Talk:Frotteurism

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[edit] Refrain from sexual aspects

One wonders how far we want to go into the sexual aspects of this - it's considered sexual assault and has been prosecuted, though I can't come up with any dates or places right now. Then there's the term "zipless fuck" and the scene in No Way Out with Kevin Costner and Sean Young in the back seat of a taxi cab. - Zoe 03:15, 2 June 2003

A "fipless zuck" may be a crime - but life isnt lived on the books necessarily - And what constitutes "rape" - can deteriorate into a very useless definition - without penetration, no rape has occured, as I understand it... (in typical male fashion). And 'frottage' tends to mean (as I understand it) a way of embellishing in the mind - normal jostling on a train into something intimate. Its most likely a one-way thing... one party considers you (the hypothetical frottageer) as virtually nonexistent or at most, a pest.
On the rare occasions I've made some sort of "meaningful contact" on a train or a bus - its highly localized to the context - it cant be recreated on the street or something. It's meaningless - talking with someone is a different route altogether.
The idea that something exists is enough to make it a social phenomenon - an urban legend, if you will. It makes a whole bunch of sense, when you consider how many in our culture live isolated - often frenetic lives. The idea that a cheap five minute "date" can be had on the way back home from work - is no doubt appealing to a MacDonalds-ized culture. God I hope MacDonalds-ized is not a real word.
I dunno. .) --豎眩sv 03:50, 2 June 2003

[edit] Isn't it included in Frottage?

I was under the impression that Frottage covered more than just rubbing against other people. I seem to recall it cover sexual gratification from contact through materials (i.e. silk, rubber whatever), not neccesarily just discreet rubbing. User:Alex 14:32, 6 June 2003

Frottage can certainly be more than just discreet rubbing. At least as a practice amongst gay men (and, presumably, other groups) it tends to be taken to mean stimulation (often to orgasm) from rubbing against one another, generally whilst naked. I wouldn't suggest that it's merely brushing past someone on the tube. — OwenBlacker 13:47, Jun 17, 2004 (UTC)
THE WORD FROTTEURISM HAS NO MEANING EXCEPT A PSYCHIATRIC TERM FOR A SEXUAL DISORDER. PLEASE DO NOT CONFUSE IT WITH FROTTAGE WHICH CAN REFER TO NORMAL SEXUAL ACTIVITY. Haldrik 09:06, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] DSM category

Under the DSM frotteurism is listed as a "Sexual and gender identity disorder". This category combines both "sexual disorders" and "gender identity disorders". It is listed under the category "Paraphilias". Frotteurism is not necessarily a disorder. It depends on whether it causes significant distress or impairment. --CloudSurfer 11:56, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I agree. Disorder in such context is certainly biased, and I personally fail to see how it can even be considered to be one.--Orthologist 21:51, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
This is incorrect. According to DSM-IV-TR Frotteuristic behavior is always a disorder. It specifically does NOT depend on whether it causes significant distress, and is always considered a role impairment. This is made explicitly clear in several places (see p. 570 and p. 840).Gogh (talk) 03:00, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Why warnings from nudity in external links?

I see two of the external links have warnings that 'While mostly informational this site does contain some pictures of nudity'. Is this necessary, given the (to me, acceptable) omission of any such warning for the internal link to tribadism? --Townmouse 23:16, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Another (important?) version: skitching

Should "skitching" be mentioned here? This is the act of rubbing up against fur when both (or all) parties are clothed in animal costumes. There is apparently a small but growing community of people who enjoy and practice this at conventions and other gatherings.

I've been surprised to hear the term many times: On episode of CSI (original, 3rd season I think) featured this. Also in chat rooms where some members have selected an avatar or describe themselves as an animal, other people have typed that they were "skitching" that person.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.13.172.18 (talk • contribs) 16:29, 15 August 2005

[edit] Delusional

From what I remember reading there is also commonly a delusional element to this disorder, whereby the frotteur admits after the incident that he (typically) believes a mutual bond of admiration exists between the victim and himself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.235.15.33 (talk • contribs) 04:35, 14 October 2005

[edit] Frot vs. frotteurism

I came on this article purely by accident, and was about to nominate it for deletion as unencyclopedic...but I found a sufficient number of non-mirror google hits to keep me from doing so... I added a link for a male-male frotteurism site, but I'm wondering about the classification of this "activity" as a "disorder". Could someone please clarify why this is classified as a disorder but anal sex is not? Tomertalk 07:35, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Frot and frotteurism are NOT the same thing. Confusingly, both are sometimes called frottage from the French word for "rubbing". Psychologically, frotteurism gets classified as a paraphilia, understood as a disorder. By contrast frot is normal and is simply another word for male-male genital sex, which is part of sexual variation. In the case of frot, the term frottage has been abandoned, so as to avoid confusion with the paraphilia. Frot is the preferred term for male-male genital sex. I moved the link to the Heroic Homosex site to Frot. - Haldrik 14 December 2005 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Haldrik (talk • contribs) 08:05, 14 December 2005
Yeah, I see that. Thanks, and thanks for the clarification. Tomertalk 08:51, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
So does anyone really think the frot and frotteurism (but oddly enough not tribadism) articles should be merged? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.192.81.7 (talk • contribs) 17:49, 30 January 2006
I've put up a reccommendation for a tribadism merger as well just to be thourough, though I personally think they should all be independant —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.192.81.26 (talk • contribs) 19:22, 31 January 2006
I don't know why this has been considered for a merge? Frot is a completely separate and self-contained from whatever frotteurism is. It's a normal way for two men to have sex, and deserves its own entry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.84.15.83 (talk • contribs) 06:09, 11 February 2006
I think pretty much everyone is in agreement that there should be no merger here, I 'm going to remover the tags —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.192.81.26 (talk • contribs) 19:55, 11 February 2006

[edit] cite sources

This information seems very nice and probably accurate. Never the less, we do need to cite sources, even if the topic of this article is obviously valid and notable. This article is in no way threatened with deletion, I think, so I'm not really threatening it with that if sources aren't cited. So just leave the tag on until someone cites a source. Lotusduck 21:15, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Marmaduke

I've removed the following sentence: "In the popular comic strip 'Marmaduke', there have been many references that allude to the fact that Marmaduke is a frotteur." The idea of Marmaduke as a frotteur comes from Joe Mathlete's satirical blog "Marmaduke Explained", which lampoons the cartoon with irreverent and sarcastic explanations of what goes on in the cartoon panels. Marmaduke is, in my opinion, one of the most unfunny cartoons ever made and personally I find Mathlete's "explanations" to be infinitely more amusing than the cartoon itself, but it's still misleading to include the Marmaduke/frotteurism connection in this article. Jonas Liljeström 13:03, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merged with groping

I've merged in the stuff from the groping page which I've replaced with a redirect. This was basically the Japanese material. The groping page had already been tagged as not having a world view, which isn't too srprising as it was about frotteurism in Japan.--Simon Speed 10:44, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merging with Chikan (body contact) proposed

I am proposing merger of Chikan (body contact). Some reasons:

  • Wikipedia is not Wiktionary: We don't need an entry for every foreign language term on the same topic
  • Overlap: Although the Japanese term is more vaguely defined, it's referring to pretty much the same thing
  • Reasonable size of articles for merging: If you remove the overlap from the chikan article, there isn't much to say about Frotteurism in Japan besides a couple of high profile cases and the women-only trains. And the women-only train phenomenon has already been documented in this article and the Women-only passenger car article.

Most other language versions of Wikipedia don't have separate articles for these two. If there is no disagreement after waiting for comments, I will go ahead with the merge.
—Tokek 23:14, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Good idea, I've already merged in groping, but please try not to lose any interesting material. --Simon Speed 00:41, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. Merge-me-do. ShizuokaSensei 17:06, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Y Done. I also "merged" (as in "redirected") Chijo into the article, since it has no hope of ever becoming a proper article in its own right (and if that should unexpectedly change, it could be split off at any later point). I dorfbaer I talk I 17:01, January 2, 2008

[edit] Can Chikan and Chijo be re-declared as general Asian terms?

Just like overly crowded public transit systems is an Asian phenomenon in general and not just Japanese, so is frotteurism. Just as random examples (of "casual" frotteurism in a crowded subway), the South Korean film Sex Is Zero (2002) features this, and the Chinese film Pirated Copy (2004) even features a Chijo (assuming your answer to this question is positive). So is there a consensus to change the article to reflect that? Obviously it would still be mentioned that these words originated in Japan. -62.219.107.171 (talk) 21:36, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

  • Consensus was already reached to merge the articles, so no. The "chijo" article was not encyclopedic and I don't see how it could have been expanded. It's a slang term for a female pervert. Was the word "chikan" used explicitly in an English subtitle of these films, and were they being used only because the English word "frotteurism" is not as widely recognized? Frotteurism outside of asia would still be called "chikan" in Japanese because they mean the same thing. However, suppose temporarily the word "chikan" didn't even exist. Then do you see any necessity for a "Frotteurism in Asia" sub-article in the first place? I think this is really about two questions: 1, do we need a sub-article for frotteurism, and 2, should that article be titled "Chikan" (despite the fact that Japanese is not a common language spoken by all Asians). So far, I don't see how the examples that you provided can make an argument for overriding the consensus that was established previously. —Tokek (talk) 21:47, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Is that what this proposal is really about? The anonymous IP was suggesting that we "change this article"—not create a sub-article. If I understand correctly, I think they were merely criticising the Japan-centric slant of the existing article, which makes it appear as if frotteurism is solely a Japanese phenomenon among Asian countries. In fact, there is little discussion of frotteurism outside of Japan except for a brief mention of its classification and description by American psychologists. As it stands, the article misrepresents the issue by giving undue weight to its prevalence in Japan. clicketyclickyaketyyak 00:25, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Oops, you're right. Looks like I misinterpreted the IP. S/he didn't mention a sub-article creation proposal. I agree that "As it stands, the article misrepresents the issue by giving undue weight to its prevalence in Japan." Also, I looked into the word usage in Korea and China a little bit. In China, it's called "chihan" (痴汉) and in Korea, it's also called "chihan" (치한). Now I don't know enough about these languages to give the full context of these usages, but it's unsurprising given the fact that terms are frequently shared within the Sinosphere of countries. A reasonable degree of linguistic note could be added, while a more detailed note could go somewhere inside Wiktionary instead. Maybe the "re-declaring" was referring to an edit conflict where someone else "un-declared" it, I don't know. —Tokek (talk) 03:48, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
  • I suppose the re-declaring was a bit of sarcasm, remarking on Wiki having seemingly decided this is a strictly Japanese phenomenon, requiring reassertion that yes, indeed, Japan is not the only country with perverts (!) I agree with making a note about the word usage in Korea and China. I would also like to see sections on its occurrence in these countries, the punishment for it, and its impact on 'popular culture'. It would also be good to expand sections on the psychological background of it; perhaps statements could be found describing what determines its prevalence, etc. It's something of a gargantuan task and I'm not yet ready to begin on research right now, but if you are interested (and it is an interesting topic!) we could perhaps work together and slowly remove the implicit japanese-men-are-perverts bias. Wouldn't it be amusing to see this on the front page as an FA? Would be a nice change from all those dull history topics, yawn! clicketyclickyaketyyak 04:23, 10 May 2008 (UTC)