Talk:Flag of Japan

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Good article Flag of Japan has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.
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[edit] Former flag?

So what was the flag before 1999 then? Thanks. PizzaMargherita 10:17, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Emphasis is on "formally adopted". -Jefu 16:19, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Right. I see. So what does that mean in practical terms? And are there any other flags around the world that are not yet "formally adopted"? Thanks. PizzaMargherita 17:13, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
In practical term, it meant nothing for most people because they did use it as de facto national flag anyway. However those opposing adoption could claim freedom of speech to not to use "national flag"(quoted because technically it wasn't from their viewpoint) and argue that it was unconstitutional to enforce or promote its usage in public places because it was nothing more than "belief". --Revth 06:25, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

hi i am martina thank you for letting me use this information for my project i have put your website address so more people can visit this site many thanks martina (Moved from main article). NawlinWiki 11:20, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I have a ww2 flag from the battle of Okinawa. It is red base with a white rising sun thick fabric. I have yet to see another like it. Does anyone have info on it? August 7, 2006

Perhaps it is a home made flag, since there is a lot of homemade flags used during the war and carried by soldiers to use as good luck. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 03:57, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps,but the quality seems better than something homeade. I thought that maybe the white on red (rather than the opposite) may have been designated for a certain division of the military. 0955 hrs. August 19, 2006

My only other guess is a military flag, but for whom or what, I cannot tell you. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 16:55, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Note under Military flag

I have added an 'be careful' note under the Military session.

Do not delete the note since some designers often misuse the flag or use the flag as a base of design and got their products banned in China and Korea.

The note is not judging the rightfulness of the 'offensive feeling' or the banning. It's pure NPOV and informational.

I live in Taiwan. I personally don't find that flag offensive but some of us do.timdream 16:12, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

The Rising Sun naval flag is used in the states too by Japanophiles or by other groups, so it is not the first nor last it will happen. I seen clothing makers in China use the swastika in the past, which got folks in trouble. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 16:52, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
I've add the so-called source upon your request - a link to zh.wikipedia. That was an event about an actress got boycotted because she was found in photos dressing clothes with the flag design. No official banning was in place I must admit. These kind of reaction was little known to English-speaking World but well known in Chinese-speaking world. I think people out there should know. Being advocated by a nationalism gov't, WW II is something not that easy to forget. timdream 18:07, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Hey, she has an English wikipedia entry! - timdream 18:14, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
I took the second link to the news article and I put it in the article. For future reference, it is a good idea to use actual news articles as sources instead of other Wikipedia articles, given the nature of how we are (as in, anyone can change anything). User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 18:34, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Top Importance

This article shouldn't really be rated top importance unless everyone agrees, so I down graded it for the moment. MightyAtom 07:19, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I was the one who put it at the top-rated, since, IMHO, national symbols should be top rated in national wikiprojects. I also asked the WPJ permission to make it a top importance. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 13:37, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Current flag inspired by Tokugawa?

Is it true that the current national flag of Japan is somehow or in some way influenced by the battle flag of the Tokugawa clan during the Battle of Sekigahara? Just curious to know... --Shenshuai (not logged).

I would not be surprised, but I am going to find out later. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 18:33, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
It seems to me that I remember the banner being most associated in that period with Date Masamune. Pat Payne 19:09, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Flag book

I am getting a flag book from Japan from Japanese vexillologist Nozomi Kariyasu that was authored by him. I am going to see if that book will have information that could be of use for the article. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 01:35, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] merge tagging

I have tagged the list to be merged into this article, as most of the information is overlapping and would be more accessible here. Chris 04:02, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I support it. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 04:11, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I also support it - the List of... article adds nothing. Number 57 16:49, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Oppose - If you look at the template at the bottom of List of Japanese flags (Template:Lists of flags), you will see that most large countries a separate pages for their flags - one for the national flag, and the other for all other flags (including sub-divisions). The list article should have all of the prefectures listed with their flags - to mirror other countries flags pages and to add additional content unique from Flag of Japan. I think this was the purpose of "List of Japanese flags", but was never fully implemented. I will begin to populate the prefecture flags. I think that the "Imperial" and "Prefectural" sections of this article should be moved, but will hold off until after this discussion. --Scott Alter 02:04, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Oppose for the same reason Scott said. I posted on the Wikiproject Japan page about my suggestion to addd the prefecture flags. But as for the sections of the article to be removed, I would just remove some illusrations for now until we beef up the article, since my intent is make this featured somehow. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 02:56, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Most of the content on this page is better suited for List of Japanese flags, which is what I think should be moved. As I see it, this article should be about the one Flag of Japan - the Nisshōki (日章旗 "sun flag")/Hinomaru (日の丸 "sun disc"). Everything else belongs on the list page. Unfortunately, there is only the introduction that is relevant to the national flag, so moving everything to the other page would leave little here. I'm not sure which content you want to beef up, but I think the list article would be more appropriate to try to feature (since I think you want to feature the variety of Japanese flags, rather than the one national flag). Maybe the list article should be renamed Flags of Japan if you want to have explanatory text in addition to the images. This schema would then parallel Flags of the United States and Flags of Germany. --Scott Alter 07:15, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
We need more content about the Japanese flag, but we can describe about historical flags or other kinds of flags; but a move of this article would be out of the question in my view. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 17:38, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
I didn't mean moving the article. I just think that the content of the Prefecture and Municipal sections of Flag of Japan belong in List of Japanese flags and not here. The Prefecture and Municipal flags are not the "Flag of Japan". They are Flags of Japan, that belong in List of Japanese flags. --Scott Alter 17:20, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kind of on the subject

I've done some data shuffling between Flag of Japan and List of Japanese flags.

  • Organized Flag of Japan so it keeps the description of each category of flag with an image example, and a pointer to List of Japanese flags which have the lists.
  • Merged the prefectural tables.
    • No use in having a table on each page.
    • Some flags had a newer SVG version, used those. Will ask Wikipedia:Graphic Lab to SVGize the rest if they have the time.
    • Kept/added some descriptions.
  • Added municipal list of flags/symbols... Not all of em are there, just some major cities.

Also, I'm opposed to the merge and suggest Flag of Japan be renamed to Flags of Japan. That about covers it. --LeoNomis 11:34, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

You got your graphic lab right here :)Anyways, I plan on making more images of Japanese flags (including the Z flag, which from what I heard from Japanese vexillologists, it is a popular flag). However, some of the changes you made to the article, I will revert back. The first section was our leading paragraph, along with the image. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 19:26, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Adopted date

For now, the first adopted date is described as 27 Jan 1870 in the article. It is wrong. 27 Feb 1870 is correct because that "27 Jan Meiji 3" is date of the luner calender. In Japan, the Solar calender started on Meiji 4 (1871). This point in JAWP has already been corrected. --125.0.91.246 12:36, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA Passed

I have passed this article's GA because I feel it fulfills the GA criteria. It's a complete article and interesting to read. Suggestions for the future - more in-line cites never hurt anyone. Cheers, Corvus coronoides talk 20:06, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] No mention of controversy (major ellision)

This article has no mention of the numerous legal cases regarding teachers who refused to sing the anthem or fly the flag etc. this is a major ellision of information. Ling.Nut 12:32, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Good article reassessment of article (may lose GA status)

Hello, see my comment immediately above this one, then read my lengthy comments at Good article reassessment. I'm truly sorry — I just can't in good conscience allow the GA to stand uncontested, with so much crucial information omitted. I will be happy to retract the GAR if all info (properly sourced!) is added. Ling.Nut 12:53, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Work with me and all of the issues will be solved. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 21:18, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
I commented at WP:GAR, but let me elaborate on my point. I think there is confusion as to the distinction between the "flag of Japan" and "Hinomaru and "flags in Japan". This article is, in its current state, about the latter. I was a bit surprised to find that the article talks about imperial flag, subnational flags, etc. So, what should we do? One solution would be to create an article entitled Symbolism in Japan or something where the stuff in the article that is tangentially related to flag of Japan can be put. In any rate, the focus of the article is a problem, it seems to me. -- Taku 22:22, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
The ja article corresponding to this one contains (if brief) mention of the use of Flag of Japan by right-wing activists or perception of the flag in Asian countries. So, I guess those points can be used to expand the article. -- Taku 22:27, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
And that is my fault. When I wrote about the flags of Belarus, Lithuania (which are FA, btw), I was asked to include flags that are related in some degree. What I wanted to do with the last section is show that the Hinomaru itself has spawned other flags, such as the Rising Sun flag used by the Navy. About the controversy with the flag, I covered it in a manner which I see now as very, very short. If you can add a section about it, I can try and fix up the English to the best of my knowledge. The only changes I done so far was to remove the section on the civilian ensigns used after WW2. I also removed the images from that section too. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 22:40, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

The article Kimi ga Yo (Japanese national anthem) cites some articles that discuss the issue of the flag also (such as this). You may write a paragraph or two on the issue by referring to them. --Saintjust 02:29, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Please see the long footnote in Occupation of Japan, and related discussion in talk! Ling.Nut 06:17, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
You mean the issue of SCAP restricting the use of the sun flag during the post-war occupation period? --Saintjust —Preceding comment was added at 06:40, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
Some objected to the heavy coverage of the ensigns, because they were not national flags. I had to reword it. I also removed the images before, but was undone by another user. I am debating to replacing the ensign images with that of the "Z" flag or an example of a warlord flag from the samurai era. I did some editing to Kimi ga Yo, so I can take some of the sentences there and work them here. I also kindly request that some of the sections that I have seemed to miss here, but do exist on Japanese Wikipedia, can be translated and sent here. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 07:07, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
Objection to coverage in this article of the military variants of the Hinomaru — the Hachijō-Kyokujitsuki war flag and the (in)famous naval ensign — would seem unwarranted: these are flags that represent the nation of Japan just as much as the Hinomaru does, though in special (military) contexts. The objection to prefectural flags, flags of the Imperial Family, etc. being covered here does, on the other hand, seem helpful to sharpening the focus of this article. List of Japanese flags does seem a better place to cover flags used in Japan that represent things other than the nation of Japan. --ScottMainwaring 07:42, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
They are not objecting to the military flags at all, they are more thinking about the flags of the prefectures and of the cities. Imperial, i'm tossed up over that one. Honestly, as long as I am working with the people who want to question the GA status of the article, it should be fine. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 08:08, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Controversy section added. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 09:01, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm quite late but here goes. I should have made it clear that I'm not objecting to the military variants. They are closely related and apparently belong here. I didn't know about List of Japanese flags and it seems a good idea (per my early post) to move materials about prefectural and imperial flags over there. Are we agreed with this? I will be (or anyone can) making this change if no one seems to object. -- Taku 22:01, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

About translation. I am quite happy to translate stuff in the corresponding ja article to here, when I have time. Just so you know. -- Taku 22:02, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

About the subnational flags, I remember I had to add them into the Flag of Lithuania article in order for it to become FA. I noticed that people want to see what other flags are used inside the country, so I had to include various governmental, subnational, etc. Also, the last section with derivatives, I wanted to showcase a few flags that were inspired by the Hinomaru. Also, a question; should we include a list of days to fly the Hinomaru? User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 01:08, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
On the English Wikipedia, verifiable English-language sources are better than verifiable Japanese language sources. Time to search JSTOR and LexisNexis. Ling.Nut 01:28, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Right, but you had some doubts about some of the English sources I used. If it is some comfort, the Japanese sources I used in the subnational flags are repeated in English at the FOTW page. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 01:33, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

(undent) Those other sources smelled a bit too much like personal webpages! Come on, we can find referen ces in academic journals and books... Ling.Nut 01:40, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that some of them only contain the information that is critical to a decent understanding of flag study. In our case, they are the only English sources for some of the flag technical aspects. If I find pages about, lets say, military flags of Japan, I can see what I can do about sourcing, but I would not be surprised if I find them in Japanese. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 02:19, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
I think I have an idea; we should keep the laws that the FOTW site mentions as a list of references, since whatever the Japanese law says is exactly what FOTW has. The examples I provide is the military flags. I don't know what other English sources we could use for the actual flags themselves, but for the news stories and such, let's use all English for that. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 02:37, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
[1] might work for us. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 02:41, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Some relevant news stories would be [2] [3] [4] [5] [6]. Note that Japan Times is known for liberal slant, so they don't necessarily reflect mainstream views. -- Taku 08:08, 4 December 2007 (UTC) Sorry. I didn't realize some are already mentioned in the article. -- Taku 08:17, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

No problem, thanks for looking. I added one more from this list you gave. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 08:26, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I've closed the GAR. The discussion is now in the archives. Geometry guy 17:23, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Editing as a form of conversation

  • Hi, I'm gonna start copying stuff from Occupation of Japan, plus some other stuff, into the History section of this article. Feel free to edit as I go, if you think it needs it.
  • Do you think the history section should be first? I think both ways (history first, or current order of subtopics) are logical...
  •  :-) Ling.Nut 07:58, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
    • That's fine; I done exactly that with regards to the ensign.
    • Sure, I done it for the featured article Flag_of_Lithuania.
    • I hope these are the edits you seek for the article to stay GA. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 08:02, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] move & rename section; Any objections?

I think the "Historical" section should be renamed "History" and moved immediately below the WP:LEDE. Any objections? Ling.Nut 07:58, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Priority conflict?

I think I and Zscout370 have different priorities in mind. To be honest, I have zero interest in whether this article has GA status or not. All I care is to expand the article (in particular in terms of breath). On the other hand, I can tell he cares a lot about the status. I really don't think this rather philosophical conflict can be reconciled. Thoughts? -- Taku (talk) 09:13, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

The reason why I do not want this to be delisted from GA is that, from what I notice now, it is a very, very long waiting game. I deal with it a lot and the time for articles to be checked is longer and longer. For exampled, I placed an article there on Nov 18 (won't say which one) and I do not wish for this article to linger there for weeks on end. I want to work very hard to prevent it from being delisted so I can just edit it and keep it at this status. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 09:21, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
As for can it be reconciled, sure. All I ask is that with anything you wish to add to the article, try to have a source on hand. If you are not able to format it, or just do not know how, look for a program called "wikicite." That will tell you how to do it in the way that I have been doing it. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 09:27, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Let me be more frank then. Why is it such a big deal? GA status. I mean the waiting game a problem? Why are you in hurry? All I'm asking is let me (and others) to edit the article in the way it might result in delisting. I know how to cite sources but sometimes I can't find them; maybe because I need to consult some offline sources. What you are asking isn't a universal practice. People add materials without sources, if they look ok, non-controversial. You are not against that in general right? Like I said above, it is more important for me to expand the article and it is more important for you to keep the status. That's the conflict. But anyway I don't have a problem with leaving the article to your hands. -- Taku (talk) 11:13, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
I do not want absolute control of the article, I was just in panic mode. Now, the GAR is closed and the article still will have its' status. Now, we could try and play around with the article some more. Also, Taku, some of your edits I did put back into the article, since I found sources after I removed them. However, Taku, I don't think you worked with me much, except for the photograph of Yasuo Fukuda, the Prime Minister of Japan. When I work on articles, I do not like tags that deal with "citation needed" or anything along that sort. I understand that is different from most articles and different from most experiences you and others have. I do not want to be a total control freak, I do not want to [WP:OWN|own]] this article from anyone else. However, I believe we should try, with other articles related to Japan, to start getting quality articles and get it similar to this. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 17:49, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
I actually meant more like this: since I'm quite busy with my real life right now, I just don't have time or energy to involve in some (if minor) dispute. I still contribute to the article by adding sourced materials. Now, here is my response. While I understand your allergy to the cleanup tags, I disagree respectfully. I think you brought a good point; I believe it is more important to improve the article in terms of "quantity" before worrying about "quality". To me, an article that is well-written, well-sources but lacks some important facts is useless. That is, well-developed articles beat well-sources ones. Anyway, like I said, I don't want to engage in a philosophical dispute, which I usually enjoy if I'm not busy. -- Taku (talk) 10:38, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Since the urgency is now gone, I will just see what happens with the article while I focus on other things IRL]. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 18:56, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Flag days

Do we think we can include a list of days the flag is requested to be flown? I am not sure if the list at this government file corresponds with what I have on a flag I was mailed from Tokyo-Prefecture. The first two Kanji are hard to read, but from what I can tell, it is the Emperor's Birthday and Labor Thanksgiving. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 07:37, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I had no idea that there is a list of days when the flag is requested to be flown. I mean, "required by law"? That would prove extremely controversial. By the way, the reading of your kanji is correct. I also think the use of a government-provided date is non-NPOV. In the issue of the flag of Japan, one point view is the government's and using it as if it is a fact is far from being neutral. I think we need some kind of secondary sources on this matter. In any rate, I'm surprised to find there is such a list. -- Taku (talk) 08:56, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
I wanted a list to sound in a way that says "While it is not legally required to fly the Hinomaru on these days, here are some holidays that the flag is flown." As for where the flag maker got the list, I have no clue. However, the flag maker on the package is "Mikado." If I know the kanji or any specific terms I need to look for in Japanese, I can try and look myself. I ask about the list is that other flag articles have a list of legal flag days (Lithuania, Mexico is ones that I can remember to some degree). There is no rush, we can get this task done whenever. (I partially wanted to use my new camera to see what other flag related images we needed for this article, and maybe the ja.wikipedia article). User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 09:14, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
I am going to try out an idea, if you think it is POV, you are welcome to revert it. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 03:09, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree that it would be nice if we can just tell "here are some holidays that the flag is flown". The problem is it's not that simplistic, as far as I know. I tried to add this (the use of flag) to the article, basically by translating stuff in the corresponding Japan article, but couldn't find sources online. (We need to be careful with FUTON bias; for example, the ja article says that there was a flag-burning incident in 1971 in uk, but couldn't find any news story on it.). I think there are some other incidents of flag burning. Also, we should expand on the references to the flag in literature such as movies. Things of this sort should add much more depth to the article than simply the list of days. (Of course, it's very time-consuming work, though) -- Taku (talk) 06:18, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

With the flag burning, or just desecration of the Hinomaru, it happens monthly. If it is not Koreans or Chinese burning/tearing the flag, it is someone else using the flag to demonstrate against whaling. There was a protest in Australia last month where a girl sat on a white cloth, and poured red paint all over herself and got a bunch on the cloth. As for a list of days, I saw something mentioned at [7] about the flag days, but I am not sure if they are just mentioned in law. I don't have much about the cultural impact of the Hinomaru, but I know other Japanese flags (mostly the naval ensign) has a huge impact in the US. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 07:08, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Right. It's no-brainer, but the article should mention the protesters burn hinomaru on occasions; the 1987 one in the article is probably the best known in Japan. (I just can't find much reference to it, maybe because of the age.) By cultural impact, I meant, the hinomaru has the important symbolic meaning, i.e., rising sun, as the article notes, and this point in the article can be expanded, as the corresponding ja article has some on this. So, you know, I (or we) have good ideas for the expansion of the article. I, for one, just don't have time. Finding sources just takes so much time. -- Taku (talk) 11:54, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, about the protocol section. Not only it is too detailed, I find it not much relevant, either, because I don't think many Japanese people know it, and so it feels so arcane. Maybe it's written in some law or ordinals and so is official, but if it's not practiced actually, then well it doesn't belong to the article. -- Taku (talk) 12:01, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I been asked to include flag protocol before in articles about flags. I understand it is not practice much, so I removed the non-important stuff. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 19:10, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] GA Sweeps

This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force. I believe the article currently meets the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. The only small comment I have is that those sources in Japanese or Chinese characters should be translated in parenthesis to ease understanding by English speakers. The article history has been updated to reflect this review. Regards, Jackyd101 (talk) 17:11, 26 March 2008 (UTC)