Talk:Havelock Vetinari
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[edit] The vampire Lady Margolotta
It was my understanding that she taught *him* much of what he knows. She appears as his tutor in Night Watch.
Also - should Leonard deQuirm get a mention here? Lostsocks 23:33, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- Um, no, it's his aunt Lady Roberta Meserole who's in Night Watch, not Margolotta. Also, in Fifth Elephant, Margolotta laughs out loud at Vimes' suggestion that she taught him. As for Leonard ... well, no reason why he shouldn't get some mention here, perhaps linking to his own article ... --Yar Kramer 17:05, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Vetinari's dislike for mimes linked with Folls' Guild spying?
removed from #Appearance, habits and miscellaneous:
- It has been suggested that this is due to the mimes being part of a vast spy network organised by the Fool's Guild.
Where was this suggested? I don't remember anything like this in any of the books. —No-One Jones (m) 02:23, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Searching both the web and USENET archives, I've seen lots of speculation, but nothing like the removed sentence. So far as I can tell, nothing in either the books, nor in any of Terry's interviews, explain this quirk of the Partician. -- Khym Chanur 04:21, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)
- From The Art of Discworld, under "The House of Mirth":
"...Many trained clowns go on to be Fools in the houses of the mighty, thus giving the Guild Council a spy at every court. No wonder the Guild is rich. But it didn't get there by laughing. Lord Vetinari, an easy-going man by the standards of tyranny, has mime artists hunted down and locked up. There's a man who knows something."
Also from The New Discworld Companion, under "Fools' Guild", an excerpt originally from the Guild's Diary:
"We must make it CLEAR that the Guild's vast wealth accrues from PROWESS WITH THE CUSTARD PIE, CAREFUL CONTROL OVER EXPENDITURE and other Foolish activities. Dr Whiteface is no more than a hard-working administrator, and certainly NOT the cruel and devious international manipulator that UNSUBSTANTIATED RUMOUR makes him to be. Anyone suggesting otherwise can expect a visit from the Jolly Good Pals (The Bloody Fools) in VERY SHORT ORDER."
While these seem to comfirm the truth of the removed sentence, they don't explain why Vetinari is against mime artists only and not Fools in general. I am not sure whether the removed sentence should be restored, but the above quotes seem to be in its favour. Sinistro 21:56, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- Having read some stuff about Scientology recently, this extract strikes me as a pretty good parody of some of the more bizarre leaked memos that L. Ron Hubbard sent to his cronies (the "Sea Org"). --81.135.155.55 23:36, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Vetinari has little to fear from spies. In fact, he'd be the kind to love having spies in his home, so he can lead them to deliver whatever information he likes. The Fools' Guild sure has a wide spy network, as several other quotes imply, but that excerpt from Art of Discworld is to my knowledge the only instance where this is linked with Vetinari's dislike for mimes. That dislike has been referred to as a quirk several times ("an excusable peccadillo or possibly an amusing character trait."), so I think the mime's being part of a large spy network is true, but has little impact on Vetinari's behavior here. Jules LT 20:26, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Vetinari's popularity
"While he is quite as unpopular as his predecessors..." Is this really true? many of his predecessors suffered from insanity and one caused a revolution to break out. Vetinari on the other hand seems to have a mixture of respect and fear from his citizens. Sam 20:21, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
- My interpretation of the books, especially The Truth, would be that Vetinari is highly unpopular (see the opinions of Lord Eorle, etc., in Men at Arms), but his rule survives because of its stabilising effect, and because of the lack of consensus on what should replace him. Put simply, all the powerful players in the city (the Guilds, aristocracy, etc) hate him, but they hate and mistrust each other even more. Another way of looking at it would be Vimes' view in Men at Arms: He doesn't sit on a throne or tell you it's right that he should rule...I hate the b*stard. But he's honest. Fundamentally, Vimes alternately fears and despises Vetinari, but simultaneously prefers his rule to that of men like Lord Rust, who are anathema to everything Vimes believes in. I suppose what I am trying to say is that Vetinari is unpopular, but his gift comes in not being quite as unpopular as most of his potential competitors. A Machiavellian instinct for power also helps (compared to the mindless sadism of Lord Winder and Lord Snapcase, as depicted vividly in Night Watch). Walton monarchist89 11:34, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Changes and additions- Please comment
I was thinking of some changes and wanted to check with the community.
I thought it would be a good addtion to change the following:
- Strangely enough, Vetinari has no lust for power. The sole reason for his ruling the city is that he is fiercely loyal to it. He also has no exploitable vices, barring his intense dislike of mime to the extent of outlawing all practice of it within the city walls, as well as, in some of the earliest novels, a strange fondness for candied jellyfish.
to
- Vetinari has no apparent exploitable vices, barring a a strange fondness for candied jellyfish present in some of the earliest novels. He has no lust for power. The sole reason for his ruling the city is that he is fiercely loyal to it. This is, to some extent, evidenced through his actions in Night Watch.
- He has an intense dislike of mime to the extent of outlawing all practice of it within the city walls. Those caught practicing mime are encouraged to change carriers through an opportunity to study a sign stating LEARN THE WORDS, which is hung upside down in a scorpion pit.
I also thought that it would be good to add something about how Anhk-Morpork is "One Man. One Vote." Vetinari being the man and having the vote, but I don't know where this should go.Slavlin 06:56, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Career
Perhaps some mention should be made of Ventinari's career as an assassin? He assassinated Lord Winder (well, he was present as an assassin and Winder died...) studied languages in lieu of weapons and fighting, and apparently got very high scores. I also recall a line in some book about it being rumored that he never killed anyone, but I can't find it ATM.
- He kills people in Night Watch - most significantly an Unmentionable sniper who was planning on shooting Vimes during the night of the riot at the Dolly Sisters Watch House. --Junior612 00:30, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Picture?
Does anyone know if we could perhaps get a scan of one of Paul Kidby's pics of Vetinari? I am not up on "Fair Use" but as Terry seems to approve of the pictures, surely they are accurate enough. Wookmuff who is too lazy to log in
Hear Hear, i totally agree with this guy! WookMuff 00:26, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Jokes from the books?
I've noticed that a few jokes from the Discworld books have made their way into this article. I don't think any of them are really necessary, and they probably detract slightly from the books themselves. Let me cite one example: "Vetinari banned all mime performances from Ankh-Morpork shortly after taking power. Mimes who violate the ban generally find themselves trying to climb invisible ladders out of Vetinari's scorpion pit whilst reading a sign saying 'learn the words.'" -Larabar 01:07, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
- I see your point ... I felt a similar sensation reading direct-quotes in the Discworld Companion. —Yar Kramer 01:16, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
- I disagree. I think that this is an important character trait in Vetinari, similar to previous Patricians' paranoia and being barking mad.WookMuff 01:32, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
- Ah — I mistook his earlier comment, and I was referring to direct quotes (i.e. "[the Auditors] weren't life forms. They were ... non-life forms" from the Companion). Could you give us other examples, Larabar? —Yar Kramer 03:14, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
- I'm not referring to direct-quotes. Apologies for the confusion. It's merely that the last bit of my aforementioned quote is pretty obviously taken from the book. Perhaps not a direct-quote, but content from the quote that made it amusing in its original context. This is what I feel detracts from the books themselves. While the fact that Vetinari hates mimes and sentences them to death is an important trait in his character, referring to the sign and the invisible ladders is unnecessary to make the point. -Larabar 03:50, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
- Again, I disagree. I think it shows the mindset of Vetinari. For someone able to think in knots, he can also be incredibly straight forward. WookMuff 04:13, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
- I'm not referring to direct-quotes. Apologies for the confusion. It's merely that the last bit of my aforementioned quote is pretty obviously taken from the book. Perhaps not a direct-quote, but content from the quote that made it amusing in its original context. This is what I feel detracts from the books themselves. While the fact that Vetinari hates mimes and sentences them to death is an important trait in his character, referring to the sign and the invisible ladders is unnecessary to make the point. -Larabar 03:50, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
- Ah — I mistook his earlier comment, and I was referring to direct quotes (i.e. "[the Auditors] weren't life forms. They were ... non-life forms" from the Companion). Could you give us other examples, Larabar? —Yar Kramer 03:14, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
- I disagree. I think that this is an important character trait in Vetinari, similar to previous Patricians' paranoia and being barking mad.WookMuff 01:32, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Age?
The article states that Vetinari is currently in his fifties, yet in Night Watch, which takes place 30 years before the other novels, he is picked on by the Assassin's Guild prefects, which would suggest that he is younger than they (18), or at most the same age. He would, then, be no more than 48 years old in the "present" Discworld. Varlet16 06:49, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
- Well, Pratchett has been known to rewrite continuity, but I suppose the most recent books should be considered the most canon (I'm having flashbacks to debating Star Wars). Unless someone can point something out in Thud or one of the Tiffany Aching books, it should probably be changed to simply his "forties." -- Raveled 12:25, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] "benevolent dictator?"
I'm uncomfortable with this term. I don't believe there is such a thing. It seems to me that "benevolent" isn't really a good term for Vetinari anyway; "rational" might be closer to the mark. He treats lust for power in the same way that Victor Tugelbend treats laziness or that Epicurus treated pleasure: control it in the present to satisfy it over the long term. Serendipodous 12:53, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- I disagree wholeheartedly. He is a patriot, to a certain degree, and displays no lust for power at all. Why do you disagree with the concept of a benevolent dictator? If gross human nature cannot be overcome in fiction, where CAN it be overcome? WookMuff 13:05, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
well hes a better one than the previous ones have been, so in contrast he would be a benevolent dictator, though he is more of the rational type, but its more of a deception, and that is what hes best at. Kael-Thas
Is it just me or why do I always - when reading about Vetinaris skill in politics - see V. Putin befor my inner eye. (If this is an inappropriate place to post this question, sorry). mewhoistoolazytocreateanaccountforonly1commentadecade 19 Feb. 2007
[edit] The Early Years
(suggested as the result of his use of camouflage rather than the Assassin's highly traditional and innefective black clothing)
Dosent it state that he follows all the rules? Including wearing black and the resson nobody sees him is the old it's imposibul so it dosen't register... or indeed that it's mearly that the petricion is suronuded by "wite dots" and therefor is mearly a case of; "What me guvener. Naa I ain't seen nuhing"
- Night Watch specifically includes a scene or two with Vetinari changing out of a more useful dark grey outfit into Guild mandated black clothing. It's made clear in the novel that Vetinari breaks the rules when he feels that doing so will save his life. But he's very careful not to get caught. --Junior612 00:32, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
- The second bit you're talking about -- you mean the assassination of Winder? Ventinari specifically dressed as the stereotypical assassin for maximum effect. His aunt had already arranged matters so no one would actually react to his presence except the guards, and he disabled them early. -- Raveled 03:17, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] First appearance
In the infobox, Vetinari's first appearance is presently given as The Colour of Magic. I haven't read it for years, but I do remember noticing when I did that the (unnamed) Patrician is described as fat during his meeting with Rincewind. As Vetinari has seemingly never been fat, doesn't this mean that the Patrician at the time of TCoM is one of Vetinari's predecessors? 195.137.79.247 16:14, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, in the original novel it clearly wasn't Vetinari as he was fat and gorged himself on jellied starfish during a meeting - but it's since been ret-conned by explicitly featuring Vetinari in the graphic novel and the telemovie. Personally, I'd say Mort should be his first appearance. 210.1.205.201 (talk) 07:59, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Camoflauge
I was under the impression that the Assassin's Guild were very much in favor of camoflauge; it's just that (compared to the more clever, such as Vetinari) they aren't very good at it. Lots42 03:12, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
I think it's more that the conduct of members of the Assassin's Guild has become so formalised over the years that following rule and tradition is actually considered more important than success. Assassins wear black because they've always worn black, and because people expect them to wear black. They could achieve greater success by behaving like ninjas, but it wouldn't be gentlemanly.Denorios 14:06, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
