Talk:Francis Gary Powers

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Contents 1 Previous discussions without headers 2 Photo? 3 Why "Gary"? 4 Pound, VA vs. Jenkins, KY 5 Lee Harvey Oswald 6 Death 7 For lack of a better place to suggest this... 8 Thirteen Days 9 Self destruct mechanism 10 Espionage vs Reconnaisance?

[edit] Previous discussions without headers

It seems to me that the bulk of this article belongs as a separate article under the "U2 crisis", which is certainly much more significant and well-known than Gary Powers. Unless someone can convince me otherwise I'll move all but the first paragraph to that title soon. -R. fiend

OK, just noticed there already is an article called U-2 Crisis of 1960, which seems like an unecessarily verbose and hard to find heading. That article is not as complete as this one, and is practically an orphan. I'll move most of this article there and add a bunch of redirects and links to make it easier to find, if no one objects, or beats me to it. -R. fiend

Well, I object. (Not particularly strongly). As it stands, it should probably be considered a stub (surely we can fill more than 8 sentences on a person involved in such a notorious incident!), but it is meant to be a bio about the man involved in the incident; just one sentence of the eight refers to the U2 incident. The article U-2 Crisis of 1960 focusses, obviously enough, on the historical event, and does not include detailed biographical information (which is quite appropriate, IMHO). Also I am not sure what you meant by "That article is not as complete as this one", in fact it is much longer. While the main title of that article is probably somewhat prolix it is reached by redirects from U-2 Crisis, U-2 incident and "U2 Crisis", and far from being nearly an orphan, has nine inward links (including the redirects). I say leave it be (apart from adding more stuff on Powers). Securiger 08:37, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Oh, I see Patrick has already removed a lot of stuff to the crisis article. But I think probably too much; the already short and stub-like article now has far too little about the major incident in Powers' life, and the last sentence about 1960 is difficult to understand because it has been stripped of its context. I'm copying some back (not removing from the other article). I don't see any problem with the minor duplication, so long as both articles make sense. Securiger 08:50, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I don't like the reference to Lee Harvey Oswald as "the man reported to have shot" JFK. Whether the conspiracy theorists like it or not, Oswald is the official and only known gunman. Whether or not the evidence against Oswald would have convicted him in a court of law is not material here. The point is that all theories, speculation and downright irresponsible allegations have still not produced overwhelming evidence to discredit the official finding of Lee Harvey Oswald as the one man who definitely shot President Kennedy. --[USER: leonwatch]

Ok, it looks like alot of major work has been done on both articles, and while I haven't read them carefully yet, I think I'm pretty satisfied. You're right, there was alot of biographical information that belonged just in this article, and it should stay here. My original complaint was that it seemed there wasnt an article on the crisis at all, or at least I couldn't find one until I noticed the link at the bottom. There I found a short paragraph with almost nothing linking to it, so I made a bunch of links and redirects and I guess someone added substantially to the content. I actually didn't want to have to do it because I'm no expert. Glad it was addressed so quickly. -R. fiend

[edit] Photo?

We should probably have a photo of Gary here, rather than a picture of a U2 model. Anyone have one? Djbrianuk 10:23, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I found one on the National Air and Space Museum website. Willy Logan 02:36, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Why "Gary"?

Does anybody know why people have always referred to him as Gary Powers? According to people who knew him, he was always called Frank, both within his family and within the piloting community.

I heard that one too - he apparently didn't like "Gary" and preferred "Frank".

His family (mom, dad, sisters) called him Francis. His colleagues called him Frank, which he preferred. His first wife called him Gary, which is what the press picked up on

I beleive the title should be his full name Francis Gary Powers —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gpowersjr (talk • contribs) 14:09, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pound, VA vs. Jenkins, KY

I think there is a mistake. Gary Powers was born in Jenkins, KY and grew up in Pound, VA. There is lots of evidence of this upon even cursory search, including the CIA Bio document, that clearly lists Jenkins, KY as his birthplace. I'll change the article accordingly. --Mr. Icon 02:43, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Jenkins, KY is the city he was born in. He graduated from Grundy High School in 1946. His parents lived in Harmon, KY, Jenkins, KY, Grundy, VA, and Pound, VA. His five sisters are still alive. Two of his sisters still live in Pound. one in Wise, VA, one in Utah, and one in MD. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gpowersjr (talk • contribs) 14:15, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lee Harvey Oswald

There is no evidence of his involvement in U-2 spy missions, plus the addition in the article was factually incorrect (Korea vs. Japan). I have removed any references to Lee Harvey Oswald completely, since they didn't seem to warrant a "reference needed" tag.

There is one connection that should be noted. Lee Harvey Oswald was stationed at Osaka, Japan as a radar operator. This is one of the bases where U-2's flew out of. Powers' in his book, Operation Overflight, talks about the Oswald connection.

[edit] Death

The crash of his helicopter was apparently caused by a malfunctioning fuel gauge which had been repaired without his knowledge. This is rather delphic. What was the relationship between the gauge being repaired and the helicopter crashing? Henry^Flower 20:06, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• I agree with Henry. If the fuel gauge had been "repaired", then why did it malfunction? Did the writer of these mean a "faulty" fuel gauge or perhaps even a fuel gauge which had been "improperly repaired without Powers' knowledge"? Wolfdog 01:17, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I guess the text meant "modified" without his knowledge, or just modified for the worse. Tourskin 00:51, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the sentence about the fuel gauge for now. FiggyBee 03:55, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Okay, here's how I understand it:

• The helicopter crashed during an attempted autorotation landing after running out of fuel.
• According to Gary Powers Jr in Stars and Stripes, the fuel gauge had recently been repaired without his father's knowledge. [1] He "assume[d] that when reading empty, he still had 20 more minutes of flying time".
• The official probable cause given by the NTSB was fuel starvation due to pilot mismanagement. [2]

I don't think we can legitimately say that the fuel gauge was the cause of the accident. It's not even mentioned as a factor in the NTSB report, and IMO a "meticulously careful pilot" does not rely on fuel gauges in a small aircraft, much less on fuel gauges he believes to be inaccurate. FiggyBee 04:18, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] For lack of a better place to suggest this...

Might be worth a reference here or under the U2 crisis page: [3]

The U-2 Song by Howard Shapiro (a Harvard student at the time)

(Only the 4th line of the chorus varies)

Have you heard of a plane called the Lockheed U-2 Flown o'er flags of all red, and not red, white, and blue? She flew the Stars and Stripes of the land of the free And gave the other side a propaganda victory.

CHORUS: Oh, it just can't be true, no, it just can't be true -- Can we have a spy on that Lockheed U-2? It just can't be true, no, it just can't be true -- If they do it, we might as well do it too.

It was over Sverdlovsk on the first day of May, With the summit in Paris a few weeks away. U-2 flew and she fell, and she fell to the ground -- Pictures, pilot, and paraphernalia were found.

CHORUS... ...We're caught with the goods; now what are we to do?

Ike was there in the dark, and he said that the flight Might be legally wrong, but was morally right. First the rocket's red glare, then the red leader's roar Brought the U-2 to that hot Senate floor.

CHORUS... ...But Ike lost a friend thru that Lockheed U-2.

Soon our Midas's camera will soar to the heights, And we'll do without Lockheed U-2s and their flights. When the satellite's up, there'll be no need to spy: There's an eye in the sky in the sweet bye and bye.

CHORUS... ...But Ike lost a friend thru that Lockheed U-2.

So the summit was torpedoed like the good Reuben James, While heads of state sulked and called each other names. What of Francis G. Powers, the man at the hub? He's now camera instructor at the Moscow Glider Club.

CHORUS... ...If we do it, they might as well do it too.

They gave Powers ten years in the Soviet court. We said it was too long, they said it was too short. Nathan Hale might regret he'd but one life to give -- Said Powers, "I'm sorry, I just wanna live".

CHORUS... ...So they sent him to jail, and they sent up the zoo.

mr_Handy 08:52, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thirteen Days

"*Francis Gary had a scene in the film Thirteen Days when his U-2 was shotdown."

I taken out the above line under Cultural References because this is wrong. The U-2 incident in the movie Thirteen Days was over Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis of 1962. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ryanyomomma (talk • contribs) 00:07, 9 May 2007 (UTC).

ryanyomomma 20:07, 08 May 2007 (EST)

[edit] Self destruct mechanism

Is there any reason why he didn't hit the self-destruct mechanism to get rid of the evidence? Sarsaparilla (talk) 02:14, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

By my reading of the CIA documents, he attempted to activate the mechanism before ejecting but wasn't able to, as he was concussed and the plane was at that point spinning out of control. FiggyBee (talk) 07:11, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Espionage vs Reconnaisance?

Is it factually correct to call Capt. Powers' misson a "spy mission"? Specifically, is it known whether his U-2 had Air Force markings, and whether he was in uniform at the time of his capture?

Bccpdx (talk) 00:39, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Prior to 1962, the U2 was operated by the CIA, not the USAF. As the Lockheed U2 article says, "Due to the political implications of a military aircraft invading a country's airspace, only CIA U-2s conducted overflights. The pilots had to resign their military commissions before joining the CIA as civilians, a process they referred to as "sheep dipping."" This is why Powers was consistently referred to in documents and communications at the time just by name and not by rank. The aircraft didn't carry USAF markings; in fact, before the Russians revealed Powers was alive, the US tried to claim the flight had been a NASA weather aircraft that had gone off-course. FiggyBee (talk) 01:47, 14 February 2008 (UTC)