User talk:Hecht

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[edit] Barry Chamish

Barry Chamish is not a Nazi and neither is Jeff Rense. Go and read Shabtai Tzvi, Labour Zionism and the Holocaust, and stop protesting too much. --Hereward77 (talk) 18:03, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say Chamish was a Nazi. Rense is a publisher of Holocaust denial material. Your deletion of Pipes' criticism has no justification. He is a notable source. Hecht (talk) 06:19, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Rense is not a Holocaust denier, and is certainly no Nazi. The books sold on Rense.com cover Bible prophecy and the paranormal, not the likes of Irving, etc. From his website: "Neither Jeff Rense nor sightings.com necessarily adhere to, or endorse, any or all of the links, stories, articles, editorials, or products offered by sponsors found on this site, or broadcast on the Jeff Rense radio program. All of the materials and data offered on this site, and on the radio program, are for informational and educational purposes only." Although Rense is rather naive in carrying a few questionable articles on his site,[1] Pipes has no evidence for these claims, so I will have to point this out in the article. --Hereward77 (talk) 17:18, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Pipes says (a) that Rense is a neo-Nazi; (b) that Chamish links to Holocaust deniers; (c) that Chamish spoke at a Holocaust denial event. Regarding (a) you say that Rense isn't a Holocaust denier; he just publishes material denying the Holocaust. IMHO that's a distinction without a difference. Regarding (b) and (c) you haven't raised any objection. If you have evidence that his allegations are false, then please add it to the entry. Hecht (talk) 19:26, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WP:EL

Is my objection to those sites. Nizkor might make it through - I have used it on occasion, although there has been some trenchant academic criticism of it, but its definitely a major force in refuting denialists' arguments - but Bogdanor is definitely not an option. "Left-wingers for another holocaust" is not an acceptable encyclopaedic external link. Relata refero (talk) 10:50, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Wasn't aware of academic criticism of Nizkor - is it online?
The other link was PB's list of articles by other people. PB didn't write any of the articles in that list; and I can't find anything there about "left-wingers for another holocaust." PB has an article Leftists For a Second Holocaust elsewhere on the site but I didn't link to that.
Hecht (talk) 02:06, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
I'll try and find the discussion of Nizkor - I can't even remember where I heard it, though I use it all the time. (I suppose it should stay, given that I do use it all the time.)
I'm not sure that other link is mainstream enough. It has an article by Michelle Malkin, for heavens sake! A couple of Robert Conquests referenced elsewhere don't make up for that. And a lot of the issues there are frankly dubious - North Vietnamese Land Reform Genocide Denial? Relata refero (talk) 10:08, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Nizkor: Thanks.

LWD: Disliking one of the authors listed hardly justifies removing the whole page. In any case, Michelle Malkin's item is one of two on Ramsey Clark; the other is by a journalist from The Nation writing on Salon.com! I don't see the words "North Vietnamese Land Reform Genocide Denial," only a section on "Land Reform Apologists" with articles by prominent authors on the subject.

Hecht (talk) 14:21, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

The point being that he implies "apologists" for land reform in Vietnam are on par with the sort of denialists discussed in the article, and I don't think that's a mainstream view at all. Relata refero (talk) 07:55, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Doesn't matter what either of us thinks. The articles are by prominent authors and experts.

Hecht (talk) 18:50, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

They aren't, not all of them; and the point is that they have been assembled to claim that all the articles are about negationism, when that is patently not the case according to the experts. Relata refero (talk) 11:47, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Which experts? Hecht (talk) 15:23, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

The 'prominent authors and experts' who comprise a proportion of those in the external link. Several of their articles on various subjects have been organised by a non-RS source as about 'negationism' whether or not that is what the articles themselves claim to be about. Relata refero (talk) 19:07, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Glancing through the Vietnam land reform articles, they do claim to be about denials of bloodbaths. Hecht (talk) 20:24, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

But about systematic campaigns and political movements to rewrite history of the sort the article discusses? Do the authors imply as much? Compare it to Holocaust denial for a moment, and you'll see why its not so. Relata refero (talk) 20:33, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Some of those articles were used in Congressional hearings on the issue, which means it was judged pretty important. Hecht (talk) 20:53, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Which ones?
In any case, only a small fraction of them, right? Which is why I feel that it seems that that is a dangerous EL, as it over-extends the scope of the term...
I see you dropped by Talk:Holodomor. Please do consider getting involved in discussion there. Relata refero (talk) 23:04, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
These [2] [3] were used in Congressional hearings on "The Myth of No Bloodbath" in North Vietnam (Hearings of the Subcommittee on Internal Security, Senate Judiciary Committee, January 5, 1973). See original here [4] [5]. That's 2 out of 4 articles under the heading Land Reform Apologists. The others are a paper from the Rand Corporation, and the Bulletin of Concerned Asian Scholars essay that started it all.
Thanks for invitation. It seems we have exactly the same interests and exactly the opposite opinions :-)
Hecht (talk) 13:06, 2 April 2008 (UTC)