sphere itself? (Did they get it right?) —Darrell M. 144.81.62.177 18:44, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
The theorem has nothing to do with motion. (In Newton's model of gravity, gravitational force changes instantaneously as masses move around, so only the relative positions matter. This is modified by general relativity, but the corrections are probably negligible here.) Rotation does introduce centrifugal forces if you rotate with the surface, as mentioned in the article, but these are pretty small (1/300 of Earth gravity at the equator). I haven't seen Contact, so I have no idea about the scene you describe. —Steven G. Johnson 21:33, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
About the scene in Contact: First of all, there's no way that the mass of the spherical pod could possibly have enough mass to exert noticeable gravity, even if the spherical-shell theory is assumed to be incorrect. Secondly, the pod itself is an advanced artifact that appears to open wormholes, so it must itself have a very bizarre gravitational field when running. If you've got gravity control, there's nothing to say you can't bend it so the perceived gee is zero for a five foot wide interior of the pod and 20g for one inch away from the skin. Further discussion of this probably belongs in Talk:Contact_(film)... or outside WP altogether. --Rpresser 16:58, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

BTW, there are many discoveries that the center rotates faster than the earth surface. I can find sources on the web. Please watch Contact starring Jodie Foster.--Jondel 08:28, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

That's for the real Earth. We are talking about the fantasy Earth of a rotating rigid shell. —Steven G. Johnson 18:17, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
How stable is a hollow shell, which is so large that elastic forces are negligible, under gravity? Gordon Vigurs 08:55, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
How can an object larger than, say 100km across, possibly be rigid? It must be made of solid unobtanium! Gordon Vigurs 14:01, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Or Skrith? Lance Tyrell81.145.241.242 (talk) 16:43, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Centrifugal force

Would not the centrifugal force of the earth's rotation result in a gravitational force inside the sphere toward the wall of the "bubble" as it has been previously called? It would appear to me that the gravitational force would be at its maximum at the equator because that is the area of the highest linear velocity, and the gravitational force would decrease dramatically as one gets closer to the poles. Stovetopcookies 23:05, 7 November 2006 (UTC)\

--==__==--

-- Well, considering Newton was talking about a completely enclosed space, how does this support the fact? The earth is not a bubble, there are ways to enter through the "holes at the poles"; therefore, the earth is not a complete sphere. Instead, the earth is a pseudo-sphere (for the lack of a better term). My pseudo-sphere has a regular spherical body, but a semi-straight cut at the poles: Like the circular beads of a necklace. Would this not be enough to leak some atmosphere in, just as well, atmospheric pressure would be taken into consideration. Atmospheric pressure varies depending on how close or how far you are away from the earth. So, if we are to believe in nature and all the natural things that happen: ie, tornadoes, earthquakes, plate techtonics, and mountains, then pressures would vary inside the earth as well. This pressure would also create enough of a wind, and with wind you need weights, weights would lead to some sort of gravity (probably in an incorrect order); therefore, the earth potenially has gravity within. Remember, bubbles have no holes: the earth does. I do agree if the earth was completely and utterly enclosed that Newtons law would apply; however, I do not believe it does in this case. Besides, this is just a small piece of the theory puzzle. From my understanding, and forgive my ignorance by omitting this comment in its entirety, the atmosphere is what is keeping us from being flung out into the open space is it not? Therfore with a misdirection (for the lack of a better term) of the atmosphere not containing the effect that it would on the outside since we are dealing with the inside that is shielded by the earths crust, would that not pull toward the surface? How would we really be able to tell, the systems (atmospheric pressure, gravity, etc.) in which we are dealing with are so large. Consider this to be against the "freshman physics problem". :citation needed?:

P.S.- Would size and rotational speed not play a role in smaller models when taking into consideration atmospheric pressure, or would they not sustain the requirements for any atmosphere at all to be present? If no sustainable atmosphere, then one has to uderstand that the earth does have one, bubble or not, gravity would have to apply. Furthermore, in this open space (space) how can we actaully tell how fast we are moving when we have no stationary objects to measure from? The Earths rotational speed could only be a comparison to the speeds of other objects that are also moving around in space. 66.79.234.139 08:39, 11 January 2007 (UTC) John

"I do agree if the earth was completely and utterly enclosed that Newtons law would apply;" Stop. The "shell theorem" would not apply, but there is no reason that Newton's laws wouldn't. The Hollow Earth look like a bubble, so its gravitiy look like the bubble's one. There would be some special effects near the hole, for sure (for exemple, one could fall through the pole's hole, but after a while inside the bubble, it would just float.) I don't know exactly what would happen in this Hollow Earth, but I doubt that it would just work as easy.Kromsson 20:06, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
"the atmosphere is what is keeping us from being flung out into the open space is it not?" Nope. Further more, Archimede thrust lifts everything a bit, and it is caused by the weight of the atmosphere.Kromsson 20:05, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] External links

"The Expanding Hollow Earth Theory - Serious scientific evidence supporting the Hollow Earth Theory and the Expanding Earth Theory."(from article). I have not read this book, but judging from the website, I don't think this is serious scientific evidence.. Should it be edited? 15:02, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move debate was to withdraw this move request. jareha (comments) 06:04, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Hollow Earth → hollow earth – Capitalization fix.

[edit] Survey

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
 Read ETIDORHPA

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments

So what exactly is wrong with the current spelling? Article names normally begin with a capital letter, and Earth in this case is the name of the planet and is thus properly capitalised as well. int19h 05:13, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

You're right, I'll withdraw this request. Not sure why I blanked and thought Earth should've been "earth". Must've been the lowercasing of hollow earth in the first paragraph that threw me off. That said, we should fix the rather schizophrenic capitalization of the phrase throughout the article. jareha (comments) 05:48, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.


[edit] Voyage hollow Earth

Under External Links, there is a reference to http://www.voyagehollowearth.com/, Journey to the North Pole and Beyond - 24 day Trip, June 26, 2006 - July 19, 2006. Expedition aboard the IceBreaker YAMAL.

Checking the indicated link shows that the date is 2007 in stead of 2006.

Either the Date in this article is wrong, or the date has been changed on the external website in the mean time. This would make that website look like a fake.

I just went there and I got a message saying the site is no longer active. And I wanted to go, too. )-: Stovetopcookies 23:29, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fictional Worlds based on the Hollow Earth

I am deleting this section, whose present contents were:

  • Dinotopia
  • Hyrule (Legend of Zelda)
  • Land of Oz (Wizard of Oz)
  • Middle Earth (Lord of the Rings)
  • Mushroom Kingdom (Super Mario Brothers)
  • Narnia
  • Zion (The Matrix)

I find no connection to any of these worlds and the Hollow Earth theory. Dinotopia is an island, the Hyrule page give no such indication, Middle Earth was not located in the Earth's interior, etc. --Ogdred 22:15, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree, especially concerning the Hyrule reference. I was like "what!?" At the very least, I could give the benefit of the doubt and think of Termina, the other fictional Zelda world. My reason being that the beginning of the game features enormous, seemingly bottomless caverns that could conceivably be a hollow earth.

Narnia was a parallel universe accessible through a wall behind a bookshelf, if I remember correctly. As for Dinotopia, I do beleive it was referred to as an island, but I suppose the misconception could arise from Jules Verne's Journey to the Center of the Earth in which there were large caverns where dinosaurs still lived.

Stovetopcookies 23:13, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Should that television commerical where the Dodge Nitro drops through the earth, passing by fantasic underground worlds, ending up at an asian village, be included?

If memory serves, Dinotopia was an island on the INNER SURFACE of the earth. In the book, of course; te movie was corrupted to near unrecognizability. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.78.16.118 (talk) 01:12, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Expedition

I have no affiliation with the PSF and I was the original contributor of the expedition information. 72.150.123.48 claims that the website contains inaccurate scientific data, but after looking at the PSF website, I found no such claims. Although the website is a bit amateur-ish for a scientific organization, I guess we will find out the truth by July 2007 when this expedition is supposed to take place. I would like to put this section to a vote, but I'm not sure how. Templeofthedog7 02:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] hollow moon

I wonder if some of the more experienced debunkers might help out with Hollow moon. The theory existed in a highly PoV fashion for several weeks on wp. I had never heard of the "theory" but I looked it up a little, and there's still quite a bit of misinformation out there (mostly on hollow earth pages). For that reason I oppose a delete. Anyone want to step up with some debunking goodness? Charles (Kznf) 22:41, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I did stumble across this and blogged it up [1] and while I don't consider it very likely all I can offer is more details to support the contention. Of course, even the weirdest things need to have balanced coverage I suppose. (Emperor 00:50, 9 March 2007 (UTC))

There was this joke explaining how Space: 1999 was able to explode an Eagle spacecraft at least once every episode. The moon was hollow and filled with these Eagles.

[edit] Not NPOV

I don't think that this article is NPOV. It's a huge article explaining various fringe theories and then two paragraphs (poorly) refuting it and a sentence in the introduction saying it's false. The large majority of the article is also unsourced. Perhaps a section could be added on views against Hollow Earth. — Pious7 21:36, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

You're kidding, right? It's clear from the start of the article that the idea is bunk
("the hypothesis of a Hollow Earth has long been contradicted by overwhelming evidence as well as by the modern understanding of planet formation, and the scientific community now dismisses the notion as pseudoscience") The article discusses what proponents thought and/or argued, it doesn't *support* those ideas. I'm removing the tag. - DavidWBrooks 00:34, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
that sentence is missing in current version. I added it back in. Lot49a (talk) 22:29, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Note for Michaelbusch

You might want to be more careful in your deletions, and your characterizations of the material deleted. You recently reverted an edit of mine as "misleading and nonsensical." I saw nothing to warrant such a characterization, and so restored it. I notice you have made another deletion with the same characterization, this time of one sentence in the entry preceding my addition to the list. I had edited that entry at the same time I added mine to move the title of the item to a more sensible place; the statement objected to was pre-existing, and having no knowledge one way or another of whether its characterization of some people's belief was accurate I let it stand. Since your problem appears to have been with that sentence, you ought to have limited your original deletion (and characterization) to that sentence alone, and left the valid material alone. Just a little friendly advice.BPK 19:15, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Notable?

I removed these two paragraphs as they appear to be about an idea of limited notability:

In 2001 the Australian father-and-son team Kevin and Matthew Taylor self-published the book The Land of No Horizon (direct link National Library of Australia ISBN 0-646-41057-1). Among other things it proposes an expanding and hollow Earth (as well as other planetary bodies) which eventually reached equilibrium. The book also looks at a range of topics including but not limited to evolution, human physiology, impact craters and other geology in light of such a hollow Earth.
Kevin and Matthew Taylor's view of a hollow planet envisages a hollow globe with a small (depending on planet size) central sun ignited by radiation from the inner surface. They use this view both to explain Earth's magnetic field (replacing the dynamo theory) and the origin and ignition of stars.

I refer to WP:FRINGE, WP:V, WP:RS, etc. for why this text doesn't belong in the article.

24.199.99.169 22:54, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Concur. Thanks for catching it. Michaelbusch 23:55, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mentioning disclaimers(?)

Regarding Obruchev's Plutonia (and probably other "hollow Earth" books by other authors) - it might be worth noting in the article that the book's author himself did not believe the Earth to be hollow. Obruchev explained in preface that the Earth is hollow in the book only because he wanted to write an educational story about dinosaurs, and there already wasn't much unexplored territory left on Earth for such story to take place. He did, however, recieve considerable amount of correspondence that indicated how few people actually read prefaces.

[edit] fiction and culture

I like "references in culture" sections in articles, but this one has gotten way out of hand and should, I think, be removed. It has become an enormous list, which is one of the things that wikipedia is not. I guess the hollow-earth concept is too widespread to be listed out. Instead I think we need a paragraph or two that talks about the fact that it's a commonly used plot device, and that's all.

I thought I'd mention this here first, before making such a drastic change. Any thoughts? - DavidWBrooks (talk) 00:04, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I approve culling the example farm, but a few specific examples should be kept. In particular, Edgar Rice Burroughs' books. Michaelbusch (talk) 01:08, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
What should we use to separate the wheat from the chaff, then? Once you let in Edgar Rice Burroughs, why not the scads of other scifi/fantasy authors listed? If we keep any list, we need a good argument to prevent it from growing back to this size. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 01:30, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
I would apply common sense and WP:N. Michaelbusch (talk) 02:59, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Which translates into "constantly removing rubbish for the rest of eternity", alas. That's one of the advantages of completely removing a list. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 12:02, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Well, I took out all the comic/cartoon/videogame references. Let's see what happens. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 19:51, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
It's creeping back up, two months later - 21 books and 7 "other" references. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 15:54, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] North pole expedition

Some clown named Agnew Brooks is perpetuating the theory and organizing a new North Pole expedition to go inside the earth again. The radio talks and some videos are up on youtube as well. There ought to be a section on it. Its been in a few newspapers as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Savuporo (talk • contribs) 17:52, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Brooks Agnew, actually. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 19:52, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] admiral byrd's flight

Why is there no information on Admiral Byrd? I've read a great deal about his flight logs and such. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sir tetra (talk • contribs) 08:00, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Introduction and reference to 15 miles of drilling

"thus direct knowledge of the Earth's structure extends only that far."

That's a misrepresentation of what's meant by "direct knowledge." Information gained from sources other than visual still counts as "direct." I'm changing the wording to "visual," since that's as strong/truthful a description as could be in the context of the article. Ryanluck (talk) 17:00, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ufology

Why does the article have a ufology-box at the bottom? I can't see the connection with hollow earth! --83.72.7.63 (talk) 19:40, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Some branches of UFOlogy maintain that UFOs originate in the hollow of the earth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.78.16.118 (talk) 01:15, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Books by Adam Seaborn "Symzonia" and Professor Symmes "Symmes theory...."

At one time I owned a store called Cachivaches y otros adefecios ilimitada, a used goods and antique shop in Lima Peru and the two books were sold to me and by me. The Seaborn book was dated 1829 and the Symmes theory of concentric circles proving that the earth is hollow and habitable within was 1832 ie three years after the novel which has stuck in my memory as also the Z in Symzonia. If I remember rightly I mentioned them in a letter to Martin Gardner. Are other copies of the books extant? Prof Symmes has a dedication to the Emperor Napoleon the third by Symmes widow on the fly .92.234.53.41 (talk) 03:20, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Myths and hints

The oldest claims of the hollow earth are Tibetian myths. Those myths report of 3 openings into the earth: 2 near the poles and 1 in the Himalaya. The Thule society, which was closely known by Adolf Hitler, reported much about those myths. There is even the theory that Hitler ordered a research journey for such an opening in the Antarctica. This theory is based on a speech of admiral Dönitz in front of the German submarine in 1944. During that speech, Dönitz claims, “The German submarine fleet is proud of having built an invinsible fortification for the Führer, anywhere in the world.” During the Nuremberg Trials, Dönitz spoke of “an invinsible fortification, inmidst of the eternal ice.” These are the only serious hints of the theory of the hollow earth.

I request you to discuss this part of the article, which was deleted. I think this is in no way "spiritual" or "esoteric", but rather serious, since I also gave serious sources. What's your opinion? Should this be a part of the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.185.234.196 (talk) 11:34, 2008 April 20 (UTC)