Talk:Hassan-i Sabbah

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Contents

[edit] Training of the Assassins

I've read in several places (among them, Wikipedia itself) that the Hashish story was a myth, invented by Marco Polo. Can anyone doublecheck? --Anon.

Well Maulvi Abdul Haleem Sharar, 18 century Urdu fiction writer has called them this in his "Firdaus-e-BarreeN" and I doubt he had read or been influenced by Marco Polo. In any case the followers of Ibn Saba believed that the Shariah was not for "True Lover of Allah" like he and his followers and they they drank wine and smoked hashish and shared women. They were generally a licentious group, except that "The Old man of the mountain" had to be followed in all matters. Followers of Agha Khan are known for drinking, even today.

--HussaynKhariq 20:40, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Well, as you say - Maulvi Abdul Haleem Sharar was a "fiction" writer, so all these myths about the paradisal garden and hashish smoking is fiction too! As for Ibn Sabah, it is said that he killed his own son for drinking wine, therefore, this is probably more in line with his stance on alcohol. In addition, these myths were all written and solicited by Christian and Sunni Muslim enemies and oppressors of the Nizari Ismailis, therefore, it should be understood that no original Nizari Ismaili literature (that which has survived) supports these allegations. Finally, I am a follower of the Aga Khan, and I do NOT drink alcohol nor partake in drugs/cigarettes as per my belief in Islam. - [User:Karim Hassan/New York - 10 May 2006]
Sorry, it is not possible to just "doublecheck" because AFAIK no one today knows the truth.
  • If this story of hashish and secret pleasure garden imitating Paradise was true, you can expect that it was kept secret, otherwise the whole device would lose its effectiveness. Furthermore, Alamut and its library was thoroughly destroyed by the Mongols. so very difficult to get hard evidence.
  • it is quite possible that hashish, opium, or alcohol was used as part of an elaborate mental conditioning . On the other hand, the recent history of terrorism shows us that you don't need to be drugged to commit suicide attacks.
  • based on the known dates, it is not clear if Marco Polo was able to visit Alamut before its destruction.
furthermore, according to the online book I linked on the related article page, it is only after a religious revolution* in Alamut that occured 2 generations after Hassan's death that alcohol was allowed.

--TahitiB 21:28, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

this was the proclamation of the "Millennium"
I guess you are referring to what took place when Hasan II came to power on Muhammed's death in 1162 there? --Rhwawn (talk to Rhwawn) 03:14, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

The Marco Polo story of the garden is of course a legend with no basis in reality. The Wiki article really needs to be totally rewritten but I don't have time to do this at present so I've just modified it a bit to correct the more egregious errors. Anyone interested in the subject: please see my online book The Assassins of Alamut. Acampbell70 12:54, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

To be honest, I would tend to agree with you, but not for the reasons outlined in your work (that is, incredulity), but because the climate of Alamut just doesn't seem to allow for such a garden and there's no obvious location for it. Plus, it just doesn't seem like Sabah to me. --Rhwawn (talk to Rhwawn) 03:14, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
The use of Hasish, Gardens, and women are considered polemic by the vast majority of modern scholors, along with texts which claimed Isma'ili kidnapp children and sacricfice them in rituals. I am happy to quote several sources. Therefore I would like to re-title this section under a new title refering to them as myths. Are there any objections?--86.146.0.135 00:20, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


Regarding HasanII, Isma'ili have a different take on his leadership, as an Isma'ili I would like to add our persective on him, to contrast the other side and maintain POV. However I think references to Hasan II, to be short since this article deals with Hassan I sabbah, any objections?--86.146.0.135 00:20, 31 July 2007 (UTC)



[edit] Polo's original text, FYI

In the interests of helping out in this conversation, what follows is what Polo said, courtesy of Project Gutenberg. --Rhwawn (talk to Rhwawn) 03:14, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

"HOW THE OLD MAN USED TO TRAIN HIS ASSASSINS."


"When therefore they awoke, and found themselves in a place so charming, they deemed that it was Paradise in very truth. And the ladies and damsels dallied with them to their hearts' content, so that they had what young men would have; and with their own good will they never would have quitted the place."
"Now this Prince whom we call the Old One kept his Court in grand and noble style, and made those simple hill-folks about him believe firmly that he was a great Prophet. And when he wanted one of his _Ashishin_ to send on any mission, he would cause that potion whereof I spoke to be given to one of the youths in the garden, and then had him carried into his Palace. So when the young man awoke, he found himself in the Castle, and no longer in that Paradise; whereat he was not over well pleased. He was then conducted to the Old Man's presence, and bowed before him with great veneration as believing himself to be in the presence of a true Prophet. The Prince would then ask whence he came, and he would reply that he came from Paradise! and that it was exactly such as Mahommet had described it in the Law. This of course gave the others who stood by, and who had not been admitted, the greatest desire to enter therein."[1]

[edit] Nihilism

Is there any evidence that Hassan-i Sabah ever said "Nothing is true; everything is permitted", or is that just something Burroughs made up? --Anon.

Interestingly, yes, but the source is so hideously biased that there's no point in arguing about it.
Specifically, we can thank the Sunni historian Juvaini who records a great deal about Hasan (and the Assassins in general, of course), from his perspective as Hulagu Khan's pet historian who was allowed to talk to prisoners and catalogue (for destruction) Alamut's library.
Presumably he knew what he was talking about, but unfortunately he was Sunni and so a wee bit biased (for example, if Enno Franzius's "History of the Order of Assassins" which I'm currently using while I track down an English translation of Juvaini's work is accurate, Juvaini suffixed the obituary of each Assassin leader with a mention of how they were writhing in Hell). --Rhwawn (talk to Rhwawn) 03:14, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Interesting of you to say 'Sunni', especially since Hulagu killed and massacred tens of thousands of innocen Sunni women and children, Hulagu had Persian Shi'a advisors, who gladly told him not to worry about massacring the civilians in Baghdad and that the world will not end if the incompetent Abbassid ruler was killed...get your history right, please. Hulagu's advisors and 'pet historians' were Shi'a not Sunni. 195.229.241.181

Isn't the phrase 'Nothing is true; everything is permitted' one used by Aleister Crowley's Thelema movement? ThePeg 17:53, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I think that phrase is most popular amongst persons like Peter Lamborn Wilson or Robert Anton Wilson. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Thelemic motto was "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.", was it not? --Gwern (contribs) 20:18 24 January 2007 (GMT)

[edit] Section ordering

I am a little concerned about the fact that the "Life and Work" and "Ismaili Perspective" sections are separate from one another. By doing so, instead of creating a neutral point of view about Hassan-i-Sabbah, one instead creates two opposing and drastically different views about the subject. Furthermore, the "Ismaili Perspective" appears to be discredited by the the fact that that it is under a separate section from the "Life and Work", which makes it seems that the first section is correct and the Ismaili section is not. I know that this was not the objective, but that is just how it comes across. Perhaps something should be done to merge the two articles. Suggestions are welcome. --R.suleman 02:49, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely - the 'Hashish' story is a myth. The most authoritative work on the 'Assassins' is by Dr. Farhad Daftary - The Assassin Legends: Myths of the Isma‘ilis, London: I. B. Tauris, 1994; reprinted 2001.. This is the best work, as it references the greatest number of primary sources. The largest collection of manuscripts regarding the Ismailis can be found at the Institute of Ismaili Studies in London [2] where Daftary is a director. They have a short paper on the book on their web-site which is well worth reading (and should be a reference to whomever is going to re-do this article) [3]. -- anonymous 28 March 2006

A very good point. I was mystified by the tone of this article. The first half of this article seems to be an almost adoring portrait of what seems like an impressive man dedicated to a search for spiritual truth and honour (if a little harsh and austere here and there!). The second suggests he and his followers were just ruthless killers. Very disorientating. ThePeg 17:55, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Assassins

This whole section seems dramatized and possibly plagarized. Also it contradicts other parts of the page when it says that they smoked Hashish. I would recommend getting rid of that section all together but someone may want to salvage it.--216.162.88.226 17:33, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

At the very least it is redundant with some parts. I'll trim it sometime soon. --SparqMan 23:15, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling consistency

The name "Hassan" is spelled in (at least) three different ways (Hassan, Hasan, Hæsæn), for no apparent reason (at least to me). Is that deliberate/proper?

[Might I suggest that one spelling be selected and the others, if at all valid, be mentioned in parentheses probably before the persian).]

-- 213.84.38.42 06:59, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] General Messiness Concerns

With all due respect (and there is plenty, given the length of this article), this article is biased and its references are properly unmade. I have done a tiny part in correcting this; I may due further work on this article, or I may not. Take upon thine-on-self. Jpipkin42000 10:29, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Title

The title for this article seems to be incorrect (although with the complete lack of reference, it's not the only thing wrong with it!) "Hassan-i-Sabah" makes it sound like it's one-word. But from the Persian, I can only assume that the correct spelling should be Hassen-i Sabbah, or Hassan-e Sabbah.

Google search:

So my assumptions seem to be correct that at the moment, the title needs changing, I propose that it should be changed to "Hassan Sabbah" or "Hassan-i Sabbah" --Rayis 23:54, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citations?

Where are all the citations for the bold statements about Hassan-I Sabbah? There are, as mentioned, many contradictory statements in this article, none of which seem to be supported by any references that I can see. If the use of hashish by his followers is controversial or untrue, it would help to put it in a separate section under "legends concerning Hassan-I Sabbah" or something similar, and please, cite the information allowing one to say that these are just legends. The fact that similar statements regarding the man are made in different sections, but with different editorial spins on them, only helps to confound the reader. Hassan-I Sabbah is an interesting character; it would be nice to see an entry here that actually can help shed some light on him without these problems obscuring the entry to no end.

[edit] The "Hassan in popular culture" section has become trivial and ridiculous

I'm going to be bold and dramatically trim the trivia section. I don't think we need to list every instance in which the name "Hassan-i Sabbah" is used in popular literature, movies, games, etc.... A book which names a character "Hassan-i Sabbah", but represents him in a historically inaccurate manner is not describing the Hassan-i Sabbah of this article, and thus it does not belong here. The same goes for video games. Basically, this section is just junking up the article and is very unencyclopedic. Per WP:TRIVIA, please feel free to re-add the information if it can be incorporated in the main body of the text. AlphaEta 04:28, 25 November 2007 (UTC)