Talk:Food/archive

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Contents 1 Protection 2 Food definition 3 Aquaculture / Mariculture 4 Seafood 5 Game 6 Cereal 7 History of food 8 Creationists vs Evolutionists 9 Cannibalism 10 USDA information, from Main Page 11 Alternative Medicine 12 Eating utensils 13 Food topics 14 Food Allergy and Sensitivities? 15 Food manufacture 16 I hate this and I hate that ... fat people eat lots 17 Food groups - interesting omission 18 how much food? 19 Languages? 20 Portal:Food peer review 21 Pedantic 22 Problems with the definition of Food Science 23 Removed { { cookbook } } tag 24 Readded the page... 25 Wiki Cookbook 26 Food Network 27 Vandalism 28 Good article 29 where is Food Product

[edit] Protection

Hey guys, unprotect this article please! (yes i have put a request on the requests for unprotection list) Arghlookamonkey 22:20, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Food definition

Although the definition of nutrition may be in need of refinement, water cannot (as David states) be a food if it provides neither energy nor nutrition (or the definition of food in the article is wrong) - Marshman 00:32, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

This is the intuitive view, which I understand. However, in the UK, this is not the case. The definition of food is contained in Section 1 of the Food Safety Act 1990 [1] and this includes matters consumed which have alot nutritional value,chewing gum, preservatives and flavorings which have no nutrtional value such as water.

Likewise EU Law [2] specifically includes foods. Article 2 of Regulation 178/2002 specifically states ...

"For the purposes of this Regulation, "food" (or "foodstuff") means any substance or product, whether processed, partially processed or unprocessed, intended to be, or reasonably expected to be ingested by humans. "Food" includes drink, chewing gum and any substance, including water, intentionally incorporated into the food during its manufacture, preparation or treatment. "

It might be different outside Europe, but here it definately includes water chewing gum and other such like things which we consume.

I plan to leave this a few days so that others can contribute to the helpful debate, and then I will change the food article to include something on the legal definition of food. This will be based on the European position (as that is what I know), unless someone can contribute the URL's for the legal definition of food made by Governments or Religious edicts elsewhere in the world. I don't think that WHO has a definition for food (at least I couldn't find it on their website). I'm not sure about the US or the World Trade Organization. It would be great if contributors could put links to these things here so I can incorporate this in the changes I plan to make to the food article. Thanks David Thrale 11:25, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

This is great. I was not arguing that water was NOT food, but that the definition in the article seemed to exclude it. Putting in (several) official definitions will really improve the article - Marshman 17:02, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Minor precisification of first paragraph. (1) A food can be substance but not an object: a wheel of cheese is an object, and is food. Cheese is also food, though it is not an object, in any normal sense, but a kind. (2) Only what is normally eaten ought to be called food. There are, for example, people who eat glass and metal for entertainment, etc. It is not therefore food.

As the legal definition reference to substance rather than object fits in with the above comment, I have changed description to just say substance. The metal/glass eating example is so rare that it is perhaps not worth worrying about? David Thrale 22:51, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

"Normally" eaten seems like a reasonable addition - Marshman 22:53, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

This is a small point and I do not want to make a big issue of it. However, the problem that always arises from the word 'normally' is - normal to who? Presumably eating glass is normal to a troope of circus act performers who specialise in eating glass? Seriously though, clearly glass is not food, either in the common sense application of the word and the legal sense of the word. My view is that people know that glass isn't food whether the word normal is added to the definition or not. However, adding the word 'normally' may lead people of one culture to disregard foods which they do not normally eat which is normally consumed by another culture without being well known across cultures. Therefore I think its inclusion is POV and adds nothing to knowledge from the article. Why don't we leave it for the time being and later think about finding another way to distinguish glass from other real foods with no nutritional value if there are any other objections to the use of this word? David Thrale 07:54, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

I dislike the definition of food - it should contain a purposive element, IMO. How about: "Food - any substance that may be subsumed into an organism in order to provide the ingredients necessary for carrying out the life processes of that organism." Food may be consumed for other reasons (e.g. taste, politeness), but it is only food if it satifies the primary purposive consideration. This definition excludes chewing gum and glass, but includes water. It also applies to plant 'food', amongst other things.

The current definition is widely accepted and enshrined in law. I guess that there are many foods that are consumed which have ingedients that are not necessary for carrying out the life processes of that organism, e.g. alcohol! David Thrale 23:23, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Aside from arguing that alcohol most certainly isn't a food - it's a drug - I'd say that the definition very carefully does not specify that food is that which *is* consumed for the purpose etc., but that which *may be* consumed to satisfy the requirements of the body. I can't really comment on the legal definition - I was mostly referring to the informal definition at the top of the article: "Food is any substance normally eaten or drunk by living organisms. The term food also includes liquid drinks. Food is the main source of energy and of nutrition for animals, and is usually of animal or plant origin." I don't like my phrasing too much, though - far too formal...j-o-s-h

[edit] Aquaculture / Mariculture

Apiculture is part of agriculture. But are mariculture and aquaculture actually different. I have never seen mariculture before. Is mariculture harvesting algae and seaweed, aquaculture farming fish and fisheries catching wild fish? -rmhermen

I threw in some of these terms hoping someone can write about them. I heard that all cat fishes sold in California are product of aquaculture. I heard that the Japanese are doing mariculture by preying on the fish's behavior. They raise the fishes in open sea, and they sound a signal before feeding the young fishes to establish a behavior conditioning. The fishes wander off to the open sea and grow up on their own, at the right season when the fishes come back to their birth place, the fishermen simply sound a bell and collect the harvest. I guess aquaculture and mariculture are quiet different in term of operation, e.g. fresh water ponds vs open sea etc. I guess culture pearl production can be consider mariculture though no food product is produced.

Yes, there certainly is such a word. Mariculture is the culture of marine organisms like seaweeds and lobsters and oysters, etc.: ponds that circulate sea water (very big in Hawaii) or cages set up in the open sea (big in parts of Asia). While the story about the fish and ringing the bells sounds good, I have my doubts that it is true. - Marshman 03:29, 6 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Seafood

David, the article on seafood (which could be wrong, of course, although I've never considered that algae would be "seafood", but why not) says plants from the sea are NOT included in the definition - Marshman 16:52, 23 May 2004 (UTC)

Marshman, You are right, I have moved it into the animal section. I have used my research on seafood to improve the seafood article as well. Thanks for the pointer 195.137.76.252 09:47, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Game

It may not be widely eaten in urban western society - but it is eaten and hunted for food and has been for centuries. Therefore I have restored this deleted category twice. It was deleted by 216.68.191.107 and 216.68.188.76. If you want to delete this category, can you join the debate and explain why this isn't food or a category of food worthy of mention? David Thrale 11:16, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC

Wild game IS eaten widely in western society indeed a know quite a few people who only eat vegetarian food or game, since they object to the farming of animals. Oh and the commonest forms of game are game birds: pheasant, pidgeon, patridge so we need to decide what to do versus poultry--BozMo|talk 15:47, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

It seems to me that the problem is that game means different things in different countries. In the UK game is defined by the archaic Game Act of 1832 "Game" is defined as including hares, pheasants, partridges, grouse, heath or moor game and black game". Deer is not included in the definition, but is covered by the controls provided for in the Game Act.

I believe in the US / Canada it includes large mammmals like bears and moose. In Africa I think it includes things like Wildebeest, zebra etc Swaziland defination. It may even include Kangaroos, Crocs or alligators in Australia?!

It seems that we can't universally categorise game by type, e.g. small mammal or bird, etc. I think that instead, we should revert to the dictionary defination of "animal hunted for food or sport". This does seem to encompass all the animals mentioned and does accurately represent my understanding of the word. It certainly distinguishes this food from food that is farmed. Although there may be some grey areas (My local supermarket now sells pheasant!)

If so, we can use such an approach to clarify the information in the Food article. Then it seems that other wikipedia articles will need similar clarification. Wiki articles I found include Large game and Gamebird and Bushmeat some descriptive text on Game (disambiguation). We could probably have a single article with section for each part of the world, and redirect all the other artcicles at this new article. What say others?

New article Game (food) created David Thrale 11:43, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Game animals are those which are hunted for sport or food, it is true, but in the context of foodstuffs it is not necessary that they *have* been hunted for them to be game. A dead pheasant remains game regardless of how it dies. The common link that perhaps serves as the best pointer towards a serviceable definition is that game animals can't easily be farmed - they tend to be fast moving, active animals. Compare deer and cows, pheasants and chickens. (This is not strictly accurate, since tame turkeys are classed as poultry whilst wild ones are game). Perhaps it is more accurate to say that the flavour described as 'gamey' comes from the so-called 'slow-twitch' muscle fibres - those which are used for extended exertion. This compares to the 'fast-twitch' muscle fibres used for short, intense exertion. (This is essentially the same difference as between 'dark' and 'white' meat on a single turkey.) Game animals are those in which the lifestyle encourages development of slow-twitch musculature, this lifestyle usually being incompatible with farming.

Some traditionally game animals are now begiming to be farmed. Maybe the definition could be adjusted to allow animals that are traditionally game but are now farmed to be included? At college, I was taught that the term "Gamey" arises from the very strong flavour that arises from the extended hanging period between the death and evisceration. Detractors view this as partial decomposition, whereas supporters use the term "Gamey". I don't recall anything about slow or fast twitch. David Thrale 23:23, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The gamey flavour seems to develop more if the meat is hung, but it is still very present in freshly killed game, IME. I'm not in favour of including farmed 'game' in the same category. There's no comparison betweent he wild and farmed variants of the same animal. There can't be - it's the active lifestyle which gives game the flavour, and you can't get that in farm conditions. Or possibly it's the taste of freedom ;p Fast and slow twitch accounts for white/dark meat having a different flavour - effectively one is more concentrated protein than the other, IIRC. Proteins all taste pretty similar, though. See umami. J-o-s-h

[edit] Cereal

Is sugarcane really a cereal? It is a kind of grass, but we eat the stalks instead of the grain. - Burschik

I suggest that we change the text to ...

• Grasses, including barley, Cereals, corn or maize, oats, rice, rye, sugarcane, wheat

What do you think? David Thrale 00:34, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] History of food

Diet of Homo habilus/erectus/neanderthalis/etc/sapiens. Impact of totalitarian agriculture -- food as property, the introduction of farmed animals, and the evolution of lactose tolerance. Diet of early civilizations; invention of beer and bread. Famines throughout civilization, from the Romans to the Irish and the Ethiopeans. Effect of exploration in introducing new foods, e.g. tomato, chocolate, rice. Difficulties in food preservation. Invention of refrigeration: effect on meat consumption and confectionery. Invention of restaurants, catering, processed food, tinned food, fast food. Improved nutrition throughout history. Decreasing time available for food preparation, and increasing obesity in developed countries.

-- Mpt 16:38 15 Jun 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Creationists vs Evolutionists

I'm of the opinion that the subsections on "Creationists" and "Evolutionists" are not really helpful. The first just gives the chronologically early mentioning of "food" in the bible (Adam & Eve and the "apple" is rather clearly a metaphore, not having to do with food) and the Evolutionists segment is an oversimplification of the subject, and probably not really correct (what evolutionist believes the distribution of ancient man resulted only from wandering around looking for stuff to eat during an ice age?) Populations of all animals and plants disperse, and all organisms need "food", but hunger is not the only cause of expansion in all species in the sense of a driving force (for locusts, maybe it is, but that is part of a "normal" migration pattern). I especially object to the dichotomous presentation, because I object to the idea that learning is a process of reading more about "what you believe". - Marshman 17:32, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)

With the exception of the last sentence, which goes against the NPOV principle, I agree. All this stuff was on the food page before i started work on it. I just sectionised it and improved the explanation where I could. I'd like to delete this as well. I suggest that we leave this until the end of March and if no-one puts a counter view, delete this stuff in early April. David Thrale 11:25, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I concur with that approach - Marshman 19:27, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Thanks Andrew Levine. It was silly and needed removal - Marshman 04:05, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Cannibalism

I put Cannibalism in a seperate category on the food page, as human flesh is not a plant source and, according to the wikipedia definition of animal, not an animal source. An unregistered user has moved Cannibalism back into animal source. What do others think? (including that person if they see this entry? David Thrale 13:01, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Hi David, While I am not the unregistered user who moved Cannibalism from a Human category back into Animal source, I did move (and change the designation) from Cannibalism -> Meat (human), as I felt it was more in line with the way the list was formed. I was not aware of this discussion. But still firmly believe that the human is an animal (colloquially or not, as Wikipedia points out), and it is one type among many other animal sources for meat. After all, if one look at Wikipedia's definition of human, it would be hard to not draw the conclusion that we are "animals". Sfdan 18:49, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I think it is important to point out that current anthropological theorists don't beleive cannibalisim as a major food component has ever existed among humans. Ritualistic cannibalisim and cannibalisim out of nessecity donnor party are a different story. ZPS102 01:44, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the above statements, i have seen and read many a documentary and book about cannibalism and not one seems to show that human flesh is a primary source of food. One of the few tribes that practice cannibalism eat their dead as a sign of love and respect, their main source of meat is the wild pigs and boars that inhabit the forests around their villages

[edit] USDA information, from Main Page

A user commenting on the Talk:Main Page asked whether the (comprehensive, PD) USDA info for each food couldn't be included in its article template. Is there a Food wikiproject?

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR16-1/sr16-1.html

+sj+ 08:24, 2004 May 22 (UTC)

i think it should be included with the food article

[edit] Alternative Medicine

Calling this general food article part of the Alt Med group is a strectch. Having a reference to alternative medicine is a stretch as well, but I can see it barely. However, the TinyCam link and other links in Alt Med land being organized by MrNaturalHealth are in flux. If they change the CamTiny link could change the apprearance markedly. A simple link to Alternative Medicine is the most appropriate. Kd4ttc 20:08, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

You are not God. Just thought that you might want to know. You do not own this article. Your opinion, is exactly that: Yours! -- John Gohde 20:14, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I agree with Kd4ttc-- "food" generically doesn't seem to have much to do with alternative medicine. Marnanel 00:16, 6 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I also agree. If food is "alt medicine" then so is clean air. Having everything one needs to live under Category:Alternative medicine sort of ruins the category for searching purposes. Really Kd4ttc was helping make the category better by questioning the appropriateness of marginal inclusions. That makes him a good editor (perhaps equivalent to God?) - Marshman 03:24, 6 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Thank you. I agree that it is my opinion. With time we will see how widely the opinion is shared. What is your opinion? What got you so annoyed? Kd4ttc 22:39, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Any link to alt med will through Nutrition. There is an article on that with some disccusions on health id alt med goes anywhere it goes there (probably in the holistic section but There are other places it could go.Geni 11:42, 6 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Eating utensils

I wonder if we should split off Eating utensils into a page of its own. We could discuss there how eating has changed; and an overview of different cultures' way of eating. And also mention chimps using sticks to eat termites... -- Tarquin 13:04 Apr 19, 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Food topics

I think we could use something like List of food related topics. (I'm not up to starting such today). Thoughts? -- Infrogmation 17:59 Apr 21, 2003 (UTC)

Related links, sort by: composition, process, effect. Possibly. Meals, utensils etc. should be pushed into their own articles.

Agreed, i reciently have seen an exhibit primarily about eating utensils. It was quite interesting and i believe someone could make a rather nice article of it.

[edit] Food Allergy and Sensitivities?

I am a total beginner, so please forgive ignorance. My question is what, where and how should food allergy and sensitivity be covered? I think there should at least be a general article here. This is one of those relatively rare problems for which individuals need to become more expert than their doctors, and the information needed is hard to find. There are pockets of info on the web, but much good could be done by collecting and systemizing a fair bit of it here.

My idea of top level article would be something like this....

Some people have allergies or sensitivities to foods which are wholesome to others. Allergies and sensitivities may present differently, but both are immune system responses in which the body reacts negatively to the food. These reactions affect one or more organ systems, such as the skin (e.g. hives), the gut (e.g. vomiting), lungs (e.g. breathing problems) or the circulatory or nervous systems (e.g. headache). The problematic reactions range in severity from nuisance to life threatening depending on the sensitivity of the individual and the amount of exposure. The amount of the food substance required to provoke a reaction in a highly sensitivie individual can be extremely minute. For instance, tiny amounts of food in the air, too minute to be smelled, have been known to provoke lethal reactions in sufficiently sensitive individuals. In theory, any food may provoke a reaction. The foods most commonly reported as problematic include gluten, corn (zea maiz), shellfish (mollusks), peanuts, and soy....

Multiple theories attempt to explain how individuals become allergic or sensitive to foods. Some amount of susceptibility appears to be genetic. But there are undoubtedly multiple mechanisims at work...

Thanks.

Thanks for the contribution. I have created a new section in the food article, using much of your work. Do have a look, and edit to improve! David Thrale 08:14, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Food manufacture

"Food manufacturing, or food processing, arose during the industrialisation era in the 19th century"

This is simply wrong, at least as far as I understand the term 'food processing'. Food processing extends back many millennia - man has been salting, drying, smoking, or otherwise preserving food for as long as there has been an excess. Since cheese and bread are included in the list of processed foodstuffs, it seems that the intent is not to restrict the definition to industrial processing of food, but perhaps it should be.

I agree, I will try to change this explanation for the better David Thrale 23:23, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] I hate this and I hate that ... fat people eat lots

Is there an article for the personal dislike of certain foods? For example, I hate eggplants, bananas and pumpkins. If I were the President (of whatever country), I'll nuke all eggplant fields, jail and torture all banana farmers and send taxman to all restaurants that serves pumpkins. It's my own policy. And it's supposed to be the National Policy. -- Toytoy July 7, 2005 04:50 (UTC)

Very unlikely, far too POV. Haoie 10:25, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

I like junk food, but please distroy the oat meal cereal crap. Tastes might be individual, but there must be some science behind it. Like about tastebuds or something. Maybe a psycology page... jess523s 20:40 (PST)

[edit] Food groups - interesting omission

It is interesting to see the absence of an article or even a passing mention of "food groups" in this or most other articles (a lonely standout is the Food guide pyramid article). I know that the term is not much in favor in the United States (and perhaps other places) right now, but it was a major part of nutritional advice prior to the advent of the pyramid notion. If I were prepared to address the omission myself, I would do so, but I thought that someone with keen interest in nutrition and history might wish to take that on. Regards, Courtland 01:19, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] how much food?

How much food does the average adult human eat? what about certain animals? Don't birds eat like 20 times there weight or something?

[edit] Languages?

I can't believe such a topic would be written in only two languages. Food's more important to our daily lives than almost everything else!

Added link to Hebrew wiki Avi 21:20, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Jeez you're fast. BirdValiant 21:23, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Thank you :) Avi 22:46, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

In the foreign language pages linked to from Food, most of the English-language links lead back to Meal. I think we need a fluent speaker of the other languages to check if we are incorrectly linking English-languge Food to foreign-language meal or they are incorrectly linking foreign-language food to English-language Meal. Avi 22:46, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Portal:Food peer review

Interested in food? Then help to peer review Portal:Food --TBC^{??? ??? ???} 05:03, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pedantic

I hate to be pedantic here but

"Food is any substance that can be consumed for nutritional value and to provide extra energy."

Doesn't it just provide 'energy'? Rather that "extra energy"? Otherwise where is the initial energy coming from, because the sentence implies that our primary energy does not come from food. Supposed 16:16, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, does food have to be 'consumed'? It could be fed to people introveniously in which case is this really consumption?

Supposed 16:16, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

you got a point there man. -- Anonymous

[edit] Problems with the definition of Food Science

(Food portal) I take issue with the use of the word "consumed" on Portal:Food. Any product bought by a consumer is "consumed". If I "consume" a car or palm pilot, does that mean I eat it? Paul King 21:52, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

(Food Science) I also think Heldeman's quote, or some form of it, should be the definition. Why bury it down at the bottom? The definition at the start is too "technology-sounding". Food Science really is a science, unlike "political science" or something else with science at the end of the topic name. Food Technology is just one branch of food science. Food science is a hybrid of actual science (albeit applied) (the study of food and its properties), and engineering (the improvement of foods for safety, better nutrition and low cost). There doesn't seem to be a way to edit this page. What do I do? Paul King 22:03, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Isn't there a more sophisticated name for Food Science?(as in "Botany" instaed of "Plant Science")--Whytecypress

[edit] Removed { { cookbook } } tag

I removed the tag, for two reasons. First of all, it produced the highly silly message, "Wikibooks Cookbook has a recipe for Food". Secondly, it led to a broken link anyway. Apparently wikibooks cookbook does not have a recipe for "Food". What a shame, that sounded tasty. --Xyzzyplugh 00:25, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Readded the page...

The page was completely blank, so I restored it to what it was prior to the last edit. Hope that was right. 147.240.236.9 15:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)Roy

[edit] Wiki Cookbook

I would just like to say, I think it would be a good idea to have a Wikipedia recipe book. Contact me if you think it's a good idea. Asteroidz R not planetz 19:29, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Take a look at the Wikibooks Cookbook. --Macrakis 22:14, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Food Network

Why the Advert for the Food Network? (This mean nothing in the UK either) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.111.169.120 (talk • contribs) 21:17, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

The link at the top of the page isn't an advertisement; it is there to redirect users who are looking for the article on the TV network called "Food". - Eron 19:51, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

Someone needs to take out the line "or who eats all the time" from the "Dietary Habits" section. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.67.142.56 (talk • contribs) 15:29, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Done, thanks for pointing that out. - Eron 19:51, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

This page needs to be locked. There's way too much vandalism that's been going on recently. I've already reverted the page twice now.

Twice? Twice?

Lazy. It needs clearing up, not locking.Arghlookamonkey 22:20, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Good article

I think this article is rather good. I would pass it if you were to nom it. --I'll bring the food (Talk - Contribs - My Watchlist) 22:20, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] where is Food Product

I searched for food product and was redirected to food. Why is this? Food as a product is a phenomena of industrial and/or modern consumer society, generally something packaged, perhaps processed. While food is a general term of things consumed for sustanance. There should be two different entries as not everyone today or throughout history as eaten "food products". 67.53.78.15 11:13, 2 Feb 2007 (UTC)

• Either because someone thought there wasn't enough information for a separate article or because someone thought it would be enough to cover this in the food article. Food Product would be a wrong title anyway. The P shouldn't be capitalized. You probably want to read Wikipedia:Redirect to get an idea when things are redirected. - Mgm| ^(talk) 10:18, 27 February 2007 (UTC)