Talk:Florida State University/Archive 1

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

Famous Alumni

I removed Kevin Cash and Eduardo Perez. With all of the athletes to come out of FSU, a MLB player with a .246 average, and no other notable characteristics, doesn't really need to be on here, does he? This list will get out of hand if we include every athlete to go pro out of FSU. I think we should just try to limit the athletes. AriGold 15:00, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
I abstain from comment on the sole defense that I'm sick of discussing the alumni list :) TrbleClef ♮ (talk) 18:01, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
By saying you abstain from comment, are you in fact commenting? ;-) AriGold 18:05, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Homestar Runner is included.

Also, an alumnus by definition is anyone who has received a degree from a school. There's no need to overcomplicate it. TrbleClef 20:39, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Fair enough. I agree.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 206.201.180.226 (talk • contribs) 13:46, 3 June 2005 (UTC).

Ranking of fine arts programs

I understand your concern about boasting without backup, but if you do a little reasearch, you'll see that it is so in those departments. I'll start you off.

  • "The Florida State University School of Theatre is one of the leading comprehensive theatre training programs in the United States. U.S. News and World Report has consistently included FSU's graduate theatre programs in its top-tier rankings, one of the few public university programs thus honored. The School is accredited by the National Association of Schools of Theatre and is a founding member of the University/Resident Theatre Association." http://theatre.fsu.edu/academic/graduate/ AriGold 16:48, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
    • It may be wise to cite specifics for all these rankings, perhaps with endnotes. TrbleClef ♮ (talk) 19:45, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
      • Agreed. AriGold 20:11, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

ENROLLMENT/Academics

The enrollment information quoted from Princeton Review is for FALL 2004 statistics, not 2005. The Tallahassee Democrat posted the CORRECT SAT and enrollment numbers on August 29th, 2005. Florida State Universtity is expected to post the official IR factbook on this information by the end of October.

Need to get the new Fall 2006 student stats up. They are significantly higher than last year...1140-1280 for starters.

I updated the Fall 2006 general statistics to match FSU's IR stats.Sirberus 02:47, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

This needs further expantion.

  • I have expanded the section. Other college rankings such as Music, Theatre and Arts should be added.


This should be easier now as FSU is ranked in several catagories in the US News 2006 Best Graduate Schools, plus FSU law rankings haven risen significantly. The 2006 US News & World report on Best Collges comes out for release in August 2005.

According to www.fsu.edu, About FSU:

With an impressive breadth of programs, Florida State University has leading graduate, professional, and undergraduate programs in a variety of fields. Many units have programs that consistently rank among the nation’s top twenty-five public universities, including programs in Physics, Chemistry, Oceanography, Statistics, Ecology and Evolutionary Biology, Meteorology, Political Science, Psychology, Sociology, Criminology, Information, Creative Writing, Public Policy, Business and Law.


some goofball messed up the enrollment figures.


i doubt the gpa is 1.67 some kid(most likely a gator) keeps playing with the topic...

Computer Science Information

The part about FSU's CS dept being a center for national excellence is misleading. It appears to add credibility to the program as a top-tier CS program. However, looking at the rankings, FSU's program is woefully inadaquate. Shouldn't it be re-written, or at leasted pointed out that it was more to do with the federal government's focus on affirmative action and FSU's ties/joint engineering program with FAMU, a historically black school?

  • FSU's Department of Computer Science is NOT in the College of Engineering, it is under the College of Arts and Sciences. Therefore, it has NOTHING to do with FAMU and/or affirmative action. It became a Center for National Excellence, simply because the National Security Agency has funded their various research programs, especially in Cryptography. The NSA could've chosen any other college or university in the state of Florida, but they chose FSU's CS Dept. for a reason of excellence!

Housing

This section needs to be added

Added. Including some information about parking (ugh).Sirberus 17:04, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

History

The history is public record, accessible through many website, handbooks and even the Florida Statutes. Here are some links to the history. The version on the wikipedia page has information gathered from sites and has been rewritten in parts. http://www.fsu.edu/~dof/Faculty-Handbook/Ch2/Ch2.1.html http://www.fsu.edu/~fsu150/history/history_02_1851b.html http://www.ir.fsu.edu/search_help/searchinfo.asp?ID=t_history http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/F/Fl/Florida_State_University.htm

It still contains text which is directly taken from copyright protected websites. That's not allowed. TrbleClef 20:25, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Where is the History section? That history is part of what makes FSU the most unique university in Florida. Please replace it.

I rewrote the History section after someone vandalized it. Please review the composition.Sirberus 02:43, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Programs

I've removed the International Programs link because it appears to be POV to include a link to one (college, school,) department of the university without including links to every (college, school, and) department of the university, all of which are accessible from the university's directory site anyway. Additionally, the link was added in an edit from 146.201.119.101, which is an IP allocated to the International Programs office -- nothing inherently bad about that, but it would suggest that any visitor from an FSU department add an individual link for that department.

Certainly anyone seeking further information on the International Programs, or any of the other colleges/schools/departments mentioned in the article could find such information by using the university's directory. TrbleClef 03:45, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

ACC template

Is this ACC template really appropriate for the footer of a university article? The entire article is not about university sports - would it be more appropriate to create a sports section and place the template there?

I'd say it's fine. Many of the other schools have it. Athletics are just as much a part of the university as academics, and in many cases are the most visible aspect of a university's credentials.
True, but my question only related to whether it belonged as the footer (I believe this was before the SUS template was placed at the bottom)
Ah, I see now, it';s in there twice. I'd say one time is enough. Take it out in the links section at the bottom maybe? AriGold 16:43, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Mascot Controversy ?

There is controversy over the FSU use of Seminole/Native American symbolism, imagery, etc. and using "seminole" as the mascot name. FSU asked ALL the various Seminole Nations for permission to use the mascot including Osceola and his horse Renegade. They've asked if they were offended by the "Chop" or "War Chant". Seminoles (the Native American Tribe) from the state of Florida accept the FSU use of their symbols and name, and they actually welcome and embrace the use. However Seminoles from outside the state of Florida (notably those residing in the state of Oklahoma who are descendents of those forcibly exiled from Florida in the 19th century) disagree and would like the university to stop using the Seminole nickname and the related symbols.

Those who find the FSU "Seminoles" and other Native American mascots to be a source of controversy are often themselves cariacatured as politically correct types who would probably also find the name Miami "Hurricanes" to be offensive to people named Charley or Andrew, as the previous version of this Wikipedia entry attests. Not a 'nole fan, actually a rival 'cane fan defending NPOV. Jcam 02:21, 23 May 2005 (UTC)


This controversy has been resolved, as the Seminole Nations have asked the NCAA to allow FSU to retain their title and mascot.Hence, it's resolved. Swatjester 20:48, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Notable Alumni and Faculty lists

I moved the lists to a seperate page because they were large enough to warrant such a move. I give University of Alabama, Vanderbilt University, Duke University, Harvard University as examples of uni articles with seperated alumni lists [with the caveat that I've hand a hand in editing most of those articles (not Hahvahd)]. I think the better question to ask is this: Does the article look better with or without a large list in a it? -Ttownfeen 18:24, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

  • I don't think aesthetics are the most important issue. Providing relevent information wherever possible is. Bring it to a vote if you wish, but most here have been contributing to the section for a while now and have not had a problem with it. AriGold 18:44, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Nah, I don't want to be a pain or cause drama. I was just trying to help. -[User:Ttownfeen|Ttownfeen]]

+Meteorology in Famous Alumni?

Recently Max Mayfield, Director of the National Hurricane Center was added under Media. Looking at Media, there's a lot of meteorologists. Anyone object to adding a special section for them? Kushboy 20:16, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Nope, none here Swatjester 20:47, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

  • No objection also, though I think there is a subtle distinction between a television personality/meteorologist and say a NOAA employee/meteorologist, that we might have to draw, you know? AriGold 22:04, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
  • That's tough to judge. I'm going to move them all over to a new section for now. Let me know if you have any ideas of how to draw the line. Kushboy 03:54, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

FYI - the new director replacing Max Mayfield is also an FSU graduate.Sirberus 02:48, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Mack Brown, Athlete?

I see why Mack Brown was added under Famous Athletes, but should he be there? Coaches = athletes? Kushboy 07:27, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

  • He attended FSU as a student-athlete. Brown graduated from Florida State. He lettered twice as a running back for the Seminoles in 1972-73. An injury sidelined him for much of the 1973 season and he worked and that led to the start of his coaching career as he became a student coach. He completed his bachelor's degree in education in 1974. AriGold 13:44, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Should we note that? His only credential in the article is being a coach. That's what he's famous for. Burn Reynolds was an athlete at FSU, but now he's an actor. Kushboy 05:18, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
    • I think I solved the issue you are trying to address by changing the "Famous Athletes" section to "Athletics". Reynolds belongs in the Entertainment section because that is what he is famous for, not for being a FSU football player. Same with Brown, he is famous for being in the world of athletics, not for being an athlete. Now, you could make an argument that he belongs in the "Education" section, as college coaches are also considered educators by most universites (and in some cases are required to actually teach, see Penn State). But I don't think we want to go that way. Look good? AriGold 13:49, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Yay Kushboy 15:06, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
  • I am too lazy to look but is Lee Corso on the list too? If anyone ever goes to the Sports Deli next to Doak, they have that picture on the wall of the late 1950's football teams with other famous Noles throughout the school's history. Might be good to check out some ideas from there.
  • He is now. AriGold 13:36, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Founding

  • FSU WAS NOT founded in 1851. 1851 is the year the Florida Legislature enacted legislation to found two seminaries, East Florida Seminary and West Florida Seminary. EFS opened in 1853, and WFS opened in 1857. EFS merged with another institution later. In 1905, the Buckman act REPLACED these institutions and the State Normal and Industrial College for Negroes (With much of same staff, administration, and buildings) with newer institutions. EFS became the University of Florida, WFS Became FSU, and the State Normal and Industrial College for Negroes became Florida Agricultural and Mechanical University. Now, perhaps the wording "Official" and "Actual" is not ideal ("Actual" seems a bit harsh for all three, in my opinion), but the three institutions all went through a similar history in regards to the founding date, and all three should be in line as far as the info box founding date goes. Feel free to change the wording, like I said, I don't find the wording to be ideal anyway, but make sure you change the wording on ALL THREE at the SAME TIME. If you remove the second date, remove the second date on all three. I don't care what the end result is, just all three need to be held to the same standard. - FrYGuY 18:25, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
    • "Established", not founded, by the Florida Legislature is 1851, like the infobox states. So, 1851 it is. The explanation is in the article. I think that works. I see you are trying to find some kind of uniformity between FSU, uf and FAMU which is admirable. But I think that a simple establishment date of 1851 works for either FSU or uf, and I think it should be kept that way, and have changed it as such here. As I do not participate in the editing at the uf page, I do not feel comfortable making that decision there also. I am sure you understand. AriGold 19:07, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
      • But it was not established in 1851, the two Florida Seminaries were. Florida State University, the current form, was established in 1905. By the way, UF's official founding date is 1853, the date EFS opened, rather than the date they were given funding. But, c'est la vie. I'll change FAMU's and UF's. -FrYGuY 02:44, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
        • [1] about UF.
          • Why not like so?
            Established: 1851 (as West Florida Seminary)
            1905 (as Florida State University)
          • Communicates the facts without establishing POV. --Tetraminoe 05:09, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
            • Why not? Because if you do that, you should do this:
              Established: 1851 (as the State Seminary West of the Suwannee River)
              1854 (as the Florida Institute)
              1857 (as the West Florida Seminary having absorbed the Tallahassee Female Academy)
              1863 (as the Florida Military and Collegiate Institute)
              1901 (as the Florida State College)
              1905 (as the Florida Female College)
              1909 (as the Florida State College for Women)
              1946 (as the Florida State University)
            • And when all is said and done, it's all included in the History section of the article and addding all of that would be overkill, as the school was first established, albeit not in its current form, in 1851. Most universities have gone through similar changes. For example, look at Penn State's page. They list their founding as "1855", when in actuality it was not "The Pennsylvania State University" that was created in 1855, it was the "Farmers' High School of Pennsylvania". Names of schools have changed along with many other characteristics of the schools. AriGold 13:20, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
            • FSU absolutely was founded (by every traditional & tangible measure) in 1851. It's obviously a sore spot for supporters of UF and FAMU. FSU's campus is older.
            • Since FSU absorbed the Misses Bates School, begun in 1843, doesn't that resolve the issue of FSU being the oldest university in Florida once and for all? I've not seen any other school that can claim: (a) it's been in the same spot all these years (certainly not UF, since it's been in several locations over the years and was closed all together during the Civil War) and (b) it can properly trace roots to 1843. I see no case for any other claim. Yet, UF makes the claim on their website that they're 'oldest' - which is deceptive.

Updated identity

FSU has introduced a new seal and wordmark. It is protected by a new office and not available for download without permission. If anyone is interested in updating what is in the article consider contacting that office; see [2]

  • I have talked to the office, and I will handle it, if nobody else does first. Kushboy 07:10, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

FSU Wikimeeting

Any FSU attending wikipedia editors here are invited to a superbowl party, sunday, hosted by me. Leave a message on my talk space. Swatjester 07:56, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Athletics Change

With so much information available within Seminole sports, AriGold and Noles1984 have created a Florida State Seminoles article.Image:FSU Helmet.png Noles1984 17:45, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Reorg

Under Academics, I removed the bolding of each school within the text itself in favor of using bold headings which were absent before. This produced a cleaner appearance. Noles1984 16:17, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

The opening paragraph needs work (it certainly doesn't do FSU justice). What does "graduate-national research" in the opening line mean? Did you mean "graduate, national research". Overall there's some good content on this site...but the opening is poor.

FSU opening paragraph needs update

The opening paragraph needs work (it certainly doesn't do FSU justice). What does "graduate-national research" in the opening line mean? Did you mean "graduate, national research". Overall there's some good content on this site...but the opening is poor.

--- I agree it doesn't do FSU justice...

--- I changed the intro back to include "oldest site of higher education in Florida" since someone removed it. Why would you take that out?

== Endowment == I noticed someone changed the endowment from 630 million to 460. Is this accurate? I read the source, but it also said that our previous endowment wasn't 630 mill, but rather only 400 something.

---

Corrected vandalism by 128.227.82.127 (University of Florida).Sirberus 16:00, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Something new

I wrote this. Does anyone think it could fit in, and if so, where? Kushboy 17:39, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

History and symbolism of the seal

The first seal claimed by FSU was a drawing of an owl used for the State Seminary West of the Suwannee River. The owl basically represented wisdom. When the school became the Florida State College in 1901, the owl was accompanied by two torches. Eventually, between 1905 and 1909, the owl was entirely replaced by a third torch. A ribbon was added that wove between the torches and read "Vires, Artes, Mores." The torch behind the word “Artes” translated to “wisdom” specifically took the place of the owl, and stands larger than the other two torches, symbolically implying that wisdom is more important than “strength” and “morals”. The school's slogan "Femina Perfecta" (Latin: The Completed Woman), and the roman numerals MCMV for 1905 were also an addition. In 1947, the school became the Florida State University, and so the school colors filled in the seal, "Femina Perfecta" was removed, and the year was changed to 1857. In 2001 when President D'Alemberte appealed to have the official year changed, the seal's year was changed to 1851. The current seal was designed in 2005, to be released officially in August, 2006. The change was to modernize the seal, changing the font, tweaking the colors slightly, and replacing the hand-drawn torches with computer designed graphics. [3]

  • Florida State University Communications Department (August 30, 2005). "The FSU Seal: A Brief History". Retrieved June 9, 2006.


I removed the picture of the Anthro Dept in the strip center. I felt it did not contribute postively to the article. Technically, that is an off campus site and is being used only because FSU is under space constraints.

Academic clusters

Added "academic clusters" to intro. with Association of American Universities. We are currently undertaking a great leap forward in academia and it's worth noting in the article. Noles1984 15:10, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Replaced intro paragraph

Some unknown fool removed the intro paragraph. I'm close to calling this vandalism.
Image:FSU Helmet.png Noles1984 18:41, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Photos

I think we need some more pictures on here, don't you think?

  • Yeah Kushboy 01:20, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

FSU Page Rework

Looking much better! Now if only the UF, FAMU and Miami fans would leave it alone...Sirberus 04:07, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

The Taxol Story

I think the story about Taxol (College of A&S, Dept. of Chemistry) belongs as a sub heading under the College of Arts and Sciences...not at the end of the entire listing...Sirberus 21:51, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

  • Before it just looked intermingled among various departments...Mike850 17:40, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
    • OK Siberus, I moved "the taxol story" back to underneath "the college of arts and sciences" but I made the sub-heading title smaller as to be more distinguishable as a sub-heading. I also reworked the order in which the departments were presented to make the art programs all presented together...Mike850 17:40, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
      • Nice job!Sirberus 23:11, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

This is no reason to codify on Wikipedia every dispute or negative news burst that occurs at a major research university. If you start this trend, and this is the second time you've gone this direction, then it will be fair game to pick at every weakness at every school, and the opportunities are manifold. For example, on the UF page, why is there not a mention of the near bankruptcy of the College they have? It's news, it's well documented, it's fact. See where this could go? It does no one any good, but plays to your apparent goal of trying to diminish a fine, 150+ year old university. Sirberus 03:48, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

  • Because one the UF page they probably aren't praising the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences as the next best thing to sliced bread. If you are going to say how much money and how great Taxol and Holton is, you have to update the story and the fact that Holton SUED the University for backstabbing him. This is a huge part of the Taxol story which was covered by every major news source including the New York Times.
    • That is a donor-university dispute. It doesn't matter regarding the development of Taxol. At most it could rate a sentence, but by comparison to similar disputes at Princeton or Harvard, it is barely an event. Their donor disputes also appear in national newspapers, too. Those schools have HUGE disputes with donors involving hundreds of millions of dollars, covering decades of issues, yet not a word of it appears on their Wikipedia university pages. The discovery of Taxol is noteworthy, but even it is fairly unremarkable in the history of the entire university. Therefore, no mention of a much later donor dispute in the article regarding the development of Taxol.Sirberus 14:55, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
      • This is more than a donor-university dispute. This is the creator of Taxol and the pride and joy of FSU research for so long calling FSU out and saying what they had hoped to build research wise at FSU is dead and making FSU pay back the money he gave them. This is not just a donor, this man was FSU Research. It tells the story of FSU and Wetherell backstabbing Holton and him fighting bsck in court. If that is not noteworthy, I don't know what is. You usually don't see Harvard chemists who have a breakthrough saying the university lied to them.
        • That is only one side of a heated dispute. One Princeton dispute involves nearly $650 million and I am sure has heated issues as well. The answer is the same - it does not belong on this page.Sirberus 20:33, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
  • An anonymous writer is adding subjective, one-sided information concerning the Taxol dispute. Furthermore, one quote, added to the end of the sub-section, serves no purpose other than to libel the University without giving the University fair space from which to respond. Finally, the writer's prose does not meet the article's quality standards, it is suggested that the anonymous writer proofread his/her text and complete a course in English before contributing further. Mike850 20:45, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
    • The ^anonymous editor has an IP address registered to the University of Florida.Sirberus 13:30, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Page Rework

I've removed the 'photo request' header as I think I've covered that (I have more good pics though), and added a 'WikiProject Universities' header, thoughts sirberus? Mike850 03:50, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Looking good! I'd like to see if we can upload thumbnails of the historic pix. Sirberus 18:17, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I suggest it is time to do a complete review of the work to date and start to fill in gaps and improve the use of language. There are many important programs that are not mentioned. Sirberus 03:44, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

    • One small thing was fixed. "The" was removed from the beginning. Nowhere (that I see) does FSU call itself "The Florida State University", unlike Ohio State, William & Mary, etc. It comes off as elitist, and without a notation showing that they (FSU) themselves refer to their institution as "The Florida State University", it is not needed.
      • The University does appear to refer to itself in official documents with the "The" in the name. I've added a cite for this title.Sirberus 12:34, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
        • The question is though if it's "The Florida State University" or The "Florida State University". That doesn't really distinguish which they mean. I'm not going to edit it, because I don't see a reason to without more proof. I have just never heard of them refer to themselves that way.
          • I see what you mean; I have mixed emotions about it myself. However, I have seen the title used on official documents over the years so that's why I put it back...until a more authoritative reference can be identified. It seems FSU uses it both ways.Sirberus 20:55, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
            • I heard from a university official that about 1 year ago FSU dropped the "The" from the official title. I'll look for a cite, but that's authoritative enough for me.Sirberus 20:56, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
              • Excellent. Glad we figured that out. I didn't think they refered to themselves as "The Florida State University", but like I said, I wasn't going to edit it again until proof was given. I didn't want to come off as one that vandalized.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.100.195.85 (talk • contribs) 02:25, 26 June 2007 (UTC).

College of Business

Added 2006 BusinessWeek rankings, updated US News rankings and other figures from COB website and other sources that are linked. JJ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.237.178.195 (talk) 22:32, 13 January 2007 (UTC).

Endowment

I changed the endowment from $630M to $475M. The 630 figure is the amount received from our latest fund-raiser. 475 is an approximation, we should get the official figure in Jan/Feb. Mike850

Endowment updated to $500M. Sirberus 14:59, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Notable Alumni - Who should stay

Alumni section's a little big, starting to crowd out the main article. I think scientists, businessmen, and fine artists should take precedence over entertainers. So let's list those who should be removed to make room. Mike850 00:39, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

  • Wikipedia is warning us this article is quite long. I suggest if anything goes, it's the "Notable Alumni" section. This article is about the University, more than famous people who happen to be alumni. Sirberus 12:40, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

New Template

I've created a new FSU Template: Florida State University. I've added one to the bottom of the article, please add any facilities to the template as needed. Mike850 07:47, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I like the template, but can we add garnet instead of black background?Sirberus 17:14, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

We need a stub for the FSU COMSirberus 01:06, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Athletic Symbol

The women's athletic symbol/logo is no longer used.

  • We know that the symbol is dated...but until we can find a legal current graphic we're kind of stuck with it.Sirberus 20:59, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Is there any way we can add this FSU promotional video to the page?:

http://pathways.fsu.edu/

Great video with lots of positive info.

PS The FSU page looks vastly improved compared to my last visit here. Kudos!

FSU video

Is there any way we can add this FSU promotional video to the page?:

http://pathways.fsu.edu/

Great video with lots of positive info.

PS The FSU page looks vastly improved compared to my last visit here. Kudos!

TBUF Details

While the TBUF is history, it is in fact negligible in the context of the entire history of the university. As the initial author of the history section here my goal was not to write a duplication of the FSU official history or the FSU history from the perspective of UF fans. What we have is an accurate summary of many major events in the history of FSU. Not all details are given, only enough to whet the appetite of the reader with a reasonable summary; complete with links to the official history of the university and the Florida archives, where complete detail may be had.Sirberus 23:04, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

TBUF was a temporary program established to give the state time to deal with the huge influx of soldiers taking advantage of the G.I. Bill. This program lasted maybe one year. Not very significant, I would suggest in the history of the 156+ year old FSU but if people want it in the history I'm ok with it as long as it not driven out of proportion to the rest of the history. The adding of minute details seems pretty silly when viewed in the context of the article, I mean who really cares except gator fans trying yet again to create problems?Sirberus 13:05, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

If someone can improve this article, please do.Sirberus 20:05, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Was FSU "created" in 1947 or was FSCW renamed FSU?

The official history of Florida State University is contained on the university web pages here: http://www.fsu.edu/about/history.html

Here's the quote from that site: "The year 1947 saw many changes. Demand by returning World War II veterans had brought men back to the campus in 1946 with the establishment of the Tallahassee Branch of the University of Florida, and on May 15, 1947, the Governor signed an act of the Legislature returning Florida State College for Women to coeducational status and naming it The Florida State University."

This language has been approved by the Administration of the university and may be considered authoritative. I'm quite sure that any language describing the university on a public display like a web page must go through multiple technical and legal reviews before it is approved by either the ranking university authorities or the FSU Board of Trustees.

There is a claim by some that this book, written by Frank Stephenson, that FSU was "created" in 1947: http://www.rinr.fsu.edu/summer95/features/warchild.html Note that this book draws from an FSU student's dissertation which may be found here: Femina Perfecta: The Genesis of Florida State University, by Robin Jeanne Sellers, Ph.D. This dissertation, representing the first comprehensive history of FSCW and the "Great Transition," will be published as a book this fall by the FSCW/FSU Class of 1947.

I must point out that a dissertation, even if it claims to be "comprehensive" may never be embraced by the University officially. FSU produces thousands and thousands of dissertations and few, if any, are adopted as official policy of the university.

Why is this even an issue? The reason is that some UF fans, in the never-ending quest for superiority over the rival flagship FSU, want to parse such language in such ways that it diminishes the university. It's really of little moment, but between FSU and UF alumni, it's very important. In this instance alone it has resulted in battles of Wikipedia reverts and testy postings. (some may call this a nerd war - lol)

Therefore, unless someone has more credible sources than the official position of the FSU Trustees, I suggest we go with the official language of the university in the "History of the University" section.

Please note that I will not revert or edit the current text (unless it gets to be vandalism) for a couple days here so that everyone gets a chance to come back with remarks.Sirberus 12:55, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Added more detail to the paragraph and links to pix from the Florida Archives. Reworked the paragraph to match the official FSU history.Sirberus 16:40, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Academics and External Rankings

I wanted to solicit comments regarding two statements in this section.

The first states that: Florida State University joins the University of Florida as the top-ranked public universities in Florida, the only public universites in the top U.S. News ranking tier, and the only universities listed in the Academic Ranking of World Universities Top 100 American Universites[4][5].

Obviously, the second and third clauses are not correct as written, as there are many other public universities in the top U.S. News ranking tier and there are certainly other universities listed in the Top 100 American Universities rankings. Is this supposed to be a reference instead only to universities in Florida?

The second states that:

FSU has an 89% freshman retention rate, competitive with any public university in the country.[6]

Unfortunately, the source cited states neither that FSU has an 89% freshman retention rate nor that such rate is "competitive with any public university in the country." I am sure that data can be found re: the freshman retention rate, and the other comment seems superfluous.

Since the comments were reinserted without substantive explanation after I deleted them previously on these bases, I wanted to fully explain the issues before making any changes.

Cka3n 18:40, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Looks like your changes have been enacted.Sirberus 01:08, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Featured Article Request

I've asked for a fac review of the article now that it has been in peer review status for some time.Sirberus 13:36, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Major Revisions Proposed for Article

As a result of the feedback received from the Featured Article Candidate request it seems we have some work to do to bring this article up to a higher level.

First, it seems the listing of FSU alumni, which grows ever longer, must be moved to it's own sub-article or stub. I agree with this change and solicit comments about this proposed change.

Secondly, we must rework the method of citation to a more standard format. Any comments on this are appreciated as well.

Lastly, please take a critical look at the article. One comment dealt with too many graphics in the middle of the article. While this is open to interpretation, please offer suggestions as to what changes to graphics improves the quality of the article.

I will not make any changes until we have a week or so for comments about these proposed changes. Once we eliminate these aspects it's likely there will be more work to do. If we do not make any changes the article is not at all likely to make Featured Article status.Sirberus 00:03, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

  • We have to be careful not to heed any suggestions from people who harbor anti-fsu sentiment, most of the suggestions seem reasonable but others, such as the removing of graphics, seem ridiculous. I've seen many featured articles with an abundance of relevant graphics.
  • As for suggestions you have echoed above, I agree with the first point but when we move the alumni section please, please let's make sure that we keep the current format. The layout, organization, and content is all nicely accomplished. I was afraid that our citation layout would get us into trouble...all featured articles have a traditional footnote layout it seems.
  • I agree with the suggestion that our intro is way too long, I didn't realize until reading that suggestion that someone had scrapped our old intro from a few weeks ago (which was quite good) and basically parroted the exact information presented in The Academics and Rankings section. I'll try to repair it.Mike850 18:32, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
    • Agreed - we have work to do. I was giving it a few days before editing to allow for discussion.Sirberus 01:12, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Flagship status

What makes FSU a flagship school? I checked the citations and can find nothing that would denote FSU a flagship school. Also check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagship#University_campuses it says flagship schools are usually the first established school in a state. The entry on "flagship schools" says this "a flagship campus is often a land-grant school dating from the wave of state university foundings that followed the Morrill Act of 1863." This does not describe FSU at all. The term is pretty broad, but what makes it a flagship school? If no one affirms this I will delete it. Ocoufnoc 04:32, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't have an opinion as to whether FSU should be described as a flagship, however, I wanted to make a couple of comments. First, regarding the citations, the first is cited to show that the antecedents of both Florida and Florida State were created in the same year, and the second is to a document where the USA Today lists FSU amongst 75 "flagship" universities. Also, there has been an extensive debate over on the University of Florida talk page regarding this issue [7], and presumably both pages should eventually reflect the same conclusion.
Some further evidence to consider:
FSU at times regards itself as a flagship:
"We've been fortunate to have had some success in terms of legislative commitment to higher education and the state's flagship universities. Last year's salary increase was the largest in more than a decade. The Legislature allocated nearly $36 million of a $100 million three-year commitment, to be shared by FSU and the University of Florida to build major research and economic development facilities."
http://president.fsu.edu/state/
At other times, including e.g. the faculty senate, it appears not to:
"This could be good for FSU since we tend to think of FSU as the other Florida flagship university, but we are one of four or five “Research I” schools in the SUS, and Tallahassee lacks the political clout of the areas served by some others."
http://facsenate.fsu.edu/minutes/FSMinutes1-24-07.pdf
Cka3n 06:27, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
I believe the "flagship" reference should remain as is with regard to FSU. There is substantial evidence to suggest it meets the Wikipedia flagship definition alone, which relies heavily on the Berdahl speech, in addition to myriad other references from the university and outside the university.
This section, copied directly from Berdahl's speech (see: http://cio.chance.berkeley.edu/chancellor/sp/flagship.htm) (Robert Berdahl, former University of California, Berkeley chancellor) is most telling why FSU is indeed a flagship university: "In most cases, these institutions were the first public universities to be established in their states. Many of what we now call the flagship campuses were established in the extraordinary period of university building that took place in the United States in the roughly three decades from the mid-1850s to the mid-1880s. Many came into being after the Morrill Act of 1863 provided the federal grants of land to the states to establish public universities. Some states built two institutions, a land-grant college focused on agriculture and the "mechanical arts" as well as general education, and another more directed at classical education and the other professions." Sirberus 12:46, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
While I appreciate your point, how would you address the concern that, by applying Berdahl's speech, we Wikipedian's are judging whether or not FSU is a flagship (as opposed to reporting how FSU, the state of Florida, or other authorities see the issue)?Cka3n 14:03, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
Not sure I know what you mean, but a preponderence of the evidence appears to show that FSU fits right in with the criteria specified by Berdahl for flagship universities. While Berdahl was not specifically speaking about FSU and UF at the time (that is at least apparent from his words in this text), the pattern he drew in 1998 with his analysis fits the two schools even today. To me, even as an FSU alumnus, I was put off by the "flagship" title until I read the Wikipedia (university) definition based mostly on Berdahl's analysis. Once I digested his analysis, I saw the pattern he was describing as fitting UF and FSU perfectly when you review the history of both universities.
Confusion and disagreement come into play as some folks interpret the term "flagship" as meaning the university with the current lead or best rankings. I think this interpretation is incorrect, as universities are much more than current magazine rankings, FTIC stats or passionate fans. Berdahl appears to see flagship universities as originating and integral parts of the history and base fabric of higher education in a particular state. I have been persuaded to his view by his speech and my continuing analysis of the facts and history of FSU in particular and UF by happenstance. In fact, reverting to the meaning of the original naval term "flagship" we see that it tends to be one ship over time where the "flag" officer is based, not the fastest ship or the newest ship or even the best equipped ship, which appears to be more consistent with Dr. Berdahl's definition. Sirberus 15:34, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
My point was that Wikipedia should not be the place of interpretation, especially if there is any controversy regarding the interpretation. If outside authority calls Florida State a "flagship university," let Wikipedia report it. If no outside authority makes such a claim, then no such claim should be included.Cka3n 15:50, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
Not sure I will go all the way with you on that (and I mean that nicely :-) ), but I do agree with WP:POV and work to try and be fair, with accurate references and reasoned presentation.Sirberus 17:11, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
Well said, Cka3n. I agree completely. That there has been sufficient reliable and notable evidence to establish FSU's flagship claim means that we must include it. That I do not personally agree with the assertion matters not - it's been documented and NPOV demands we include it. --ElKevbo 17:23, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
Not intending to flog a dead horse, but here is one authoritative document I came across that deserves notice with regard to this area. Here, then Governor Bush announces his "Twenty Percent Plan" for Florida. See: http://www.puaf.umd.edu/puaf650-Fullinwider/handouts-AA-Florida%20Plan.htm In this plan, the Governor of Florida refers to both FSU and UF as "flagship" universities: "In addition, the "cascading" effect, or the reduction of minority students in our flagship universities that many critics of the One Florida plan predicted would happen, did not occur. In fact, minority enrollment actually flowed upwards toward the flagship universities. Combined, Florida State University and the University of Florida enrolled 577 more African-American and Hispanic first-time-in-college students than were enrolled last year." Sirberus 12:33, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

New pages for faculty and alumni

I established new pages for notable fsu faculty here:Florida State University Notable Faculty and notable fsu alumni here: Florida State University Notable Alumni. Please add additional faculty and alumni names to those pages.Sirberus 21:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Merger with song

Yes to merge. If this song is really important, it should be merged with FSU. Decoratrix 20:56, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

No to merge. We appear to already have a version. I like Porsche's idea.Sirberus 00:35, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

No to merge. I think it's more appropriate to merge it with this article instead. It's the fight song (athletics), not the alma mater.--Porsche997SBS 20:01, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Panama City Campus

Please add FSU Panama City campus information.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.237.178.195 (talk • contribs) 00:17, 5 May 2007 (UTC).

Will do.Sirberus 18:23, 5 May 2007 (UTC)