Talk:Gormenghast series

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Can we not say a little more about it than that?

Contents

[edit] Cleanup tag

I have added a cleanup tag specifically in reference to the character list; is it really necessary to tell us that Swelter attempts murder, or that Titus finally flees the castle? This isn't and shouldn't be part of character description! --^pirate 17:49, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A little analysis

I can't post this in the article because Wikipedia has a policy that does not allow original research. However I thought some of you might appreciate to read this. It's a short analysis of Gormenghast through the theory of Robert Merton:

According to the theory of American sociologist Robert K. Merton, anomie is a discontinuity between cultural goals and the legitimate means available for reaching them. Applied to the behavior of the characters of Gormenghast, this would mean that most of its denizens fall under the category of conformity (for example Gertrude Groan or Sourdust). Ritualism, and later even retreatism, is most evident in the character of Sepulchrave, who mindlessly performs his daily rituals until it drives him mad. Steerpike on the other hand is a prime example of the innovator, attaining societal goals by unacceptable means. Finally, Titus Groan rejects both societal goals and means and substitutes other goals and means.

--Steerpike 14:53, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] let's not call this a trilogy

Not a trilogy, not a trilogy, not a trilogy:

  • the series was never envisaged as a trilogy. This is stated multiple times, in dozens of correspondences, in essays, in critical interpretations, and even in the text of Titus Awakes.
  • There are more than three works.
  • 'Trilogy' connotes a similarity to fantasy novels ala Tolkien, a similarity which hardly applies.
  • 'Series' describes the body of work clearly, while 'trilogy' muddles the situation.

--Firsfron 01:41, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

There are three published and coherent works which each link together to form a continuous story, and thus it is a trilogy. The Oxford definition of Trilogy is A group of three dramatic or literary works related in subject or theme. Can you really argue that the Gormenghast collection as it is published (and yes, although Peake planned more, since he published but three coherent pages they cannot be included) is not A group of three dramatic or literary works related in subject or theme? --^pirate 17:55, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

If you were to use the OED's sweeping generalizations, then yes it is a trilogy. If you were looking to follow the creator's intent, the story should be called "The Titus Books," and would be referred to as an unfortunately unfinished series. There are enough scholarly papers discussing how the Titus books are structured. You are all big boys and girls, grab the one volume trade by Overlook: ISBN# 0879516283, and read the critical essays. The actual debate about what the series should be called could be expanded into part of the article. Tolkien's books can also purchased in a six volume set, three volume set, and a single book... they shouldn't be called a trilogy. That unfairly excludes The Hobbit. Similarly this would exclude the short writings Peake crafted before the primary texts, and the unfinished fourth novel. It is one story, intended to follow from birth to death the life of Titus Groan. Just avoid the T-word.

[edit] steampunk

Why categorise Gormenghast as steampunk? It's nothing of the sort, even though it inspired novels that are, in fact, steampunk (like Perdido Street Station). Could you please explain the rationale? --Goblin 23:25, Aug 31, 2004 (UTC)

I can see the steampunk elements - though only if you take Titus Alone into account, which I don't usually like to (I'm a two-book man). sheridan 23:31, 2004 Nov 28 (UTC)
The books, however, predate the start of the steampunk sub-genre as delineated by K. W. Jeter, Tim Powers, James Blaylock, etc. Titus Alone could be considered proto-steampunk, I guess, but not steampunk per se. --Goblin 23:13, Nov 29, 2004 (UTC)
I don't see that as being relevant. The Castle of Otranto was written before the Gothic novel as a genre existed, but that doesn't stop it being a Gothic novel itself. sheridan 06:52, 2004 Dec 1 (UTC)

[edit] steerpike

On a separate note - I see that Steerpike has just been identified as albino. I get the impression he is pale, but I don't recall any references to albinism. Can anyone clarify this, as I don't really want to plough through 1,000 pages to find the answer. sheridan 23:31, 2004 Nov 28 (UTC)

I thought that strange too, I don't recall any explicit reference to albinism in Steerpike either. But I could have missed it or simply forgotten, it's been a while since I read the books. --Goblin 23:05, Nov 29, 2004 (UTC)
In two minds whether to remove the albino reference until I next read the books, or leave it in, until I next read the books. sheridan 06:52, 2004 Dec 1 (UTC)
I'm re-reading the series now, and I notice that there are repeated references to Steerpike's eyes being dark red. That could well lead someone to the interpretation that he's an albino, but I also recall the initial description of him as having sandy hair, which implies that he isn't. Given the lack of a clear mention in the book itself, its probably best it remains out of the description. - HJC
Good to see I'm not the only one who noticed. Reading the books I've always envisioned Steerpike as "albino". Of course Gormenghast has its fair share of fantastical elements (Titus' violet eyes, the castle, the flood, the tree,...) but in a way none of them are so outrageous as to be impossible. And it is very well possible that Steerpike was meant to be albino, even when not outright stated (perhaps Peake felt an explicit reference was too blunt?). Pale skin, red eyes, sandy hair (HJC albino people have white to "yellowish" light hair),... I don't know if it's worth mentioning on the page though. It's all speculation anyway. --Steerpike Sep 22, 2005
I'm not sure how fantastical violet eyes are...as for Steerpike, human albinos don't have red eyes. They have light blue-looking eyes. Albino animals have red eyes. That would be cool as hell if Steerpike was meant to be albino, but the eye thing isn't quite right. I always just interpretted the dark red as brown. I wonder...
Me too...I think Peake says somewhere that they're so light brown they're red or something, so that's what I got too.

[edit] format

I don't like the format of this page - the 'menu' is too far down the page, and there's too much background text before that. I don't think it should be split into separate pages, but I think it should be re-arranged a little, say 'introduction', menu, background, the castle, inhabitants.sheridan 08:08, 2004 Dec 1 (UTC)

Yes, the article looks awful, especially due to all the red links, altho the formatting is terrible also. Please do all you can, I'm going to list it on WP:CU. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 12:52, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] It's not small

|Its features include a library, a large kitchen, walls, an art gallery (specifically carvings), a dining hall, a lake and a school.|

This, to me, makes the castle seem kind of small - implying that there is not much else of importance in the castle... But I can't think how to rewrite it.

BTW, feel free to edit my 'genre' section - it's probably not accurate, and needs to be more NPOV, but I thought it was a relevant point for the article --Uberisaac 10:38, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Titus Alone & Gormenghast Castle

Ok, to clear this up, right at the end, Titus does find the castle (though does not see it):

Gormenghast, his home. He could feel it. He could almost see it. He had only to skirt the base of the great rock or climb its crusty crown, for his eyes to become filled with towers. There was a taste in the air of iron. There was a quickening it seemed of the very stones and of the bridgeless spaces. What was he waiting for?

-Sam Pointon 11:49, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Castle

"In the second book a flood drowns the lowest levels of the castle and turns the upper regions into stone islands, yet still there is accomodation for the regular inhabitants and an influx of refugees, with very substantial areas still empty."

This is a spoiler, so I don't think we should leave it in the castle description. 72.48.33.21 01:25, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, but instead let's mark it as a spoiler.Ziggurat 01:30, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Split?

Having another look, I'd almost be inclined to split this article into two: it currently describes both the castle and the series, and those should really be two different articles, just as Titus Groan is separated into Titus Groan (novel) and Titus Groan (character). Ziggurat 01:36, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, this should then be a disambig, pointing to Gormenghast (castle), Gormenghast series, Gormenghast (novel), and Gormenghast (miniseries). Ziggurat 02:25, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Inclined to agree. We need to be able to describe the castle without worrying about spoilers.

I agree to the four 'Gormenghasts' above; all four I think, and not just 'Castle' and 'Series' as is suggested on the article page. Also, and I guess it's a result of the 'trilogy confusion', but 'Gormenghast series' makes me think of the TV series, not the books (the latter is meant, yes?). 150.203.2.85 05:50, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
I feel I should give my opinion, which is that perhaps we should consider not having a Gormenghast (castle) article. Having an article for a place in a series makes more sense if there are a vast number of locations explored - a good example would be the The Lord of the Rings on wikipedia, which details a number of locations like Moria and Gondor. But Gormenghast (and its environs) being the only location of two of the books, and not a major location in the third (I assume, but I've not read it),it may be better to leave it in the main article.--Mr Bucket 21:39, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Normally, I'd say absolutely, but in this case Gormenghast the castle actually has a cultural cachet that extends well beyond the series itself ([1], [2], [3], [4]). Gormenghast as a setting is significant enough to have its own entry in Manguel and Guadalupi's Dictionary of Imaginary Places, too. Ziggurat 00:11, 13 October 2006 (UTC)