Talk:Ham (son of Noah)

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[edit] White supremacy?

This is a completely inappropriate, and I'm editing out most of the article. Most of it has no real citable basis in fact, and a lot of it sounds like KKK and other kinds of white-supremacist creationist nonsense. Bar fly high (talk) 18:55, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Canaan?

The article has Canaan as father of the Canaanites, phoenicians, and Chinese? Did the Hebrews have knowledge of people that far east?--71.222.54.25 00:17, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the Hebrews knew of people that far east. However, the claim that Canaan was the father of the Chinese is incorrect. The Chinese and other Asians are descended from Japheth, the son of Noah. 71.89.6.90 03:31, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

The people does mention the chinese they are called the sinim

http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=chinese

--Java7837 13:16, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Curse of Ham

This was listed under the discussion section of the Noah article, and I figure it also appropriately belongs here, and parts of this discussion could probably be posted in the actual article since it has references: I am not sure where I read this, so for any of you fanatics out there that have the time to research this, here it goes:

Ham was cursed not because he saw his father naked, but because he stole his garment, which was the same garment that was given to Adam (Genesis 3:21) when he was kicked out of the Garden of Eden. This garment also represented the beginning of animal sacrifice (because it was a coat of skin - which came from an animal) to represent the coming of a Savior to be sacrificed for the sins of all mankind (and although an alter is not mentioned, this is the first reference to an alter being used for sacrifice - this being the same type of sacrifice that was made by Abel, Noah, and many others including Moses - Genesis 4:4, Genesis 9:9, Exodus 20:24 as well as many others). The making of this coat would have been the first sacrifice of a living creature. This coat was also said to be a symbol to all creatures not to harm Adam, which is infered in Genesis 9:2 when God tells Noah that all animals will fear him.

It was also said in the book that I got this information from that Nimrod "a mighty hunter," who was a descendant of Ham (Genesis 10:8-9), may have used this garment to lure animals to him so that he could slay them. This idea also came from Genesis 9:2 when it says "into your hands are all [animals] delivered." If this were the case, it would also explain how Noah was able to get so many different animals in the ark.

Well, there it is. Obviously it is not word for word. Sorry I don't own the book where I read this anymore. I don't remember its title or anything. Despite that I don't own the book anymore, and am unsure who first gave rise to this idea, it is obvious that there is some consideration to be made in reference to the ideas presented here.

I mean, to even consider that such a hefty curse would be put upon someone for seeing a naked man (much less his own father) is somewhat naive.

Nammerama 17:57, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

   Let us know when you find the book :-). PiCo 04:00, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay, if you go to google.com and use these words together in this order "noah ham garment hunter" without the quotation marks you can find plenty of references for ideas mentioned above. Again, I don't have time to go through and reference everything, but it is very fascinating, and if anyone has the time it should be added to this article or to the curse of ham article. Nammerama 06:14, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I have a few primary disagreements with the above premise First, The so called curse of Ham, is not actually a curse upon Ham, as much as it was a curse upon the son of ham Canaan. "Cursed be Canaan" is the exact wording used in the KJV version of the Bible. Therefore the curse isn't upon Ham. The wording of the section is a misunderstanding of the passage of the Bible. see article on curse of Ham Second, the narration that is given above about the curse passed by Noah upon his son's family about a stolen fleece seems a bit hokey. Just because a Google search turns up a consensus of a legend does not mean that the legend was fact. (As prevalent and powerful as it is today, was Google there?) a)The Biblical reading of the gathering of the animals for the ark that Noah built will dispel the notion that Noah needed a fleece to gather the animals. God gathered the animals. b)As today, a fleece is a part of a carcase of a dead animal, the skin. All portions of a carcase will decay with time. It is preposterous to think that the fleece of a sheep killed as a garment for Adam would survive until the time of Noah, (calculated by some as 1600-1800 odd years) let alone until the time of Nimrod possibly up to 200 years later. Even the best preserved leather dries out breaks down in time. Third, Some have asserted that the curse wasn't passed simply because Ham saw his father naked, but possibly because Ham expressed himself sexually when he saw his fathers nakedness. I heard one person say that Ham may have taken advantage of his fathers in a homosexual way while he was in a drunken stupor. Another interpretation that would go along with later Jewish law about uncovering the nakedness of ones father would go that Noah's wife may have been drunk as well and that Ham raped his mother. From the Biblical account there is no way of knowing exactly what went on in that tent while Noah was drunk from his wine, whatever the case, Noah must have felt it significant enough that a curse needed to be passed. (incidentally the descendants of Canaan were wiped out following the conquest of the land of Canaan by the Israelites under Joshua.)Mortsey 22:32, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

If there are actually references for the ideas that Mortsey mentioned above, it would be nice to see them so that we can all benefit. As an addendum to my comments above, I did use google to find some quick references but this does not mean that my references are not valid. As mentioned above, the book I originally read that contained these references was lost, and then I used google to see if I could find it. As it turns out, there were multiple references from scripture scholars from various backgrounds(they spend their whole lives studying these things). Again, if you stop to think of the importance of such a garment as was given to Adam by God, it would only seem logical that it would be handed down from father to son. The garment given to Adam was not just some "fleece," but it represented the first animal sacrifice, and the garment of that sacrifice was given unto man(see references in first comment). This was not just something that God did on a whim. Seriously, does God do anything on a whim? This animal sacrifice, performed by God (Gen 3:21), was also the first death upon the Earth, which may be reason enough for it to be important to animals too (seeing as God also created the animals). Maybe this is why Adam and Eve were not mauled by a bear before they could procreate. As a reminder, these ideas are not my own, but come from references that can be found using the search terms above (and I am sure they can be found in other places too). Some may not agree with these ideas, but it would seem that there is more reference in the Bible for the above ideas than to just say that Ham made a homosexual pass at Noah. I have also "heard" that Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden of Edan for sexual sins (which seems strange since Eve was Adams "wife" (Gen 3:17)). However, according to the Bible, Adam "knew" his wife (in that sexual sense) after they had already been "kicked" out (Gen 4:1). I am sure there are other ideas that do not agree with the one that I presented. I love Wikipedia because you are free to present them, but at least try to include some sort of reference. Also, according to the KJV of the Bible it would seem that God commanded Noah to gather the animals into the ark, and he (Noah) did (and the reference for this is Genesis 7:1-9). This is the usual pattern found in the KJV of the Bible: for God to command and for man to act and actually work to accomplish what God commanded man to do. Regarding the garment surviving for so long, Noah was six-hundred years old when the flood came, which may also seem preposterous, but things did seem to last a lot longer in ancient times than they do now. With the perfect knowledge and power that God has, I do not think it would have been too difficult for him to have "figured-out" a way to make it last. Nammerama 04:30, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Okay, so I decided to go out and get an actual reference. Much of this idea of "Ham" being cursed for stealing a garment comes from insights of other scholars, both Jewish and Christian alike, based on excerpts from the Aggadah (check out the Wiki-link to learn more about what the Aggadah is). Apparently, according to Jewish tradition Ham did steal the garment that God made for Adam from Noah and it was passed down to Nimrod. According to this tradition the garment also had power over animals. To read these excerpts for yourself, go to http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/loj/index.htm and go to Chapter 4 (http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/loj/loj106.htm) of Volume One. Scroll down to the bottom section on Nimrod and enjoy. You can also read about Esau slaying Nimrod, taking the garment spoken of and eventually losing it to Jacob in Chapter 6 (http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/loj/loj108.htm) of Volume One under the headings "The sale of the birthright" and "Isaac blesses Jacob". Thus eventually this garment ended up back in the direct lineage of whom it belonged. Coincidence? I don't think so. Anyway, I would highly recommend that you read about the Aggadah in Wikipedia before you read the other links. Nammerama 06:06, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

To me, this explanation makes more sense than any of the other explanations posted in the main article section. Nammerama (talk) 00:51, 28 January 2008 (UTC)