Talk:Hiberno-English

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  1. February 2002 – September 2006

Contents

[edit] Changed 'Republic of Ireland' to 'Ireland'

I changed the line 'British English, however, remains the greatest influence on grammar, spelling and lexicon on English in <the Republic of> Ireland.' as the language used can be found throughout the whole island of Ireland as opposed to just the Republic of Ireland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.223.163.6 (talk) 11:48, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] False derivations

I am trying to go through the long list of jokey slang words in this article and change the fanciful folk derivations given to proper etymologies (e.g. I just fixed "jackeen" and "jacks"). But it's a mammoth task. Whoever entered all this text in the entry did no-one any favours -- there is no linguistic basis for any of it, just a desire for folksy whimsy. Help fix it please. Pleidhce (talk) 01:01, 12 February 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Changed Dublin English section

I edited the Dublin English section so that all the facts there are directly derived from Dublin English: Evolution and Change by Raymond Hickey--an actual book by an actual linguist written two years ago. It's a start, at least.

[edit] I, for one, welcome our linguistic overlords

Echoing sentiments scattered about on this page, this article is in need of a complete rewrite by a linguistic historian. Sorry folks, amateur linguistics is the stuff of bad jokes, and this page is an ad hoc, anecdotal, and thoroughly incomplete attempt at best. Not to mention it fails to acknowledge regional dialects and variations outside of the largest metropolitan areas, as if they don't exist. These local variations are in fact where some of the most interesting linguistic synergies are to be found. In summary, this article reads more like a chapter from a Fodor's travel guide to Ireland than an encyclopedia article.


[edit] Dublin, Cork and Kerry accents

I was looking at the list of English dialects in Wikipedia, which is very logically sub-divided. Under "Ireland" I then found Hiberno-English and came to this article. So I expected to then find the different 'dialects' of English as spoken in Ireland listed. When reading this article, however, it mentioned Dublin and says that the accents here differ from the rest of the country, and it mentions Cork and again says the accents differ from the rest of the country. It doesn't mention other accents. I'm not sure if the implication is that Dublin and Cork are exceptions, and the rest of the country all speaks a similar brand of 'Hiberno-English? I think this article could benefit from at least breaking down the dialects/accents in Ireland (i.e. Republic of Ireland as I assume Northern Ireland is covered under the UK), and ensuring that every area in Ireland is covered. I would suggest, for a start, that the distinctive Kerry accent should be kept separate from other accents. I think there may be a distinctive Donegal accent too, but I'm not sure about that. I know it's difficult because the accents just merge into one another as you travel around Ireland, but you do have that problem in every country. At the very least could I suggest that the accents be divided into the Cork accent, the Kerry accent, the rest of the country except Dublin, and then Dublin could be divided into two, the general Dublin accent, and the very pronounced accent you hear in the markets in central Dublin (the Dublin equivalent of 'Cockney'). What do others think? 82.35.15.212 06:05, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree, I gather dialects in the wild exhibit differences every 1 or 2 hundred miles; mass media and other factors interfere with that pattern. The way Hiberno-English seems set up as a discipline the interest is Irishness rather than dialect I think Hakluyt bean 02:03, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please define airing cupboard.

what is "airing cupboard", "airing cupboard"?

As Time Goes By.

Thank You.

hopiakuta ; [[ <nowiki> </nowiki> { [[%c2%a1]] [[%c2%bf]] [[ %7e%7e%7e%7e ]] } ;]] 18:34, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

airing cupboard. hopiakuta ; [[ <nowiki> </nowiki> { [[%c2%a1]] [[%c2%bf]] [[ %7e%7e%7e%7e ]] } ;]] 21:58, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

It's a cupboard (or press in Hiberno-English) over the water heater/boiler where the likes of bedclothes and towels are put after drying to "air" them. Donnacha 22:08, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

In Ireland it's frequently called the hot-press

[edit] What a mess

Yes, this page is a disaster. Alas so many Irish pages on Wikipedia are the victims of ignorant enthusiasts. I could spend my whole life trying to fix these pages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pleidhce (talk • contribs) 02:03, 8 February 2008 (UTC) Pleidhce (talk) 02:06, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I got rid of the totally amateurish and out-of-place section on Cork, which had no linguistic basis, but was obviously written by someone with a touching but misguided desire to talk about his/her home-town. Pleidhce (talk) 02:08, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

This article is a hotch-potch of hunches, factoids, urban legend and folk-linguistic speculation, combined with lists of various favourite words and phrases, the whole misleadingly presented as reliable information. It reads like an article on plant physiology written by an accountant who fancies he has green fingers. It's in desperate need of attention, if not top-to-bottom rewriting, by a linguist (as opposed to an enthusiastic amateur) who has actually systematically studied Hiberno-English on the basis of the wealth of scholarship that's been done over the last century and more. Someone who won't, for example, confuse phonemes with letters, writing things like "'r' is pronounced wherever it occurs in the word".

For fecks sake this is wikipedia! If you want stuff like that go to Brittannica.
I agree this entry is a mess, although it's generally more incomplete than incorrect. Also, there's some historical dialect features that are fairly anachronistic in modern speech (the herd/bird/curd and hoarse/horse splits are pretty rare in most modern dialects--they mostly merge the same way the Americans and British do). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.73.95.84 (talk) 20:34, 14 January 2007 (UTC).
This may be Wikipedia, but it should still be accurate as possible. This seems odd for an article on Hiberno English, as there must be a large number of formal (primary and secondary textbook) references on it (my Syntax textbook used it to demonstrate differences from standard English syntax). -- Jim Witte —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.9.143.221 (talk) 01:30, 29 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Langerhead

""Langer" is a variant used especially in Cork but has began to spread through the rest of the country."

Langer originates with Irish soldiers in the english army stationed in India. Langar monkeys would wake them at all hours and throw crap at them so langar became a term of abuse. This was imported to Cork on their return. Check out http://langerland.com .

corrected the link (ar to er) Hakluyt bean 17:35, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Unrelated, but I popped in to say that the word scallion is by no means Hiberno-English. The Joy of Cooking (American, 1997 update) refers to the onion in question as "scallions, called green onions in some parts of the country.", but uses the term scallions in recipes. I'm in my kitchen in Florida looking at a store-bought Thai cooking sauce, and the recipe suggestion also specifies scallions. Just doing my part to debunk the scholarliness of this article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.244.170.125 (talk • contribs).

[edit] Langar monkey business

If Langar monkeys were a menace to the English army to the point where it became a term of abuse among them, then it's a bit baffling why the term survived only in Cork. I'd like a source on this etymology. It sounds like one of those top-of-the-head folk etymologies based on the coincidence of two like-sounding words.

[edit] Langur monkey

As far as I know, the term 'langer' isn't very common in any area other than Cork, although I've heard it being used in Dublin once or twice. Although I'm not absolutely sure of this, apparently, the reason the term 'langer' is common in Cork, is that the term was particularly popular with troops originating from Cork, who were stationed in India. It was originally a reference to the langur monkey's tail, which to the troops, appeared to have a phallic shape. Mushed 17:56, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] That's enough Langers

http://www.corkslang.com/ :

  • A disagreeable person - Derivation: Unknown, but note 'Élang' - a defect, flaw, weak spot. (Joynt and Knott)
  • A penis - Derivation: Unknown, but 'Langur' - a long tailed monkey from India. (Concise Oxford Dictionary) Note influence of the Munster Fusiliers.
  • Drunk - Derivation: Unknown Hakluyt bean 17:38, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "English"

Reading the article I see an awful lot of places where some Hiberno-English feature is set in contrast to "English"; except that the HE feature is shared with some or all dialects of American English. I assume that these were entered by someone who lives in Britain or elsewhere in the Commonwealth, but we should be careful about this sort of thing.

Also, we need to work on citing a whole lot more stuff in here. /blahedo (t) 18:02, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Hot news tense"?

Can somebody confirm that the "hot news tense" and "warm news tense" really exist? Do they have a more correct linguistic name? -- Strib 04:23, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

"hot news perfect" is from McCawley, James D. (1971), "Tense and Time reference in English", written at New York, in Charles J. Fillmore and D. Terence Langendoen, Studies in linguistic semantics, Holt, Rinehart and Winston, 104, ISBN 0030852676:
The present perfect in English has the following uses:
(a) to indicate that a state of affairs prevailed throughout some interval streching from the past into the present (Universal):
(31) I’ve known Max since 1960.
(b) to indicate the existence of past events (Existential):
(32) I have read Principia Mathematica five times.
(c) to indicate that the direct effect of a past event still continues (Stative):
(33) I can’t come to your party tonight - I’ve caught the flu.
(d) to report hot news (Hot news):
(34) Malcom X has just been assassinated.

"Hot news perfect" is a questionable category in general. It is still commonly used, but always in quotes; the term "perfect of recent past" (which is slightly different) is used instead by some. The suggestion the "after doing" in HE is used only for this form of the perfect, not for any others, is even more questionable. "Warm news perfect" looks like something a Wikipedian made up. The point about "hot news" is not the hotness but the newness; it emphasises the past act rather than its present relevance. jnestorius(talk) 16:55, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] a bit racist

i think this is a bit racist, it seems to be full of prejudiced. although some of the stuff is correct, when writing irish english you dont need to write things like 'awk, aye, twil twil twil' and things like that. this should be changed to be more like standard english but without losing the hiberno enlighs aspect —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Daniel625 (talk • contribs) 21:34, 23 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Etymologies

"Knacker Derived from the Gaelic 'eachaire' meaning a horse handler..."

Come on ... English Knacker - horse dealer etc.

The Hiberno-English Archive [1] suggests "n. someone dealing in horses (for excessive profit); pejor. a person involved in shady deals (cf. knack n. a trick, a device); (pejor.) a member of the travelling community; an impotent man < E dial. origin obscure." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.135.197.245 (talk) 10:13, 30 January 2007 (UTC).

knacker (n, vb) A dealer in old horses and other livestock. Scan. It formerly meant a saddler and harness maker. Ice. knakkr (saddle). Now used as a verb in colloquial E to indicate anything spoilt or ruined or tired-out (knackered). from English words which have a Scandinavian Etymology Hakluyt bean 17:44, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hiberno-English

So far as I can tell it's English that has been profoundly influenced by features of the Irish language hiberno-english.com. Quite a lot of what the article contains atm is not really in the category, seems to me. Hakluyt bean 18:04, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

In Irish there is a modh connealach, a conditional tense which doesn't exist in English. In English if you ask someone if they will do something, eg "Will you complete the task", it can only be answered I will or I will not, Irish has "I might" or "I may" as legitimate answers. Then there's the old gag, one yellow line means no parking at all, two yellow lines means no parking at all, at all. Repetition for emphasis is more prevalent in Irish than English, such as many many years ago, far far away, and ordering two pints every round. 83.70.248.72 00:06, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but this is simply wrong. Of course one may answer "I might" or "I may" in response to that question. Where did you learn to speak English? [unsigned]

Sorry, I don't know Gaeilge, what does "I might" mean? A long time ago in a galaxy far far away... More seriously, the answer "I might" is not conditional anything; the auxiliary verb :would ,not the auxiliary verb :might, is called conditional. The use is termed a MOOD not a tense; there is no such tense as conditional. If you have to be wrong, please don't do it on Wikipedia. Froggo Zijgeb 00:45, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Northern Ireland

Presumably Hiberno-English is spoken in Ireland and Northern Ireland? This isn't stated anywhere - the intro should say so. Ben Finn 21:18, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

  • But Northern Ireland is part of Ireland, so it does not need to be stated. [prepares to duck...] Snalwibma 18:26, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Absolutely no need to duck. The above guy was clearly trying to be funny. 86.43.160.67 18:43, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
  • You realise that N.I. is legally, culturally, politically and socially a different country, right? That's like saying Canada is the same country as America because they're both on the same continent...If there's a different accent, currency, prime minister, political system, judicial system, educational system, brand names available, age restrictions, law enforcement procedures, economy and military, I think it's safe to say it's a different country, yeah... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.70.69.112 (talk) 16:44, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Well, then, by that definition I suppose prior to 6 December 1922 the 26 counties was a different "country" to, well, the 26 counties of today. Funny how Dublin, Cork and Galway have not moved though! Dastardly natives! There's only one Ireland, no matter how many times the colonial power decides to divide the country up into different states. The game is up for the British Empire, and the privileges of its remnants across the world. 86.42.84.131 (talk) 07:43, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Irish English?

Should the article be called Irish English instead? That was the most common name in the past, to my knowledge, although I don't claim any academia on the subject. Why Hiberno, it's like going back to Roman times. Come to think of it, the Romans never reigned in Ireland. - Gold_heart 12:11, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

  • This was discussed some time ago - see the archive here. Snalwibma 12:32, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the link. Could Hiberno-English be a neologism, WP:NEO, an if that is case, would there be call for a change in title? -Gold_heart 12:56, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bucklepper

Added; how was this essential HE word missed?!86.42.222.157 14:24, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] To be sure to be sure

What a load of rot. I've never heard this nonsense in Ireland. This article looks like it was edited by someone whose sum total knowledge of language use in Ireland is based on 'The Quiet Man' and 'Far and Away.' Hollywood Irish is not an actual language, you understand. Would someone PLEASE have a go at making this article less silly? To be sure, to be sure - come off it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 140.203.12.243 (talk) 15:15, August 20, 2007 (UTC)

I've heard the majoritiy of the words here, including 'to be sure to be sure' - sometimes films are annoyingly accurate!

Andrewl957 23:21, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

  • I've lived in Dublin my entire life, and I've been to Monaghan and Cavan enough to become familiar with the dialects - never heard anyone say that. I've come across old geezers in pubs that spit onto the ground if you mention England, but never came across one of those stereotypical leprechaun types... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.70.69.112 (talk) 16:53, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This is an encyclopedia, not a linguistics jounrnal

Does anyone actually know the full phonetic alphabet? Do they know what 'alveolar pronunciation' sounds like, or what a monophthong is? Seriously, is the purpose of this entry to inform, or impress the reader? Because either way I am neither informed nor impressed.

Someone needs to either translate this stuff, or go back to whatever it was before. I'd take informal over needlessly complicated anyday... 83.70.69.112 16:46, 25 September 2007 (UTC)Emerald

IPA is the only way to express in text how a language is spoken. The only alternative is to add a bunch of MP3 files. Are you going to do that? If not, the IPA stays. --Red King (talk) 12:39, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Why is technical gibberish allowed in linguistic articles but not elsewhere?

I think that if someone edited the "personal computer" entry into a detailed, jargon-filled description of the layout of various microprocessor circuits, people would object. And yet that is what has happened to this language article. To be fair, though, the changes on this page bring it into line with the other language articles on Wikipedia - it isn't just this article, it is all of them. I do love the ability to really dig into something that readers enjoy here; you simply can't get that from the encyclopedia on your bookshelf. For that reason I hate to whine too much on this subject, since presumably if we got rid of all the jargon, we would be back to the kind of fluff that was this article before the linguistics geek made it unreadable. But I think it is reasonable to question whether this is a real encyclopedia article (as the comments above do). Perhaps the best of both worlds could be achieved if the technical info was left intact, but was made more accessible with more examples and explanations. I want this info to stay in the article - but I want people to understand it (I want to understand it). Presenting it in such a nakedly inaccessible format does not consider the audience and is frankly quite arrogant. Kgdickey (talk) 01:53, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I have just tried to read this article. It is of almost no use to anyone who is not a specialist in linguistics. This is not something just any editor can fix, or I would have tried. It needs an expert who can explain without the jargon. I appreciate that this is likely a difficult task. ៛ Bielle (talk) 01:51, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
What gibberish? If you don't understand what is going on, then go and read the International Phonetic Alphabet article, same as you would for any other topic you don't understand. IPA is the only way to use text to indicate pronunciation. Otherwise we need to record a load of MP3 files. Are you going to do that? --Red King (talk) 12:42, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Definite Article Clarification?

Though I risk the ever-popular Wikipedian accusation of American bias by even asking, could someone possibly see it in their heart to add a sentence to point out what exactly is atypical about the sentence below? Which "the" in this sentence is unusual in British English, and why?

  • She had the flu so he brought her to the hospital.

As one of those ignorant, ethnocentric, and badly dressed 67 percent myself, I guess I've never heard this sentence phrased the correct way. Xezlec (talk) 06:02, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

In English English diseases never take a 'the', and you'd probably say 'She had flu so he took her to hospital' Simon Q (talk) 15:08, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Ditto. In "English" English you would not say "the flu", but in Hiberno-English it is likely that you would. This a carry-over from Gaelic where the definitive article can be used for emphasis e.g. Tá an fliú aicí stresses that "She has the flu" whereas Tá fliú aici ("She has (a) flu") lacks any great emphasis. --sony-youthpléigh 15:47, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Maybe, "she flu to hospital", saves ink. ;~)) 78.19.40.19 (talk) 16:04, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation of letters of the alphabet

The article mentions the letters a,h and z. I would have thought the pronunciation of "r" (rhyming with oar rather than are)is the most noticeably different letter in hiberno-english 81.62.155.49 (talk) 10:24, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Good point. Text changed - though I'm not convinced the paragraph in question is correctly positioned within the article. Snalwibma (talk) 11:01, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Grand

Just noticed that there's no mention of the word grand - probably the single most common hiberno-english word (or hiberno-english usage of a word anyway) Any mention of it would probably need to point out the differences in real usage and that of Oirish characters in certain (mostly American, but even the odd British) films!81.62.169.112 (talk) 20:49, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 'Isn't it well for you'

Just googled this as a fella said it to me and all the results that came up were Irish. It's cute. 86.42.102.87 (talk) 00:02, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 'You and whose army?'

Where did this come from? It's a great one. In school in the 1980s it was all the rage as a generic response to 'I'll kick the living shite out of you' and other fine sentiments such as 'I'd hammer ten shades of shite out of you'. I remember one incredibly annoying spiky-haired little fella, who was really tiny, used to say that to everybody who rose to his annoyance and then run with a big smile on him before they got him in a headlock and did the aforementioned. 86.42.102.87 (talk) 00:02, 18 April 2008

also prevalent during my childhood (1950's and 60's) in the predominantly celtic ottawa valley.Toyokuni3 (talk) 16:02, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Scope of the article

Another editor has queried my deletion of some terms which did not fit this statement in the article: "However, some unique characteristics exist, especially in the spoken language, owing to the influence of the Irish language on the pronunciation of English." (my emphasis) Let me reiterate my position; unless a term is uniquely used in this dialect it does not belong here. Unless its unique usage can be verifiably demonstrated using reliable sources, it does not belong here. It doesn't seem difficult or controversial to me, but there you go. This would be a better place to discuss the matter than on my talk page I think. --John (talk) 18:37, 2 June 2008 (UTC)