Talk:Helvetica

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The Helvetica sample is inconsistent with other font samples on Wikipedia. Brianjd 05:40, 2004 Nov 13 (UTC)

What? The image? Feel free to change it. Chameleon 14:08, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Indeed, I created that sample half a year before the other font samples began to appear on Wikipedia. Go ahead and replace it, Brianjd. --Andy M. 19:30, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Arial not based on Helvetica?

The article sez:

The typeface Arial, distributed with Microsoft Windows, has the same widths as Helvetica but its design is not based on it.

And I laughed so hard, coffee came out of my nose. Saying that Arial isn't based on Helvetica is like saying the Geo Prism isn't based on the Toyota Corrolla. Kindly fix that, or I will when I get around to it.

best,

HW

This article stood for a couple years saying that Arial was based on Helvetica. I'm not sure why we're so hesitant to change it back. I won't say Be Bold, though. --Andy M. 04:07, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
For a nice comparison see www.ms-studio.com/articlesarialsid.html Arial is really almost Helvetica, just a little (experts will probably consider this understatement) uglier. See also the difference image at praegnanz.de/weblog/125 (Article in German). --Markus Krötzsch 19:47, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Even better: www.ms-studio.com/articles.html. From the article: "Arial, however, has a rather dubious history and not much character. In fact, Arial is little more than a shameless impostor." But also: "Arial appears to be a loose adaptation of Monotype's venerable Grotesque series, redrawn to match the proportions and weight of Helvetica. At a glance, it looks like Helvetica, but up close it's different in dozens of seemingly arbitrary ways." I will add the links to the article, but someone else should take time for incorporating this information. --Markus Krötzsch 19:54, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Helvetica vs. Arial: Capital G

Another easy character to distinguish Helvetica and Arial is the capital G; in Helvetica it has a 'tail', while in Arial it doesn't.

For those of you who have all the fonts in question on your computer, the letters below should illustrate the point. They are shown here using the html font tag, with the appropriate faces, and in size +2.

Helvetica:
A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z

Arial:
A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z

Swiss 721 BT:
A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z

Akzidenz Grotesk:
A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z

Wulf 03:18, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Could you post PNGs of the images as not all of us have the fonts installed? Ta 213.253.35.7 12:59, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More expansion needed

I've tried to add some stuff, but the article needs to be expanded a lot more. And better sorted. It seems like much of it is devoted to comparison with Arial, but there should be more about what identifies Helvetica itself, in contrast with other san-serif typefaces, both before and after Helvetica was released.

Also something about its historic and cultural role. Some photos of vintage Helvetica designs would be nice.

One more thing which should be emphasized is the diversity of this typeface family. From the lights and thins to the blacks, extended to condensed and compressed, etc. And some of the letter shapes look quite different in these different weights - eg. the compressed "S" has a very different shape from the regular "S" (quit different from if you take a regular Helvetica "S" and asymetrically scale it down).

So yeah - all this and more should be discussed in the article.

[edit] Oo-la-la!

I love Paris as much as the next, but please explain the reason for this illustration, other than to demonstrate how tortured digital condensing looks when not used in a non-multiple masters typeface? A better illustration might be various condensed versions of Helvetica Condensed (pre Neue Helvetica) to demonstrate just how much variety the face has, especially in comparison to Univers. I've deleted the Helvetica specimen I designed as the infobox has been restored. CApitol3 13:04, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Quick comparison.

I've added an image comparing the most noteworthy letter comparisons between the two typefaces, as well as a quick note about the differences. Feel free to expand.

[edit] Helvetica included in Windows?

Hi, I was recently reading this article and I noticed it said that Helvetica is included in Microsoft Windows. I got a new computer with Windows XP Media Center Edition and I was disappointed to see that Helvetica wasn't included anymore. I don't know if this is true for all users, or just my Dell computer. Anyway, thanks for the great articles as always! 71.214.225.2 02:26, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I will correct that. AFAIK only Adobe Acrobat had Helvetica with it at a certain moment. As Microsoft ships Arial since a long time together with Windows, there is only few chance they would ship Helvetica as well (if they had licensed it ;-)). Doesn't make sense. Maddin42 16:32, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Priorities out of whack

This article seems to be less about Helvetica and more about Arial, which really only deserves to be mentioned in passing; everything about Arial ought to be moved to the article on that font, as there are much more important things to say about Helvetica than that. Also, the "Usage" section is asinine. The font is far too ubiquitous to mention, for example, that it was used in "the video game logos of Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty and Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater". A partial list of huge companies using Helvetica as an identity font would probably be fine, along with a link to Helvetica: Homage to a Typeface. 209.94.128.90 13:52, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I think two sentences does qualify as a passing mention. Recury 14:03, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Helvetica usage

The uses are so numerous, across so many languages any attempt at a list becomes longer than the information about the typeface deisgna nd history. Also several of the users cited no longer use Helvetica. Amtrack once used Helvetica but their current logo (the one you have shown) no longer uses Helvetica. Note the splayed uppercase M which Helvetica does not have. Evian too once used Helvetica but no longer does, the logo shown uses Antique Olive not Helvetica. Olympus' logo is not Helevetica either. All of the logos placed in the article are copyrighted and use in an article other than one they are the subject is a violation of fair use. CApitol3 16:50, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the Neville Brody quotation as it seems completely arbitrary. Why not the countless other quotes from other people who've used the font? Why Neville Brody? Seems out of place in an encyclopedia article.

It's just an example of what people think about it. It basically serves the same purpose as a section on what literary critics have said about a novel. Recury 21:40, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Toronto Star reference

The Toronto Star article has errors in it. Amtrack does not use Helvetica in its identity, neither does Evian. The Olympus logo is not a typeface itself but custom drawn for that application. Lars Müller's Helvetica: homage to a typeface is a great source of who uses it, and who does not.CApitol3 17:00, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Joseph Goebbels

There's a rumour going around the SciFi community, in connection with the fonts used in George Lucas's Star Wars, alleging that Miedinger based his Helvetica on a font by Joseph Goebbels supposedly called Helvetika. Personally I think it's a bunch of bull, but it should be investigated and addressed in the article.
You can easily find the story on the web, here for example --BjKa 10:48, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I read that story and came here to find out more, was disappointed to find no yae or nae on the matter. I do recall that the Germans banned blackletter sometime during WWII and had to create a bunch of "modern" fonts, but I don't know if Helvetica originated then or not. 24.8.231.58 (talk) 18:08, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hoffmann

The URW website lists Hoffmann's first name as Alfred.

"Monotype Helvetica™

Helvetica was designed by Alfred Hoffmann with Max Miedinger in 1957 for the Haas typefoundry of Basel, Switzerland. Helvetica was formerly called Neue Haas Grotesk. Helvetica is inspired by the best nineteenth-century style. The “a” of the Helvetica font has a curved spur and the tail of the “Q” is oblique. The Helvetica font family competed with Univers for international acclaim, as both sans serif faces were issued at almost the same time. Its rational design is suitable for a wide variety of jobs."

216.59.245.189 15:58, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] From memory

The first proportional typefaces I came across (for mini computers but before IBM PC) were "Swiss" and "Roman" I've always assumed that these were copies of Helvetica and Times Roman, assuming Apple held the rights to the genuine versions for electronic use. Canon and Hewlett Packard later made an agreement with Monotype for their new laser printer (LBP-A1 and A2) to supply optional plug in cartridges with either Times New Roman or Arial. These were adopted by Microsoft for Windows. Hence web writers had to code for either Arial or Helvetica to cater for users accessing their pages with PC's or Aplles. Chevin 12:38, 3 November 2007 (UTC)