Talk:Haber process

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Peer review This article was externally reviewed (December 14, 2005) by Nature. It was found to have 2 inaccuracies.
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Contents

[edit] Errors ID'd by Nature, to correct

The results of what exactly Nature suggested should be corrected is out... italicize each bullet point once you make the correction. -- user:zanimum

  • The statement "The process was developed by Fritz Haber and Carl Bosch in 1909 and patented in 1910." is slightly misleading. There are early patents, one in 1908 by Haber meant to protect his process, which was discovered independent of Bosch by Haber and his co-workers, one of whom was Le Rossignol. To be honest, the word "developed" does cover this aspect since it was Haber who "discovered" the process while it was Bosch as BASF who made it industrially viable.
  • In the last sentence, 'about half' is vague enough to be misleading.

These have been corrected already. -- Rune Welsh | ταλκ | Esperanza 13:50, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

  • The article needs an historical approach and a table Tamperature x Keq must be created.

[edit] 1% of the world's energy supply …

"1% of the world's energy supply is consumed in the manufacturing of that fertilizer (Science 297(1654), Sep 2002)."

I'm assuming this should be "1% of the world's annual energy consumption …"? --Andymussell 03:03, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Well Ammonia is a very useful chemical so it makes sense it takes a lot to make. LoyalSoldier 05:56, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I've added

I've added related links because the amonium production process is very linked to these articles

I hope ya like it

regards -- User:richardba 02:30, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] pressure

by increassing pressure will also incress the reactian products? but has weakness can be overcome by?

[edit] catalyst

I understand the catalyst is very important to this reaction; without it the reaction would be too slow to be commercially viable. Could someone go into greater detail on that?

Can you say more clearly what exactly you mean? The article has mentioned fully all the needed catalysts and promoters. Causesobad → (Talk) 16:32, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rewrite

I have rewritten the whole article, expanding it, and providing more detail on the reactions that take place. I used most of the previous information anyway, after just moving it around. A.Tomberg 20:52, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

U've repeated the pressure and temperature conditions twice, giving vague estimates, both differing in value. My a-level sheet states 200atm and 400C so whos right?! At least make the range of values consistent in both sections of the piece. GJ

I gave different estimates exactly because wasn't sure of the exact values. So could someone please find a reliable source and give those values with a reference. I hope that would solve the problem. --85.210.148.155 21:34, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

The pressure varies from one plant to another.

[edit] Source materials

Where is the hydrogen used usually sourced from? 220.253.146.79 12:26, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Now the article says it is produced from natural gas (which is true for 95% of the hydrogen production in the world), but it should not cover how hydrogen is produced in detail, since the hydrogen production is not considered a part of the Haber process, and also is covered elsewhere.

[edit] Equilibrium Constants Error

There is an error in the table of equilibrium constants. They do NOT obey van't Hoff (try plotting ln(K) vs 1/T to test it yourself). I suspect the 25C was meant to be 100C, as that would look a lot better. BUT, I don't have a reliable source for these constants to hand, so I cannot correct this now, I hope one of you can. 99of9 07:37, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rewrite needed

This article is a bit of a mess - loads of information but repetitive, occasionally confusing, too chatty and informal - reads a bit like an A-level essay when it comes to describing the effects on equilibria and reaction rates. The introductory paragraph is especially weak:

1. The Haber Process is not the reaction between nitorgen and hydrogen but it is the whole industrial set-up required to make that reaction happen in a viable manner; 2. "The Haber process is important because ammonia is difficult to produce, on an industrial scale". Er ... except by the Haber process... one might make the same claim for any industrial process. 3. "Even though 78.1% of the air we breathe is nitrogen, the gas is relatively inert due to the strength of the triple bond that keeps the molecule together." Atmospheric abundance is only tenuously related to the character of the N-N bond; "keeps the molecule together" - what is this? marriage guidance or what??? 4. "It was not until the start of the twentieth century that this method was developed ... " Is this an implied criticism of human slackness in not coming up with this sooner... 5. "which can then be oxidised to make the nitrates and nitrites essential for the production of nitrate fertilizer and munitions." Or not.

And that's just paragraph 1. Unless I get flamed I might edit some of this in future... Galatian 12:50, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd say go right ahead. I agree with all of your criticisms. 99of9 13:51, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Economic effects?

Shouldn't this section touch on the historical effects the HP had on Chile? From what I understand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Pacific#Long-term_consequences) they were severe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Doctor Optimal (talk • contribs) 20:08, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

  • absolutely so, its global impact was huge, the Haber process killed millions of people as a consequence of explosives and it saved millions of people as a consequence of fertilizers V8rik 20:51, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
  • I don't know how many it killed, but I'd say it saved billions, in a way (of course, if there were no Haber process the world population might not have increased so much and billions of them might not have been born, but who knows?). --Itub 06:25, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
  • I already added the effects in Chilean Economy.

[edit] "Synthesis gas preparation" makes no sense to a non-chemist

The inputs are (apparently) methane, air, H2O, CO, and K2CO3

The steps seem to go back and forth between CO2, H2O, and H2.

If I understand it correctly:

"Steam reforming" converts CH4 + H2O to H2 + CO2. It says there are two steps, identifies one step, but not the second step. Or is "Secondary reforming" the second step?

In "Secondary reforming", the mixture is combined with air (N2 and O2). Some of the H2 combines with the O2 to make H2O, leaving N2.

In the "two shifts", CO is added to the mixture; it takes the O from H2O, recovering the H2. (Where does the CO come from?)

The CO2 removal seems pretty straightforward.

The "Methanator" is a little obscure: how is the methane "recycled", and what becomes of the H2O generated?

I see that the bold-face numbers at the right are the N2:H2 ratios at each stage.

If this could all be stated in lay-acceptable language, it would be much easier to understand.

--Rich Rostrom (Talk) 08:39, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

  • It is not only to non-chemist, as a chemistry student it doesn't make sense to me either. I will try to correct it.

The second reaction from the steam reforming step is simply the shift reaction which doesn't happen untill later in the process, so that is wrong.

The reaction given for secondary reforming is a side reaction and not the reason why secondary reforming is done, I have added the correct reactions and a small explanation

All the stuff about moles in and out and the N2/H2 ratios are just plain wrong, so I removed the lot of them

--Jeroen van der Graaf 11:21  13 March 2008  —Preceding comment was added at 10:26, 13 March 2008 (UTC)