Talk:Gough Whitlam

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Former featured article Gough Whitlam is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
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[edit] B-class article

Perhaps Longhair and his fellow solons could tell us mere editors what they find about this article that makes it second-rate in their view. I am willing to put in more time on it (in honour of the Great Man's 90th birthday) if Longahair can advise of its deficiencies. Adam 08:37, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, good question. This article is excellent. Perhaps Longhair is nitpicky about the fact that not many specific statements are sourced; while the reference section is comprehensive it's not clear what parts of the article come from where. --Robert Merkel 06:19, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
If this article had previously met Good article standards (I note it's former FA status), I'd have surely assessed it as being of A-Class. I guess it's my way of saying Why hasn't this article been taken back to GA or FA already? It's a brilliant article Adam, and I trust your expertise on the subject in saying so. Let's bring another quality Australian article out of the shadows. Some more inline references here and there (they're a fussy mob over at FA and I strong suggest making use of WP:CITE) and I'm sure this would reach FA status without a hitch. -- Longhair 06:23, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
References section started. Add some more at your leisure. --Robert Merkel 06:46, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Even at his 90th birthday, it appears EGW does NOT wear glasses —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.84.78.162 (talk • contribs)

OK I will dust off my references and see what can be done. We are still waiting a serious academic or official biography - I assume there is one in the pipe awaiting the GM's demise, but this event seems some way off yet. And indeed, I have never seen Gough in glasses, either in person or in a photo. Adam 08:20, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I hope everyone realises that by lavishing more time and attention on the Great Gough, we are guilty of systemic bias, and we will now to redo all the PM articles to get them up to the same standard. They were passable two years when I wrote most of them, but they need upgrading now - especially Menzies and Fraser. Adam 08:35, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

There's been a greater push for referencing of late since the introduction of Category:Living people and the controversies that proceeded its' creation. I've spotted a few other Australian politician articles close to meeting the Good Article criteria, most with similar referencing issues only. It won't take long to get them all up to todays par. What was considered good around here yesterday seems old hat now. -- Longhair 08:44, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not just talking about referencing, I'm talking about depth of coverage. Fraser was PM for twice as long as Whitlam but his article is seriously inferior, and he has had a solid biography (Ayres) we could canibalise. The difference is systemic bias - everyone hates Fraser (even Liberals these days) so no-one bothers with his article. Adam 08:48, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

By the way does anyone know what happened to Cathy Whitlam? The three sons are easily googleable but she has presumably married and disappeared from view. Adam 08:48, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

PPS I hate the way this footnoting device we are now using disrupts the line spacings. It is very ugly and makes me reluctant to use it. Adam 08:52, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it's rather ugly. However, given that we're being forced to reference things in a general-readership encyclopedia, footnoting is about the least ugly way of doing things, and the beauty of using the referencing code that if somebody fixes the code to make the references look prettier, we won't have to do any changes to the article itself; it'll just happen.
As far as the formatting goes, however, I wonder whether something that looks like what happens when inline URLs are used, like this: [1], might be better than superscripted footnotes. What do you think? --Robert Merkel 09:53, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

They don't disrupt the line-spacing, but they often have this funny little gap that follows them, which I don't like either. I've always prefered Harvard footnoting myself, but it seems to have no following here. Adam 10:08, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

What I'm proposing, however, is that Wikipedia's referencing system be modified to display referencing like the example I've given, but without the funny little gap and using the dark blue to indicate an internal link. That would require asking the powers that be to change the footnoting code. But the point is that if we use the built-in referencing system any future technical changes to improve the appearance will happen automatically. And inputting references is f(*&Jg tedious, so I dunno about you but I'd certainly prefer to only have to do it once. --Robert Merkel 10:21, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes I understand that point (you have to explain technical matters s l o w l y to me). I will persevere. Adam 10:50, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I came here considering that I might read this article for Spoken Wikipedia; it's a very interesting article and I commend those who have worked so hard on it. However, as a new reader I found myself noticing many assertions that didn't appear to be substantiated. I'm sure they are well known facts to people more familiar with the subject, and perhaps that is sufficient in itself, but my sense is that Wikipedia likes to see such statements be supported. I added a couple of citation needed tags where I thought they were especially needed. Natebailey 23:33, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the following unsourced statements in preparation for GA review:

  • Although Whitlam knew this was partly a ploy by Hawke to get him out of the country, he hugely enjoyed the Paris posting and made a great impression on other UNESCO delegates. He has published several volumes of memoirs.
  • The Labor historian Bob Ellis has described him as "the self-appointed deity of the Labor Party".
  • Whitlam has also been offered both a Companion of Honour (CH) and a position as a Privy Councillor, but in keeping with his opposition to Imperial Honours, but he declined the offers.

haydn_likes_carpet (talk) 23:49, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

This article was a former Featured Article. Seems a bit of a backward step to aim for GA... Timeshift (talk) 23:59, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I know, but the FA criteria seems to have tightened up a bit since then, especially WRT WP:BLP. I thought I'd aim low and avoid disappointment! haydn_likes_carpet (talk) 01:52, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Removed assessment

This is one possible interpretation of the Whitlam era's economic policies: however, it's not NPOV-compliant and unsourced.

The flow on effects of Whitlam reforms became evident in the following years. The tarriff cuts and abolition of the tarriff board allowed imports to be sold in the Australian market and effectively compete with locally-made goods. Whitlam implemented this measure in an attempt to break the connection between inflation and rising wages prices (caused by market forces and union pressure). He believe that if businesses were forced maintain their prices by having to compete with imports, they would be unable to pass on the cost of wage-rises on to the consumer. Accordingly, "a level playing field" would be created because businesses would be forced to forgo profits to finance wage increases if they wished to remain competitive in the market place. In addition to bridging the financial gap between the employer and the employee, Whitlam believed that this transition would have the side benefit on controlling inflation for the same reasons: businesses cannot easily increase the prices of their goods and remain competitive if the market place contains imports at approximately the same price.
Unfortunately, narrowing profits started become narrow losses, largely within the manufacturing and manual labor industries. This was compounded by ongoing high interest rates, some further tarriff cuts, inflation and increasing taxes required to fund an expanding welfare expense. Throughout the late 1970s and 1980s, scores of manufactures closed down, either due to bankruptcy or relocation to neighbouring countries where labor was cheaper, from which, they then exported their goods into Australia. The economic recession of the late 1980s and early 1990s reduced their numbers even further. Ironically, the tarriff reform policy that the Whitlam government designed with the intention of benefitting the working class was one of the largest contributing factors to the collapse of work-class industries, which accordingly resulted in mass unemployment across the manufacturing, trade and manual handling sectors. Textile and footwear manufacturing in particular has all but disappeared from the Australian business landscape.
Despite the economic boom since the millenium onwards, Australia has an enormous and concerning foreign trade deficit, fueled by increased consumer spending in a market where the vast majority of products are manufactured overseas and imported. In the absence of a strong manufacturing sector, Australian governments have been unable to reverse or even stall the growing foreign trade deficit and it continues to remain an issue of growing concern amongst all sectors of governments and economists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Robert Merkel (talk • contribs)

[edit] Medibank / Medicare

Just a susggestion about a point which could be considered confusing for some. Medibank was later(1984) reintroduced as Medicare. This not being included could prove confusing for some as there is now a private health insurer called Medibank. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.237.187.29 (talk • contribs)

[edit] Bob Ellis: Labour Historian??

Is it correct to call Bob Ellis a labour historian. He has a strong interest in labour history, but he is also, a well known writer of opinion pieces. Perhaps this makes him somewhat too biased to be a Historian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.73.204.141 (talk • contribs)


[edit] The dismissal section -Made changes with references

Taken the liberty to make several changes, cited with references. The sub-article is about the dismissal of Whitlam; that being so then the leads-up around replacement senators into the Senate (debates around Section 15 of the Constitution) are scene setters and warm-up to the main event. The main event, the actual dismissal was precipitated by the issue of a government failing to get supply (in accordance with Section 53) and the actions taken by Kerr (Section 64 of the Constitution)to avert that money crisis.

The role of any parliamentary government and its only legimiate reason for its existance and continuance is to raise tax(supply) monies for the running and payment of government services/business. This matter has been almost by-passed in the article, thus missing the essence of the dismissal and so I made several changes - hopefully in a neutral opionion - to reflect the matter of money bills. Whilst there is still angst around what occurred on 11 November 1975, the 'constitutional crisis' was over the looming issue of Supply and this sub-article, if it is to evolve into an accurate piece of writing ought focus on the question of money bills, to conduct and provide the services of government.Tonyob 12:11, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Date of Barwick's advice

The date of Barwick's advice to Kerr is mentioned, twice, as 10 December 1975. This can't be right, as the whole furore was about Kerr daring to approach Barwick for advice before he decided to sack Whitlam. It must have been before 11 November. JackofOz 00:52, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

10 November 1975, the Monday morning. See Kelly, "November 1975", p223. Incidentally, the "furore" is misplaced. Barwick's advice was not in the nature of the advice Kerr would receive from a minister, but more in the line of a legal opinion. --Pete 03:22, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
But surely it's inappropriate for the Chief Justice to be giving advisory opinions in such circumstances, an action quite clearly ultra vires? The GG had been explicitly advised by the PM not to seek any advice from Barwick. Slac speak up! 03:43, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

The first point is not sound. Barwick did not claim to be giving an "advisory opinion", something neither the High Court nor the Chief Justice has the power to do. He was giving Kerr his personal opinion, which he had a perfect right to do. And it was not a "legal opinion" anyway, it was Barwick's opinion about Kerr's constitutional powers - essentially it was political advice. The second point, however, is sound. Whitlam had advised (ie, instructed) Kerr not to seek advice from Barwick (whom he quite rightly did not trust), and Kerr was wrong to then do so without advising Whitlam. Adam 03:54, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

That's the salient point; not that Barwick's advice was good or otherwise in itself, or even whether he was speaking as a private citizen or as a learned judge, but that Kerr had no right to discuss the matter with Barwick at all because he was in so doing acting contrary to the advice of his Prime Minister. This aspect was very much a furore at the time as I recall, apart from the dismissal itself. I've amended the dates, thanks all. JackofOz 03:58, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] photo

People people people, can we please change the picture that appears at the beginning of this article. I think a photograph depicting the man at the height of his leadership is probably more appropriate than a recent photo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.178.93.97 (talk • contribs)

If you have such a photo that is copyright free or that you hold the copyright for, please feel free to upload it. Cheers, WikiTownsvillian 03:20, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Done. It is allowed as per hesperians comments about politician photos, and im told it is still ok like i've changed it to, as there is no fair free use alternative for him 'at that age'. Timeshift 03:36, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] ... so fix it.

This would be the reply to the post I was going to make on this article - that it is long, repeats itself in parts, has prose that is at times disjointed and listish. I think we should make this article a target for improvement in the near future, with an emphasis at first on consolidating and clearing the cobwebs, and then on putting in any missing info, sources etc needed to complete the article, before finally trying to earn this article's prior FA status back. Orderinchaos 16:09, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

ACOTF? It'd be nice to have a collaboration article people actually collaborate on.--cj | talk 01:29, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
I've made a start. This article was one where Adam Carr and I were able to collaborate effectively. I note that over the intervening time it's become harder to find any criticism of Whitlam, whose downfall seems to have been a plot by his enemies, rather than the natural result of a massive loss of public confidence in two years.
I've corrected a few details and removed a paragraph of speculation about Albert Field. --Pete 02:04, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
The piece could use more references - the references given are in a variety of styles. The dismissal has a long, almost minute by minute, description which duplicates (and probably contradicts) what is contained in the main article on that event. We could usefully reduce this to a paragraph or two.
Interesting to see that the loans affair barely rates a mention. IMHO, that was the scandal that ended any chance Whitlam had of survival, and set the Opposition to work at getting rid of him before the next election was due. --Pete 02:12, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to place on the record that the Loans Affair is wikilinked at Australian federal election, 1975. Timeshift 02:14, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes. The question of balance is raised. Important negative events such as TLA get barely a mention, but the dismissal sprawls over several screens, heavily whitewashed. Whitlam really stuffed up that one. On a positive note, I'd like to see some more discussion about what Whitlam meant to Australian society. Some of the things he did were truly revolutionary, and he was a living embodiment of WP:IAR long before Jimbo thought of the concept. --Pete 02:29, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Good article nomination

I found this article engaging to read, but unfortunately there are just not enough citations to support what is being said. Please see WP:When to cite, and the Mary Wollstonecraft (FA) article as an example of a well-referenced article, and add more citations.

I'm putting this article on hold as the article is close to meeting the GA criteria, however the issue noted above should be dealt with before GA status can be awarded. I hope that this can be addressed within the seven days allowed by on hold, and wish you all the best with your editing... -- Johnfos (talk) 03:48, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Also, without even reading the article, I noticed that the third paragraph of "Prime Minister 1972-75" is not a work of prose, but a list smashed together and separated by semicolons — this will need to be fixed as well. Cheers, CP 03:58, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
I think that most of it is defensible and based on the books listed in further reading, but to get to FA it will need sources for each para (perhaps less for GA) and that the books will have to be looked at and page references inserted.--Grahame (talk) 04:06, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
I know it's bad form to make suggestions and not do something about them. If i can, I'll come back to the page, but for what it is worth I have three suggestions:
  • provide more references for the government's acheivements, both in the 1972-75 section and the 'Legacy' section.
  • try and find a little more information on his early life / family background
  • most pressing issue: the organisation, prioritisation, writing quality and sequencing of material from "Legacy", through "East Timor" to "Out of office" can get much better.
Having said all that, I think this looks very good and surely cannot be a long way from FA quality, not just GA. Cheers hamiltonstone (talk) 03:23, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I reiterate what I stated above and totally agree with Grahame. More references are needed to support what is being said. The article needs sources for most paragraphs and needs page numbers for book sources where possible. The article is still not worthy of GA status at this time. Please consider re-submitting the article after improvements are made. -- Johnfos (talk) 23:18, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 1969 election 2pp

He actually won a bare majority of the two-party preferred vote, but the Democratic Labor Party's longstanding practice of preferencing against Labor left him four seats short of bringing the Coalition down. - what does one have to do with the other? If one votes DLP then Liberal then Labor, that goes to the Liberal 2pp. If one votes DLP then Labor then Liberal, that goes to the Labor 2pp. Timeshift (talk) 09:42, 15 May 2008 (UTC)