Talk:Hand grenade

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[edit] Napoleonic Wars

In the "History" section, I find it odd that it skips from "ineffective" grenades in the English Civil War to the American Civil War two centuries later; in between, grenades were obviously used and improved as well. Reading through Tolstoy's War and Peace, I find that grenades are often mentionned; not only that, but, obviously, there are soldiers reffered to as "grenadiers". So it seems to me that, perhaps, there would be something worth mentionning with regards to eighteenth and early nineteenth century usage as well, no?70.81.243.107 13:10, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dirty tricks

I removed the Dirty tricks section, seen below. I don't see the point of having this section. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think Wikipedia needs to be in the business of providing how-to's on explosive booby-traps. -Rholton (aka Anthropos) 04:01, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Well-prepared soldiers carry a roll of duct tape to repair equipment. With practice with dummy grenades, it is fairly easy to learn to construct simple booby traps from duct tape and a grenade.

Such an example of a booby trap is to trap a door frame. Place the grenade about half an arm-length above one's head (most people do not look up; they watch their feet or their hands). When the door is opened, the booby trap should release the grenade's handle. The grenade should stay in place up high, so that it cannot be kicked away.

Booby traps are also used on vehicle gas tanks, and in doing so, are triggered when the vehicle drives away.

I disagree. Anybody with a grenade will not need Wikipedia, while many of those researching grenades may be doing so for purposes of writing literature, fiction, etc where this is useful information. I vote for it being kept, but perhaps leading to an off-site reference rather than going into too many details. --82.35.147.90 10:47, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I dunno. I do see your point, but on the other hand, most people doing this won't be looking it up in Wikipedia, most people who read it in Wikipedia won't want to run out and try it, and very few will probably be able to because you can't exactly just walk down to the store and buy a grenade -- in regions you can, I wouldn't exactly consider myself safe! --Furrykef 08:43, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Move

In addition, perhaps this should be moved to "hand grenade"? It only discusses grenades operated by the hand, but what about grenade launchers and rocket propelled grenades? Clearly these are not hand grenades if not operated by the hand, but many of the principles apply. (I'll correct the article's incorrect implicit assertion that all grenades are hand-operated now.) --Furrykef 08:48, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

Since no one opposed User:Furrykef, I moved the article. This article doesn't mention anything about any other grenades than those that are thrown. I fixed almost all double-redirects but those that actually need to link to "grenade" instead of "hand grenade". I could also fix other articles that link to grenade when they actually mean hand grenades. We need a separate grenade article. For now it can just redirect to hand grenade. --ZeroOne 19:42, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I think that this could work well if you did an article about tripwires and other military traps. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.28.149.3 (talk) 12:57, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] safety feature

I remember reading something about some modern hand grenades having microcontroller/accelerometer controlled detonators, designed so they don't go off if you simply drop them at your feet (think in terms of measuring the duration of zero-g motion). Can anyone confirm/deny this? -- The Anome 09:33, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] High explosive grenades

Under which category would high explosive (offensive) grenades, like the British No. 69 fit? Oberiko 02:28, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I reckon that it belongs alongside the Mills bomb, Steilhandgranate, and the like. The problem is that 'fragmentation' is too restrictive, it ought to be renamed anti personnel grenades. Presumabley the flying bakelite did cause some injuries on top of the blast. Go on! You make the change. GraemeLeggett 16:19, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Smoke grenades

Whoever keeps removing what I put up about where to buy smokes grenades needs to STOP. I don't see what is wrong with providing where to buy them. They are great for paintball. No matter how many times you remove it I will continue to post it. From: The angry Mr. Smokey

YOU need to stop putting that in.
1)because its against the no-advertising policy of wikipedia.
2) It's only useful to a small number of people - those who want to buy smoke grenades AND live in that geographical area. GraemeLeggett 16:06, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] WP toxicity

I qualified the statment slightly The quoted toxicity values for ingestion are between 1 and 16 mg per kilo body weight: 70 mg to 1120 mg for a medium adult.

[edit] Offensive/Defensive

"The hand sized Mills bomb with a cast iron casing is an example of a defensive grenade, the Stielhandgrenate with a tinplate canister around the explosive and a handle is a classic example of the latter."

This sentence should be two sentences (no comma). Also, is the Stiel really a defensive grenade?

[edit] Timeing mechanisms

Didn't early HGs use an acid timing mechanism? Rich Farmbrough 14:57, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Throwing the pin

From the article: "A common mistake is grasping the grenade in the weak hand, pulling the pin and then throwing the pin." Now, I'm not in the military, but this doesn't really strike me as a particularly common mistake to make. --193.11.222.179 19:31, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

  • I just noticed the same thing and came here to check if it had been discussed. It's got to be hooey. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 01:03, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
    • In fact strikes me as the sort of mistake one makes only once......Rodney420 (talk) 19:04, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Inaccurate?

As a US Soldier two things about this article struck me as off, but perhaps still correct:

(1) "US and other NATO soldiers (with the exception of the US Marines) are trained not to "burn off" or "cook off" grenades..."

I went threw basic training at Ft. Knox in 2000 and did train on cooking off grenades. Perhaps that isn't what they were suppose to train me in, but in my 6-year military career (including a deployment to Iraq) I have never been told not to cook-off my grenades.

(2) All US soldiers going through Basic Combat Training (BCT) for the US Army must throw a live grenade. So the caption on the picture of the soldier throwing a grenade that says throwing a dummy grenade is a part of Basic Training is misleading (though that might be what the soldier pictured is in fact doing).

[edit] NO! You do not wait

R. Lee Ermy (Hoped I spelled that right) is the marine sergeant famous for calling people Maggot and operating a show called "Mail Call" In one episode he explained better then I this fallacy.

In modern training a soldier DOES NOT hold onto a grenade after the pin is pulled. The reason for this is that grenades are mass produced and such are subject to flaws. While a grenade may be intended to go off in 5-7 seconds this does not always happen.

Ermy demonstrated this with a grenade instructor. The Instructor used dummy grenades which only ignited smoke. He threw five grenades, three exploded on time. One exploded late, the last exploded after two seconds. Had a soldier been holding onto this grenade and counting down he and anyone near him would have died had it been the real thing. A soldier who does not want a grenade thrown back throws the grenade so that it will bounce off of something, or roll around making it difficult for the enemy to grab it. Holding onto a grenade and counting down is a sure way to die.

This is a hundred percent wrong. The technique is called "cooking off," and it is taught, practiced, and used. Jrkarp 04:14, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Yeah where did you get your information from? And for that matter how many grenades have you cooked off? And if you were military how long ago? And for that matter what is this bit in the article about holding the handle while cooking off, the thing doesn't arm until the spoon is released. If you are intentionally trying to shave time before you throw the weapon holding the spoon contradicts the whole process.

And for you personally Mister Karp I noticed your little comment. Just because I used a quotation from "Mail Call" does not mean I am citing him as my singular source of information. It is called quoting somebody. You see in our culture we often quote people who do an articulate job of describing or explaining something in order to convey a point.

Don't take things so personally. Geez. Plus, sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~); it puts your username and date of edit after the post. Now, onto your points:
  • I am not going to publicly discuss my military experience; if I wanted to it would be on my user profile along with the note about being a lawyer.
  • I did not add the part about holding the handle while cooking off. I'm going to do a rewrite of parts of this article, and that part will be changed.
  • I know why you used a quotation from "Mail Call," but you added information to the main page of this article, and your only justification for it was having seen the episode of Mail Call. See Wikipedia:Cite_sources.
  • I most definitly know what it means to quote someone, but you have to provide a reference, like an episode number or at least an air date, so it is verifiable.
If you want to disagree with U.S. Army publications and insist your point is right, we can post a RFC and ask others to weigh in. However, I think that a U.S. Army Field Manual is pretty dispositive on this point. Jrkarp 16:27, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Also, if you are going to complain that the globalsecurity.org version is outdated, I found the 2005 revision of that FM in PDF format , but for some reason TRADOC documents can now only be accessed by people with an AKO account. However, Google's "View as HTML" function works for some reason and a cached HTML version can be read here (as of today anyway): http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:DIF-a652qTgJ:atiam.train.army.mil/soldierPortal/atia/adlsc/view/public/8392-1/fm/3-23.30/fm3_23x30.pdf. The section about cooking off is unchanged from the earlier revision. If I can find a PDF version of the 2005 revision, I will post a link. Jrkarp 16:45, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
I found a download that does not require a password: https://atiam.train.army.mil/soldierPortal/atia/adlsc/view/public/10881-1/fm/3-23.30/fm3_23x30.pdf. These documents are not secret and have always been publicly available, so I have no idea why some of the Army sites require a login to access them. Jrkarp 17:49, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Ok, maybe its just us guys in Air Force Secuirty who teach not to cook off, either way I'll accept the article as it is now. As I recall I did not add the Mail Call information to the article directly but kept it in the talk page, if I did add it to the article itself it was unintentional. Klauth 03:17, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

That may be true. You guys don't generally have to deal with MOUT, bunker assaults, or the like.
The material you did add paralleled the Mail Call information, so you can see why I thought that was where you got it from. In any case, I am glad that we worked this out.
BTW, FM 3-23.30 does say that grenades are only to be cooked off in actual combat, so maybe that is part of where Ermy got it from. Maybe the Marines "officially" discourage the practice. In any case, I personally would not want to throw a frag into a room full of OPFOR without cooking it off a second or two. Jrkarp 05:52, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History of Hand Grenades?

I think the history can be expanded to include grenades from ancient times in asia...

[edit] Initial picture wrong

Gents, your initial picture of what you call "A WWII-era MkIIA1 "pineapple" fragmentation hand grenade" is actually a commercial reproduction of an M21 practice grenade body using an M228 practice grenade fuze (that is normally used with the M69 practice grenade). Just letting you know that I will be changing the picture to one that actually shows what you describe. --Eodtek 21:12, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Percussion? Grenades

No such thing. A grenade which detonates or activates on impact is referred to as, "impact fused". "percussion", in ordnance terminology, refers to a technique of activating a weapon system by impact of a striker or firing pin on a percussion cap. While some impact fusing methods use percussion systems, the Russian RGO/RGD for example, they are still simply impact fused grenades. In normal discussion, they're simply referred to as, "impact grenades."

[edit] Propaganda Grenades?

I read in an older book and another source that the German forces during the Second World War actually produced hand and rifle grenades containing propaganda leaflets. I can't imagine them being even vaguely effective, but wonder if something could or should be added to this wiki article.

[edit] Sting Grenade

What is the level of risk of damage to the target individual? I would think such a device could put out an eye at the very least, and perhaps do serious soft-tissue damage. This could be lethal if the soft tissue in question were the throat. Anyone have any information on this?

Septegram 02:43, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Incendiary Grenades

The passage "Thermate and white phosphorus" was changed to "Thermite and white phosphorous." However, elsewhere in the article we do see references to thermate. (all italics mine) Which is correct in this context? Septegram 16:09, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] MILES Grenades

An example of a MILES (laser light stimulation) grenade, developed by Sandia labs for the US Gov't, is found here: . These grenades can be used in MILES training (training using blanks and laser light) Raylopez99 22:59, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WP:MILHIST Assessment

Easily a B-class. I don't know if this is quite ready for GA or A-class nomination, but within my personal conception of the assessment system, it's at the top edge of B-class. Length and depth is great - you've discussed not only the basic grenade, but its history, the etymology of the word, and a good number of the most common types of grenades. Plus there's tons of pictures. Thank you for mentioning the Chinese origins and pre-modern history of the grenade concept. Far too many articles on modern militaries skip that part entirely. Good work. LordAmeth 00:14, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Flashbang - 180 dB?

Is this correct? (I've been close to more than one flash powder detonation in my time, and the noise is truly mind-buggering). However, according to the Acoustic Weapons Page, anything over 160 dB, even at short exposure, can cause eardrum rupture and permanent hearing loss. (120 dB is the pain threshold). Can someone fact-check this?

Sound level depends on distance, and there's no standard measuring distance. A flashbang might measure 180 dB at six inches, but 160 dB at ten feet. --Carnildo 06:15, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Safety handle incorrectly called a spoon?

Under the heading "Characteristics" and the subheading "Using grenades," the article describes the safety handle as "sometimes incorrectly called a 'spoon.'" But I think this term is popular enough among actual members of the armed forces that it should be considered a nickname, not a mistake. It’s not like they don’t know the proper name, they just choose to call it a spoon.


[edit] Legality?

are they legal in the US?

Well, obviously if you're walking around downtown wearing a belt of frag grenades you're bound to raise some sort of suspicion, and I can't think of any scenarios where actually discharging one would be justified (impractical for hunting, too dangerous for self-defense), so my guess would be no. It's a hard subject to track down... Phort99 05:14, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
They're as legal as any other explosive weapon or ammunition round is in the United States - They're classified as a "Destructive Device" under Federal law, and you have to have either a Destructive Devices manufacturers, importers, or dealers Federal Firearms License, or BATF item-by-item approval, and a $200 transfer tax payment per item you purchase as an individual. There is no blanket prohibition (the Military buys its materiel from manfacturers licensed under these laws, and there are legal arms import/export dealers, and others who have permits for them). Georgewilliamherbert 05:26, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Timer

My friend claimed that grenades are not timed. He says this because he saw a video of a man holding a few people hostage with a grenade. The man pulled the pin and the grenade did not explode for the duration of the entire video. I thought it was possible to prevent the fuse from lighting by holding a safety switch down? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.121.66.82 (talk • contribs)

The timer starts once the lever is released. It's so that you don't have to pull the pin and throw immediately (among other things). — SheeEttin {T/C} 23:05, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Not entirely there are granades that detonate on impact.--Tresckow 23:38, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Flashbang image

Anyone like the images [1] or [2]? The first is a model from the game America's Army, so it's PD-Government, I think. The second is a replica M84, probably copyrighted. — SheeEttin {T/C} 23:16, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image:Schema Grenade-en.svg

Hello everybody, and sorry for my bad english.

It is right to warn you that I have just made this diagram, and I made an [[english version version. Here!

Cordially

83.203.246.253 19:31, 1 October 2007 (UTC) Waklé

[edit] That Chinese picture

No disrespect to the Chinese who almost certainly invented gun powder, but am I the only one who is sceptical about that picture of a "hand grenade"? It looks to me like a demon carrying a flaming orb.--MacRusgail 19:20, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pulling out the pin with your teeth!

Hi guys, great article!

I heard somewhere that you need 5lbs of pressure to pull out a grenade pin (I have no way of verifying this, in fact I think my crusty old dad said it to me, and I have not idea what 5lbs of pressure equates to) and therefore it can't be done with your teeth.

Do we think this should be mentioned in the article somewhere, as most people seem to believe that it can be done. I've had a bit of trouble finding good sources but I have these;

Let me know what you think guys.

Also I know one of the presenters tried it and couldn't do it on Mythbusters Episode 81 - Grenades and Guts (Hand Grenade Hero). Ryan4314 (talk) 12:12, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

If your teeth can't stand five pounds of lateral force, you need to see a dentist. Key point is that you don't grip it between your incisors, you grip it between your molars. --Carnildo (talk) 03:45, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
I didn't think it was possible, I just can't find a decent source. Ryan4314 (talk) 05:42, 9 January 2008 (UTC)