Talk:Florida State University/Archive 2

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Contents

[edit] Article

Hi all - I've been watching this article for a while now, and have a few suggestions. It seems as though the article has far too much info in it - it seems as though the history section and the departmental sections deserve their own pages at this point. It just seems as though that the article's contents are far to specific for the main article. Second, and this is just a personal opinion (and I know ascetics aren't that important for an encyclopedia), but the article is kinda drab - all the black and white pictures right up front - its kinda ugly. A few current pictures of the University could punch it up a bit. Just a few thoughts! Hps05

  • Thanks for the feedback. We just lost a lot of great color pix due to the apparently very strict Wikipedia copyright policy on graphics. I'm looking for replacements and the historic pix are really meant as filler at this time. The article could possibly be split into separate pages; there's a lot more history and graphics that could be added to such a section. Each college could also have a lot more detail; but all things come in time.Sirberus 13:09, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
    • Thanks for the feedback but I rather like the new photos (and those that were erased were mine). I don't see the article as too long. The point of an encyclopedia is to impart as much pertinent information as possible and we have a very organized table of contents for easy navigation. Also, the article has recently been trimmed considerably. Mike850 19:13, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] National High Magnetic Field Laboratory (NHMFL)

There is a mini edit-war going on in the Physics section concerning whether the Physics Department "operates," "manages" or simply "contributes to" the NHMFL. It seems that users who are affiliated with FSU Physics favour the former two terms, whereas users presumably from (an)other department(s) favour the latter. In fact, the FSU Physics Department does indirectly manage the lab: the NHMFL Director, his predecessor, and the recently-emeritus Chief Scientist, JR Schrieffer, are all senior FSU physics faculty. The chances of anyone from another discipline heading the Lab are slim. Additionally, most of the Lab's own staff scientists are physicists. Therefore, any attempt to suggest that FSU physics merely 'contributes' to the main Maglab campus is incorrect: although multidisciplinary, the NHMFL is primarily a physics lab. On the other hand, care should be taken not to remove the qualifying statements about the multidisciplinary nature of the Lab or its operation being "through the Director, who is Physics faculty". (I'm not a Maglab user, by the way.) C60 07:45, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

  • Thanks for the input. We need some clarity in this section. I have been told that the Mag Lab is not "managed" by the College of A&S Dept. of Physics. Obviously, there must be extremely close associations. However, it appears that NHMFL prefers not to be subordinate to only one department for perhaps political reasons stemming from the multidisciplinary utility of the lab.Sirberus 09:50, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
    • Yeah - it's a thorny issue. Although the Physics Department is the biggest Maglab player, this is an academically-politically sensitive issue. The non-physics users of the Lab don't want to be marginalised (as can often happen at national labs) - and I can hardly blame them. On the other hand, FSU physics people understandably want their unique contribution to the Maglab to be known. "Operates" is probably the best term: "manages" implies a monopoly and "contributes to" implies too loose an association. On another note, to be quite honest, it's nice to have this issue come up in the first place: it shows that there are actually some people editing this article that care about something to do with, you know, academics, as opposed to sport or froth-mouthed rivalry with UF ;) C60 00:43, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
      • Thanks for noticing. I for one have been working in that direction for some time, trying to eliminate nonsense and boosterism and tell a pretty interesting story about a fine state university.Sirberus 21:22, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Obsession With Football

I've noticed an extensive amount of mentions of football in the historical parts of the article. FSU is not just about football and any mention of athletics should stay under the athletics section.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by A s williams (talk • contribs) 20:41, 25 June 2007 (UTC).

  • I agree. Football does need to go to the athletics section.Sirberus 21:02, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Added some color

I changed the infobox to show some school spirit, I saved the old box in my sandbox if you want me to I can return it to its old bland self.


oops forgot to sign FSU Guy 15:23, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes to the Color: I think it makes the entry stand out from other universities without looking outlandish. Others will probably follow our lead. Mike850 15:46, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes to the Color Looks good to me. Sirberus 00:22, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes to the Color As a Gator fan, I am going to totally rip off the concept for the UF page. Looks very nice. A.S. Williams 01:44, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Maybe to the ColorNo to the color I am still trying to get used to it. It is cool and all but what is encyclopedic function? That being said, can you make it in to an easy to use template so others can use? --Jerm (Talk/ Contrib) 15:52, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

  • I'll see what I can do. I've never made a template before but I'll give it a shot sometime this weekend, little busy at the moment. FSU Guy 18:30, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
    • Alright I got a chance to mess with the template here is what I have so far: Enter this on you page
    • Replace each spot with the proper information and your set. For color 1 and color 2 put in either a number style, ie #990000 for fsu garnet #f1c058 for gold, or name , ie green. This will set the colors of the box. The rest of the info fill in with whatever you want. I'm working on a generic template, and maybe something a little easier to use, I'll get back to you when I figure that out. In the mean time back to work.
    • Here is an example with alternate colors and picture FSU Guy 21:01, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Title
Moto: Moto
Established: Established
Type: Type
Endowment: Endowment
President: President
Faculty: Faculty
Staff: Staff
Students: Students
Undergraduates: Undergraduates
Postgraduates: Postgraduates
Location: Location
Campus: Campus
Colors: Colors
Nickname: Nickname
Website: website

[edit] Good Article Candidate

I am currently reviewing the article for GA status. I may make minor copy edits to the article as I go. I may also insert flags such as {{Fact}} as needed. I will provide an update this weekend. Majoreditor 16:50, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Good article nomination on hold

This article's Good Article promotion has been put on hold by Majoreditor 03:32, 30 June 2007 (UTC). During review, some issues were discovered that can be resolved without a major re-write. This is how the article, as of 29 June 2007, compares against the six good article criteria:

1. Well written?: Needs work. Some items don't conform to WP:MOS. Moreover, the style needs work. Please see my comments below.

2. Factually accurate?: Almost all sections are well cited. >The only exception is the section on Seminoles football; it needs proper in-line citations. I still need to check a few more items and may have additional comments and fact tags to add.

3. Broad in coverage?: Yes.

4. Neutral point of view?: Yes.

5. Article stability? Stable

6. Images?: Please add photo caption for image:mf1006.gif (E. Imre Friedman). I still need to confirm tags on a few more images. Also, please check the WFSU logo to ensure that it has a Fair Use rationale.


Overall assessment: This article can pass GA review with some minor editing work.

Specific issues:

  • Expand lead
  • (Also worked on lead parenthetical statements). Pls advise if references needed for added material.Sirberus 15:54, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Done.Sirberus 02:06, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Minimize use of the passive voice. Sections of the article are quite clunky due to PV.
Please advise if this element is still uncorrected.

Sirberus 02:06, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

  • Minimize use of parenthetical statements (like this phrase.) They, too, are clunky. You won't find many in Wikipedia's best composed articles.
  • Eliminated several, if some seem illuminated to you please point them out. Sirberus 03:43, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
  • I eliminated some more; the issue is resolved. Majoreditor 04:35, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Certain sections, including Past Presidents, Notable Faculty, Notable Alumni and Notable Alumni Athletes, need to include text rather than just a list or a link to another article. Craft a couple of paragraphs for each section.
  • Done.Sirberus 02:06, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Further reading: this section should list books in addition to web sites. A quick Google search will produce several good candidates.
  • Done.Sirberus 02:06, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Seminoles football in-line citations, per comments above.
  • where?Sirberus 15:54, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
  • I've added two tags. It should be easy to find references and add in-line citations. Majoreditor 01:37, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Done.Sirberus 03:43, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Added two more. That should be all. Majoreditor 04:38, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Done.Sirberus 16:51, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
  • One photo lacks a caption and another may need Fair Use Rationale, per comments above
  • Done.Sirberus 16:17, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Move the link to Seminoles FSU Tribute.
  • Move it to where?Sirberus 15:54, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
  • I moved it to further reading/external links. Majoreditor 01:30, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Consider creating additional branch articles. Just a suggestion
  • More to come; plus fuller development of those out there now.Sirberus 15:54, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
  • The more work I do on this reveals additional sources of information that could be developed and added. I'm not satisfied with the article as-is but am glad it is starting to meet higher standards. Once complete, it should serve as a solid basis for additional work and information. Branching will be necessary.Sirberus 13:45, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

That's all for now. I will probably add a few more comments later.

Overall, a good job. You'll pass once you address these issues. Please contact me should you have any questions -- I'll check this talk page periodically. Also, consider looking over the Duke University article to see an excellent FA-class university article. Majoreditor 03:32, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Update on GA review. I will complete the review this evening. Majoreditor 13:43, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Passed GA Review

I am passing the article on GA review:

GA review (see here for criteria)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    a (fair representation): b (all significant views):
  5. It is stable.
  6. It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.
    a (tagged and captioned): b lack of images (does not in itself exclude GA): c (non-free images have fair use rationales):
  7. Overall:
    a Pass/Fail:

To elaborate:

1. Is the article well written? Just barely above passing level, but yes. In this respect:

(a) Prose are serviceable but not always crisp. Grammar is fine with few exceptions.
(b) Does it comply with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, jargon, words to avoid, fiction, and list incorporation? Two lists could be better incorporated, and some subsection are short and may benefit from combination. This is somewhat subjective, and, per GA Guidelines, "Although the entire Manual of Style should be followed, it is not completely necessary at [GA] level."

2. Is the article factually accurate and verifiable? Yes.

(a) Does it provides references to sources used -- absolutely yes.
(b) Does it cites reliable sources for quotations and for material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, preferably using inline citations for longer articles -- yes. For example, the streaking claim may be challenged, but it cites a reliable source. Also, IMO, the article would benefit from more citation from books rather than relying so heavily on online reference sources -- but that's one person's opinion.
(c) Does it contains no original research -- No issues.

3. Is the article broad in its coverage? Yes:

(a) Does it addresses the major aspects of the topic -- yes.
(b) Does it stay focused on the topic without going into unnecessary details (see summary style) -- some details are questionable. There is perhaps too much detail on student activities and clubs, and perhaps too many instances of academic rankings.

4. Is the article neutral; that is, it represents viewpoints fairly and without bias? Yes, although there is an occasional air of bragging.

5. Is the article stable; that is, it does not change significantly from day to day and is not the subject of an ongoing edit war? Yes.

6. Are images it contains appropriate to the subject, with succinct captions and acceptable copyright status? Yes.


Summary comment: article passes all GA critera, although it is borderline for style and focus. I recommend that editors continue to improve the prose and ensure compliance with all elements of the Manual of Style.

Good work! Majoreditor 03:11, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article length

Congrats on GA status. This article is coming in at 115kb which is indigestible in a single sitting. I added tags where it was obvious that the material should be split off into its own sister page (History, Colleges). I just copied the entire history section to the new History of Florida State University as an example -- but someone needs to trim off the fat on the main FSU page here. I also went through and added a few fact tags (I'm a real stickler when it comes to academic boosterism) around the rankings and student body section. Let me know what I can do to help. Madcoverboy 02:14, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

The History section can stand alone. IMO the sections on individual colleges aren't developed enough to spin off as their own articles. However, one could create a single article on FSU colleges. Sirberus, your thoughts? Majoreditor 12:37, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
See below, but I made each its own webpage. There's no reason that every page couldn't include a list of faculty and research programs -- information which would quickly overload a single page containing all of them. Alternatively, you could create a List of colleges at Florida State University and just have main articles linking off of that to the larger ones (Law, Medicine, Arts & Sciences, etc). Madcoverboy 17:12, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Some of these university elements already have their own pages, so they'll need to be incorporated and redundancies eliminated. I agree that some other sections need to be associated until appropriate material can be gathered for each own page. Thanks for the help! Sirberus 18:11, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reorganization

I just finished up a major reorganization of the article based upon the WikiProject Universities outline style, moving all the college information off to sister pages. I attempted to add a rudimentary section on Organization and Campus, but as I have no experience with the school, I am just going off of what I can find about 2 pages deep on the appropriate websites. These should be expanded-- organization should include more about the relationship between the administration and faculty senate, reporting relationships between the colleges and administration, student governing bodies, codes of conduct, etc. Campus should be much larger and include major buildings (stadium, libraries, housing) as well as a section on changes associated with the master plan. I also moved and renamed the "Alumni" and "faculty" sister pages to List of Florida State University alumni and List of Florida State University faculty as the "notable" designation is redundant. I also updated the navigation box to reflect these changes. Madcoverboy 17:12, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the work. Majoreditor 17:25, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
So far, so good. I corrected some of the figures and added a reference. I have long envisioned developing a comprehensive set of pages for the university but now is as good a time as any. Looks nice. Sirberus 18:08, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
I just went through and implemented cite templates for all the references to ensure consistency. I believe a previous editor had used ref name tags to name every cite, but never actually linked back to them, so the vast majority were just wasted text as it was never referred to again. However, for those references that had one or more citations in the body, I did keep this implementation, although I did scale back on some of the naming. I tried to catch as many errors as I could with regard to the syntax or formatting of the cite templates, but I'm sure there are more hiding down there in the references that I am just too bleary eyed to see right now. Madcoverboy 20:16, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Understood. It does get to be work when parsing all the plain text. Sirberus 21:01, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History section

Now that the history section has become a separate article, perhaps the amount here should be drastically cut back , in accordance with WP summary style--normally a single paragraph only is left. DGG (talk) 23:42, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree with that approach. Duke University and Yale University are comparable. I think it has lost enough weight as-is. Sirberus 01:55, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] colors on table

why are the colors red and tan? why not gold? and if gold is too light, how come it isnt used as one of the school colors, tan is still used there too! LightSpeed3 18:52, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

  • When I created the template I originally used gold but thought the text stood out better in tan. I think it looks better, but If you want to change it then take a poll please.Mike850 16:52, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
  • thats fine, but theres a small part that says "school colors" inside the table and tan is still there too LightSpeed3 02:37, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Non-standard infobox

Hi there, folks. There is a discussion currently underway at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Universities about the use of non-standard infotables on this and a few other articles on universities in Florida. I and a few other editors would support standardising to {{Infobox University}}. That infobox has widespread consensus among editors and is used on several thousand articles. There are a few other issues: to be honest, I'm not sure that I like the use of strong colors, and using a non-standard infobox will likely prevent this article from achieving FA status. Editors here may wish contribute the the discussion at the WP:UNI talk page. — mholland (talk) 17:14, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

  • OK to Revert While I enjoy FSU's InfoBox as-is, Wikipedia is first an encyclopedia. As such, standardization is important, especially if update functionality on Wikipedia is automated. Sirberus 23:07, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
    • Additionally, I want to see this article meet FA standards and it appears the InfoBox will be an issue. Sirberus 23:11, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Leave it as is! What can be done is tone the color down a shade but it does make us stand out, i have seen UofF do it as well as another university —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.35.241.164 (talk • contribs) 23:03, August 3, 2007
As stated in the discussion linked to above, readability and usability trump "school spirit" in an encyclopedia article. Encyclopedia articles that "stand out" are not always a good thing. --ElKevbo 03:10, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Florida State University Panama City

Any help and imput for the Panama City campus would be appreciated. Florida State is working hard to make something of this campus however information seams limited. UkrNole 485 13:57, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Greek System

Dont you all think there should be some mention about the greek system? It is a big part od student life - hps05