Talk:Great Seal of the United States

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Contents 1 Masons? 2 Eagle claws? 3 Numbering 4 Tincture Convention 5 National Coat of Arms 6 Shield 7 Churchill 8 Designed by Tiffany? 9 Coat of Arms of the United States of America 10 50 Mullets on the Chief? 11 Seal at War 12 References to the number 13 13 Two Interlocking Tetraktyses 14 Native American origins 15 Vandalism 16 Different in the Dollar Bill Article 17 History of the Great Seal 18 Please 19 Symbolism of Eagle 20 FDR's approval of the modern one dollar bill reverse design 21 Reverse 22 Why no mention of the reverse of seal being symbol of the British Israel World Federation? 23 Discrepancy 24 Meaning of Latin words and phrases?

[edit] Masons?

How is it that the masonic symbolism of the pyramid is debunked? It is extremely masonic in its aesthetic, the only thing more distinictly masonic in look would be the concept of globes on top of pillars.

Debunk can be found here. Quoting from the website: "The seal’s Eye of Providence and the Mason’s All-Seeing Eye each express Divine Omnipotence, but they are parallel uses of a shared icon, not a single symbol." --Aluion 11:56, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

I rearranged two of the sections to facilitate discussion of the reverse side of the seal. I deleted the line about Ben Franklin's opinion's on turkeys. It was a joke. What I intended is very serious. Please, discuss the 'murkiness' of the reverse side of the Great Seal in further detail.

Surely this theory and subsequent debunking deserves some kind-of mention? I'm certainly curious about it. I expect the release of a recent piece of fiction may be drawing others, too. -- Jon Dowland 13:03, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Eagle claws?

I thought Harry Truman interchanged the gripppings of the left and right claws to show olive leaves on the right claw in place of the original layout --Ipsofacto 16:16, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

sounds right.. I just saw Bush in his video guide to the oval office saying that they were changed after WW2 by Truman so that the eagle would face away from war --Astrokey44 08:59, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Numbering

It cannot be used 2000 to 2000 times a year as this is the same number. --Daniel C. Boyer 19:47 28 Jul 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Tincture Convention

It should be mentioned how this violates very basic rules of heraldry (there cannot be an uneven number of pallets, for instance). --Daniel C. Boyer 19:48 28 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Well, actually there can, but it can't be blazoned as paly of an uneven number. The shield is technically argent six pallets gules. I clarified the situation as it is clarified in Julian Franklyn's Shield and Crest. - Montréalais

[edit] National Coat of Arms

On June 20, 1782, the Continental Congress adopted an "armorial achievement and reverse of the great seal." This act was the same act adopting the great seal. Since the act specified an armorial achievement, why can't we assume that this is, legitimately, the national coat of arms?

[edit] Shield

The shield has seven white stripes and six red?? Is that a mistake? -Branddobbe 19:40, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

That is not a mistake. That was in the original description of the seal as adopted by the continental congress and has not changed since. Pmadrid 23:47, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Churchill

It is said that Prime Minister Winston Churchill of the United Kingdom told Truman during a 1946 visit that he thought the eagle's head should be on a swivel.

Winston Churchill wasn't Prime Minister in 1946, can I amend this sentence accordingly?

No he was Prime Minister back then, do your research properly. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill#Winston_Churchill.27s_caretaker_cabinet.2C_May.E2.80.93July_1945

LOL. I followed that link you gave, and it says May-July 1945, and 1951 and on. Where is 1946 included then? Actually, Atlee was the PM in 1946. D. F. Schmidt 01:50, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Designed by Tiffany?

The Tiffany website claims that in 1885 they designed the current Great Seal used on the back of the one dollar bill (USD). After looking at some of the other seals I'm confused on what is actually considered the Great Seal. Can any else weigh in on how the Tiffany design plays out in the history of the Great Seal? Please see the 1885 section at http://www.tiffany.com/about/timeline.asp?.

Jasenlee 16:44, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I would presume that they merely reinterpreted it artistically, without changing the fundamental design. Traditionally, heraldic specifications are simple and a great deal of latitude is given to artists. Doops | talk 23:24, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Coat of Arms of the United States of America

It is said in the article that there is no "coat of arms" per se of the U.S., but a U.S. Army site on awards (The Institute of Heraldry of the Pentagon) mentions this on the page for the Distinguished Service Medal.

[edit] 50 Mullets on the Chief?

What the heck does this even mean? I went to the September 11 Commission page and looked at their seal, and I didn't see any huge difference between the two, let alone 50 of something added to the latter. It's been there for a year and a half, so I very possibly could be wrong, but someone at the very least needs to elaborate on this.Flannel 19:06, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

in heraldry, a "mullet" is a star; and a "chief" is a horizontal section at the top of a shield. (As you can imagine, most people assume that the chief should have 50 mullets simply by analogy to the flag.) But you point out, the logo shown at September 11 Commission is mullet-free. Hmmm. Doops | talk 08:29, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

as you mentioned under the Tiffany description, artists do take a bit of latitude. The 9/11 commission symbol is an interpretation of the great seal, not the great seal itself.--Eddylyons 19:52, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Seal at War

Is there anything out there on the eagle's head facing the other way (towards the arrows) when war is declared? I've heard of this before, it even comes up on an episode of the west wing, does anyone know if there is any validity to it? Benw 07:51, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

The article addresses that very point in the "history" section. It seems to be one of those "wouldn't that be fun" things. Doops | talk 08:29, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't see that section (Not sure why, but it looks like it was removed on Nov 15th?!?), but Snopes addresses it quite well, IMO... -- MyrddinEmrys 10:25, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References to the number 13

I'm thinking about adding a section that lists the references to the number 13 in the seal. So far, I know of:

• 13 arrows in the eagle's left talon
• 13 leaves on the olive branch
• 13 olives on the olive branch
• 13 stripes on the shield
• 13 stars above the eagle's head
• 13 letters in the motto E Pluribus Unum
• 13 layers of bricks in the pyramid
• 13 letters in the motto Annuit Cœptis, if you count the œ as two separate letters
• I'm pretty sure that the shield on the one dollar bill has 13 lines darkening the blue field, but I counted without a magnifying glass or anything (which, by the way, is incredibly hard), so I'm not positive.

I wasn't sure whether I should put this in, so I'd like an opinion or two. It may not deserve its own section. But... well, my vote is to include it. Twilight Realm 01:13, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

There's 12 dark lines on the shield on the 1 dollar bill. Image:United States one dollar bill, reverse.jpg -- I. Pankonin Review me! 02:13, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Two Interlocking Tetraktyses

IMHO the 13 stars on the Great Seal of the United States are arranged in a unique shape that has a unique name: "two interlocking tetraktyses". Tetraktys is a shape made of 10 points arranged in 4 rows: 1,2,3,4, the sum of which is 10 which was considered a sacred number by the Pythagoreans. In "two interlocking tetraktyses" the stars (points) are arranged in 5 rows: 1, 4, 3, 4, 1 the sum of which is 13.

Jay Kappraff wrote on his book (Connections, 2001, ISBN: 9810245858 p.4) that while one tetraktys represents the cosmos - two interlocking tetraktyses form the Star of David representing the signs of the zodiac surrounding the 13th point which is the source of life. See: [1] Zeevveez 12:12, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Native American origins

Perhaps some mention should be made of the origins of the eagle/arrow iconography in traditional Iroquois folk art? The original "American eagle" held five arrows in its claws, one for each of the Five (later Six) Nations. This can be read about in Ronald Wright's Stolen Continents. Or perhaps there is a more appropriate article on the use of the eagle in symbolic American nationalism? Fucube 04:29, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

Vandalism by I.P. address: 74.128.172.96 was removed.--Lance ^talk 14:26, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Different in the Dollar Bill Article

In this article, in regards to the pyramid icon, it says 'Where the top of the pyramid should be, the so-called Eye of Providence watches over it.' and 'Two mottos appear: Annuit Cœptis signifies that the Eye of Providence has "nodded at (our) beginnings."'

In the dollar bill article it says 'The separated cap of the pyramid, portraying the all-seeing eye, symbolizes that the United States is still far from finished. The Latin phrase "Annuit Cœptis" ("He [God] has favored our undertaking")'

So, is the top piece of the pyramid the Eye of Providence or the All-seeing eye, and does 'Annuit Cœptis' translate to 'nodded at (our) beginnings' or 'He [God] has favored our undertaking'.--Jcvamp 06:42, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History of the Great Seal

I am adding a few paragraphs in the "History" section of this article in order to show the process by which the current design was ultimately chosen. Several designs were nominated as the great seal prior to the one ultimately chosen; this history is vital to this article. I have just started so feel free to add or edit if necessary. (Gaytan 20:11, 26 October 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Please

I wish you would withdraw your last comment. --124.191.184.12 09:45, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Symbolism of Eagle

• "The symbolism of the seal is obvious—the shield is reminiscent of the national flag, and the Bald Eagle is a well-known national symbol of the United States."

Was the bald eagle a national symbol already at the time of the seals adoption, or did it become the national symbol because of its use on the seal? Incidentally, which came first, the eagle or the egg?--dave-- 14:22, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

According to sources I've read and the source I added to the wiki, "The Bald Eagle was officially declared the National Emblem of the United States by the Second Continental Congress in 1782." 1782 being the same year the seal was approved. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cheddy7 (talk • contribs) 02:54, 29 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] FDR's approval of the modern one dollar bill reverse design

i thought this image was a good addition to the article, but couldnt find a good place to put it, as the article seems overloaded with good images already... here it is for a future day when the copy has been expanded.

popefauvexxiii 19:53, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

According to sources I've read and the source I added to the wiki, "The Bald Eagle was officially declared the National Emblem of the United States by the Second Continental Congress in 1782." 1782 being the same year the seal was approved. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cheddy7 (talk • contribs) 02:53, 29 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Reverse

I'm confused about the "reverse" of the Seal. Our article on Seal (device) doesn't mention them having reverse sides, ie: they appear to be either stamp-like things or they are signet rings, something that only has a single side. This article suggests that a "seal" is like a coin...but wouldn't that make it hard to actually use for the purpose of "sealing" something? 70.20.238.31 18:58, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why no mention of the reverse of seal being symbol of the British Israel World Federation?

This should certainly be mentioned as it is a significant representation of a group which controls the destiny of America. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.221.40.3 (talk) 13:01, 30 January 2007 (UTC).

In what way do British Israelite adherents "control America"?? They had a few prominent individuals expressing sympathy with their views in the late 19th century and/or early 20th century, but they've been a very obscure and uninfluential group, widely viewed as crackpots, for a rather long time now... AnonMoos 22:03, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discrepancy

Text: "The shield the eagle bears on its breast, though sometimes drawn incorrectly, has two main differences from the American flag. First, it has no stars on the blue chief (though other arms based on it do..."

But the picture shown in the article does have the stars... 64.132.221.211 18:06, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm... Interesting... the current image (with the stars) was taken from this document, issued by the 108th Congress in 2003, and published by the US Government Printing Office. Are you suggesting that Congress (gasp) got it wrong? Oh, wait, we are talking about the US Government aren't we?... never mind. If you want to track down a correct version and replace the image, feel free. Blueboar 18:49, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

The opening image of our article is definitely wrong. There are no stars on the shield. The link you provided also shows no stars on the shield, so I'm not sure where the problem came from. Can someone please fix this...it makes us look quite silly.--Eva ^bd 14:51, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Aha...now I see the offending arms in your link (page 42). Interesting that the cover of the .pdf has the correct arms. We still need to fix ours.--Eva ^bd 14:54, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I am not up on how to import images... if you know how to do so, feel free. I agree that we should have the correct seal displayed. Blueboar (talk) 15:16, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Meaning of Latin words and phrases?

What does the Latin in Image:Great_Seal_of_US,_Recto_Design,_1782.png mean? Шизомби (talk) 17:44, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

According to this website:

"In Vindiciam Libertatis" = In Defense of Liberty.

"Virtus sola invicta" = Only virtue unconquered.

"Deo Favente" = With God's Favor (lit., God Favoring)

"Perennis" = Everlasting (lit., Through the years) Blueboar (talk) 18:27, 20 April 2008 (UTC)