Talk:Hoi polloi

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Good article Hoi polloi has been listed as one of the Language and literature good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.

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[edit] Misuse to mean "upper class"

The misuse to mean "upper class" has been mildly challenged. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition usage note supports the existence of the common misuse, though is not the source. -- Bitt 00:10, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Could we cite the source for this misuse in the main article? Personally I had never heard the word misused in this way, and thought maybe the author was confused with "hoity-toity." --63.65.27.18 13:41, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The links that are supposed to be evidence of this misuse don't work or don't retrieve anything that refers to it. I've never heard this misuse either so I don't understand why the Wikipedia article refers to it. Maybe somebody somewhere didn't know what "hoi polloi" meant and was confused by it, but who cares? 65.114.23.6 22:51, 25 August 2007 (UTC)


uh, the three stooges misused it that way in 1935. And Larry King's use of the term to describe the sport of polo, also discussed in the article may qualify as a misuse; I think its debatable that such a vox populi as Larry King would not be asserting his i'm-so-common brand aspects by using "hoi polloi" in its popular (three stooges, dammit!) sense of "those who use the term 'hoi polloi' to mean 'masses'" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Minitrue (talk • contribs) 01:46, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't see why the occasional misuse of a word should be included in a WP article. Especially since there are no very good references for this. I suggest removing it, and will do so unless there are reasons advanced for not doing so. Cooke (talk) 22:52, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
I think that "Also, the phrase has at times been used to mean the exact opposite of its originally intended meaning," as the article says now, is sufficient. I've heard the misuse of the term, but the article needn't dwell on anything but the correct use. Alpheus (talk) 20:59, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dictionary article?

Would this not be better as a wiktionary article?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.110.86.44 (talk • contribs) 18:17, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree. I wish i knew how to nominate a page for moving. --Orthografer 01:20, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
I believe there is enough encyclopedic content here for this to merit inclusion in the encyclopedia. Johntex\talk 01:31, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Idiom list or English phrases category

Does this article belong in any of these? I can find no phrases borrowed from other languages on those pages. Nor is it listed in the Wictionary idioms category. meco 17:12, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I don't understand the question. To which pages are referring when you say "those pages"? Thanks, Johntex\talk 18:06, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

List_of_idioms_in_the_English_language and Category:English phrases was what I was thinking of. The latter is perhaps illogical since Hoi Polloi is obviously a Greek expression, but I figured it should perhaps also be classified as an English phrase. The parallell to Latin phrases is alluring, but they are a gazillion whereas Hoi Polloi is virtually alone (and lost) in its Greek phrases category. meco 18:50, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I understand your question now. I think a case could be made for Category:English phrases since the phrase is used in English. I don't think the phrase qualifies as an idiom since it means pretty much what the Greek words themselves mean. True, there is a nuance of meaning there that is not neccessarily obvious, but I am not sure that qualifies it to be considered an idiom in the way that "all hat and no cattle" or "a few fries short of a happy meal" would be idioms. You may also want to post your question to those category talk pages, as I don't think this page gets that much traffic. Best, Johntex\talk 19:00, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Problem with footnotes

Seems to be a problem with footnotes from #5 onwards. I don't know how to fix them. Nurg 04:15, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll go through and fix them when I have a bit more time. Johntex\talk 14:37, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Forgot to mention - I fixed them. Johntex\talk 01:08, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Middle America

Surley A More World Wide Definition Than "Middle America" Would Be Better Understood —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.146.5.172 (talk) 18:38, 18 January 2007 (UTC).

Well, that's one of 14 synonyms listed. They are all supported by the source and listed in the order provided by the source, which seems to best order to me. Perhaps you would like to consider one of the other 13 in forming your udnerstanding? Johntex\talk 06:14, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
As it's decidedly an unhelpful addition to the article, I'm going to delete it and replace it with an ellipsis. The quotation will just start two words later. --Dweller 15:56, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gospel band

"Alternative gospel band Hoi Polloi was formed in New Zealand by vocalist Jenny Gullen, her husband, bassist Andrew Horst, guitarist David Ball and drummer Jozsef Fityus. Moving to the U.S., Hoi Polloi performed their first gig at the 1990 Cornerstone Festival and signed to the gospel label Reunion soon after. A restrictive contract, however, forced the band into two albums that overly polished their rugged, rootsy sound, Hoi Polloi (1992) and Spin Me (1993). Ball and Fityus returned to the homeland in 1994, forcing the recruitment of New Zealand native Scott Pearson on drums and American guitarist Troy Daugherty. In mid-1995, Hoi Polloi released Happy Ever After; its single "Tiptoe" spent eight weeks at the top of the Christian rock charts, and the album crossed over to college and commercial-alternative radio. ~ John Bush, All Music Guide"

The section on "Other Uses" contained rather too much detail on the Hoi Polloi band. I removed it, but I'll add it here in case someone decides to create an article on the band and could find the info useful. Galanskov 08:03, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Is the image used insulting?

I'm not one to jump on the PC bandwagon in general, but in this case I find the picture to be innappropriate. The reasons that come to mind, once I start down that PC path, include the declaration that they are hoi polloi but the use of "perceived" in "perceived maltreatment" and that they are developing world people rather than westerners, since westerners make up most of Wikipedia's users - I can only imagine the response if the image showed protesting U.S. minorities, assuming someone noticed it. Now, all this hinges on the term being significantly derogatory, as I understand it to be. However, I'm not going to change it since I realize it might not have the connotations I have assumed it does (I suspect originally it was just descriptive), and because I can't think of an image to replace it with, let alone have one to use, not that every article must have an image. Any thoughts? --Fitzhugh 01:36, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

The use of the word "perceived" in the caption to the photograph is sarcastic and demeaning. I assume this is vandalism.Tudhaliya 19:22, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I also think the caption is inappropriate, and I'm not sure there is any great need for an image in this article anyway. A famous painting or something with "hoi polloi" in the name might make sense, but just taking an image of protesters and calling them "hoi polloi" seems to add a political slant to the article. Personally I think it would be better to have no image than one of this type. The image and caption were added last june in this edit by User:Johntex, who did a lot of work on this article, so I don't think it's a case of vandalism. Johntex apparently is still an active contributor so I'll mention this discussion on his talk page.--Eloil 17:58, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

  • Hi Eloil, thanks for contacting me about this discussion. I did add the image and the caption and I certainly don't think there is anything inappropriate about it at all. I used the word "perceived" because it is in fact a matter of a person's perception whether they are being maltreated or not. To simply remove the word "perceived" would be to take the side of the protesters that they are correct in their assertions. If you don't like the word "perceived" we could use say something like "The hoi polloi march in a protest for more rights" or something to that effect. Johntex\talk 16:57, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Also, Fitzhugh, this has nothing to do with minorities. The people in that photo are in the ethnic majority in the nation where they live. Hoi polloi is about class, not race. Johntex\talk 17:37, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Hearing no complaints, I have updated the capture to say, "The Hoi Polloi march in a protest for more rights." Johntex\talk 19:21, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
It is an interesting choice to use as hoi polloi. It certainly could easily be interpreted negatively, as an implicit slight on protesters. It really depends on the definition in mind, and informs on how those that see protesters in this way understand, or at least are using in this instance, the term. It could be unintentional and not intended as a slight. Does hoi polloi simply mean the many? Clearly, protesters are the many, in that they're common people, not in power (whether or not mainstream --protests can be radical or pervasive). So it can fit as an example under this general definition. But, if they were empowered they needn't protest. The way I've understood the term is more in line with the hysterical, uneducated masses; not the aware thus discontented (and protesting) yet outsider. Non-hoi polloi, the ruling class, are an elite, insular group. Those people would view the uppity protesters as hoi polloi. We can agree that it has to do with status, with socioeconomic class. I don't think it's the most general, common, or applicable example of hoi polloi, but I suppose I have no severe problem with it. Opposed, I am not, to a better example, however. Any use of the term is derogatory whether it be to protests, huge sporting events, or whatever, maybe I'm splitting hairs. Evolauxia 04:48, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't think the picture is much good, and it could be construed as POV. Also, I question the capitalization, namely 'Hoi Polloi', in its caption. Alpheus (talk) 21:02, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

I've never come across the English pronunciation "ho-ee poll-oo-ee". It's "hoy puh-loy", to rhyme with toy. My dictionary agrees. 143.252.80.100 17:46, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

And this is exactly what the article says.--   Avg    17:52, 13 September 2007 (UTC)