Talk:Galleon

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I refer to the second paragraph in the article and as far as I know Galleons were developed after the introduction of carvel hull building design. I dont know af any clinker-built galleon.

"As the ships' size increased in the 15th Century, the clinkerbuilt hull was found to be unsuitable as it wasn't tight enough -- the largest clinker built ship, the English Grace Dieu (1418) was a failure, and signalled the end of the building method in favour of the carvel-built hull." http://www.greatgridlock.net/Sqrigg/two-mast.html

Mem


Thanks for clearing that up.

Gurnard (the guy who wrote the original article)

Contents

[edit] Disambig?

I really think the main "Galleon" article should be about the ship, with a note saying "For ot her uses of the term, see Galleon (disambiguation)." In my opinion, the ship is far more notable than any of the other things. -LtNOWIS 05:38, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Galleon (ship) → Galleon – The meaning referring to a type of ship vastly overshadows all other uses of this word. There is no need for the term's main page to be a redirect. --Yath 18:32, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Done. —Nightstallion (?) Seen this already? 13:53, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Speed

What was a typical speed for a galleon? - anon

Depends on the point of sail and the amount of wind. If the wind is good (trade winds of 20 kts), perhaps around 8 kts on a broad reach, tacking upwind much slower. I can't find a good source though. - MW

[edit] Sail Plan

Viv Hamaltin asked in May 2007 if I could do a sail plan. Here is one I came up with. It is based on what is readable on the Matthew Baker drawing, so I am confident on the acuracy. I propose entering it into the main article with the following text. Please advise. Comments are welcome. I could provide a table of sail dimentions as well.

The English galleon as drawn by Matthew Baker had four masts, main-mast, fore-mast, main mizzen-mast and a bonaventure mizzen. The main and fore-mast carried three square-rigged sails each, while the two mizzen-masts were lateen rigged with triangular fore and aft sails. A sprit sail was usually carried on the bowsprit. The English galleon of that time, circa 1550, would have flown the St George's Cross on all masts except the main-mizzen would have flown the Tudor rose.24.15.5.27 (talk) 05:06, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hull types and lines of battle

It has been brought to my attention that the comparison between galleons and ships of the line may be somewhat misleading. As I've understood it, a galleon is a hull type while a ship of the line is a classification based on armament. Any comments?

Peter Isotalo 05:37, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

I think the article makes it clear that galleons essentially predated the ship of the line classification. It is also worth bearing in mind that hull type, sail and armament are not independent. A clipper or frigate needs a fast hull form as well as the rigging to carry a lot of sail area, and rigging type that allows it to sail close to the wind; a first rate needs a hull form with multiple decks to accommodate the armament. The rating classification wasn't purely based on counting cannons - the vessel had to be able to do what was expected of it in battle. I guess it's like if we say 4x4 today, we are technically referring to traction, but this will also imply a vehicle that is heavier and more ruggedly built than a family saloon. Viv Hamilton 08:53, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, yeah... But one would quite naturally expect that a functioning classification of armament would take into consideration that ship actually worked properly with as many cannons as it was assigned (unlike Vasa) and the fact remains that the various ratings are defined primarily by the number of guns. That still leaves a problem about the development from galleon to ship of the line being a bit like comparing apples and oranges. And this has quite obviously been misunderstood by many contributors since I've had to change information about, for example, Vasa being a ship of the line (before the tactic was even properly developed!) all over English Wikipedia. Apparently, it's not quite a galleon either, but at least it's not a complete anachronism.

The question I keep asking myself is: what came after the galleon hull-wise?

Peter Isotalo 07:43, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

I believe it is more subtle than simply whether or not the weight of cannons makes the vessel top-heavy! The sailing qualities of the bigger ship should allow it to dominate smaller ships when they close in battle, as well as it being able to carry more cannon and therefore give a bigger broadside. There was significant evolution of hull-form in the 17th and early 18th century, with Britain copying the hulls of captured French ships, like Hazardous. I know that when the ships were built they were given class names (e.g. Trincomalee was Leda class), but this is presumably a whole area of specialised naval history yet to be added to WP. The other interesting question is the fourth mast, the bon aventure. Later ships don't have it. A maritime archaeologist friend of mine thinks that it was needed on galleons to counteract the effect of wind catching the stern castle. The lower lines of the ship of the line, mean that you don't need it, and the more masts you have, the harder a vessel is to sail. As I said, hull form, sail plan and armament are interrelated! Viv Hamilton 08:33, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
I take it back, some of it has been added, see List of battleships of the Royal Navy and List of frigate classes of the Royal Navy. Not a lot of explanation however! Viv Hamilton 08:42, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

The list of battleships is a bit dubious. The term "battleship" didn't even exist until the late 18th century, so why are ships from as early as the late 15th century included?

I'm not disputing the importance of hull design, but going by what just about all articles here explains, it seems as if the primary concern for classification was the number of guns, not the trim or number of masts or whatever. To someone who doesn't know much about the topic, it just seems as if there's a missing link between galleons and ships of the line. Are the only applicable terms really just "ship of the line" or the various class names?

Peter Isotalo 22:29, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Possibly because from the 17th century, the navies of Europe became obsessed with the ship of line style battle, and presumably devoted their marine engineering skills to perfecting the concept. Are you aware that ships didn't necessarily carry the number of cannons indicated by their rating? I will try to find out about merchant vessels (although at that time merchant ships were armed as well!). There was significant variation in sail plan, depending on the job you wanted the ship to do. There are numerous types of ships classified e.g. brigs, cutters etc, my impression is that the sail plan is more significant than the hull, or perhaps the hull followed the sail plan. Viv Hamilton 17:23, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Conflict...

In the intro it says... Carracks tended to be lightly armed and used for transporting cargo, while galleons were purpose-built warships, and were stronger, more heavily armed, and also cheaper to build (5 galleons could cost around the same as 3 carracks) and were therefore a much better investment for use as warships.

But then a couple sections down it says...

Hundreds of expert tradesmen (including carpenters, pitch-melters, blacksmiths, coopers, shipwrights, etc.) worked day and night for months before a galleon was seaworthy. To cover the expense, galleons were often funded by groups of wealthy businessmen who pooled resources for a new ship. Therefore, most galleons were originally consigned for trade, although those captured by rival nations were usually put into military service.

So one says warships, other says trade ships. Which one's right?...