Talk:Flag of Armenia

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Flag of Armenia is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do.

This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on March 26, 2008.

	Article milestones

Date

Process

Result

January 10, 2007

Peer review

Reviewed

January 20, 2007

Featured article candidate

Promoted

Current Status: Featured article

Armenia Portal

Flag of Armenia is within the scope of WikiProject Armenia, an attempt to better improve and organize information in articles related or pertaining to Armenia and Armenians. If you would like to contribute or collaborate, you could edit the article attached to this page or visit the project page for further information.

This article has been rated as FA-Class on the Project's quality scale.

Heraldry and Vexillology Portal

Flag of Armenia is within the scope of the Heraldry and vexillology WikiProject, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of heraldry and vexillology. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.

This article has been rated as FA-Class on the quality scale. (FAQ).

[edit] Comment

In determining what color to consider the bottom (it looks yellow-orange to me), which set does this flag belong in, List of flags with yellow or List of flags with orange?? 66.32.125.39 18:39, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

It's orange. Xenophon777 (talk) 17:35, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 1885 Flag

Hmm, I found some websites that contradict what is written here:

So, is it horizontal red, green, and white bands or vertical red, green, and blue.--Crzycheetah 22:35, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, these websites do not contradict this article. In fact, they reaffirim the following passage from it:

While in France, Alishan also designed a second flag, identified today as the "Nationalist Armenian Flag." It too was a tricolor, however, it was a vertical tricolor, like the French flag. Its colors were red, green, and blue respectively, representing the band of colors that Noah saw after landing on Mount Ararat. -- Clevelander 23:48, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Correct me If I am wrong, but the flag in the article has red, green, and white colors while in those websites, the colors are red, green, and blue. So, it's not just a matter of alignment, but colors too.--Crzycheetah 00:04, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Have you seen this website?: http://www.orient.am/armenia/flag.html -- Clevelander 00:07, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I stand corrected. P.S. I suggest you to compare the coat of arms(1918) on orient website with the one you colored.--Crzycheetah 00:24, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I see. I'll fix that when I get a chance. -- Clevelander 00:27, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mising flags

Arsacid flags, Marzpaanate banners (looked like the iron cross), Bagratid flags and the various Cilician flag.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 16:52, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Some of those flags are in this website http://www.armenianheritage.com/hiflag.htm but I don't know if it is copyrighted or not. ROOB323 18:56, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

The Marzbanate period flag looks doable in Inkscape, but not sure when I can draw it. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 20:17, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

That's too many flags. Why don't we create a new article and name it "list of Armenian flags", for example, and then link to it in this article?--Crzy cheetah 04:32, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm up for that. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 04:34, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I have just created the List of Armenian flags. All of the other flags can be listed there.

[edit] Featured Article

Nice work everyone who contributed to this article in making this article one of the good articles in wikipedia. ROOB323 22:26, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A few points

Before this makes the main page:

What's the Armenian Supreme Council? Is it the Supreme Soviet? If so, that would probably be the more familiar term.
What's the significance of the 2006 law? Did it change the 1990 flag at all?
There's still some confusion about what flag was being used between August 1990 and September 1991. Did the SSR flag remain official until '91? Were both flags used for a year? This says the Soviet-era flag was used until 1990; the article implies 1991.
Could we put in the Armenian name for the flag? Biruitorul (talk) 04:12, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
- Armenian Supreme Council is similar to what the Supreme Soviet was for Armenian SSR. The key word is similar.
- It created the rules on how to use the flag. The Usage section lists them.
- In August 1990, Armenia declared its independence from the Soviet Union and adopted this tricolor, but it gained its independence in September 1991. This is explained at the end of the Armenian SSR subsection.
- What would it add to the article?--Crzy cheetah 08:01, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
  - Well, put it this way: each republic had its own mini-Supreme Soviet along the lines of the central one -- see Supreme Soviet. The question is: is Հայկական ՍՍՀ Գերագույն Խորհուրդ what this article gives as "Armenian Supreme Council"? Because if so, "Armenian Supreme Soviet" ("Soviet" of course meaning "Council") would be the preferable translation. (For instance, "Armenian Supreme Soviet" gives 152 Google Books hits while "Armenian Supreme Soviet" gives just 8.)
  - OK, then what I would do is write "On June 15, 2006, the Law on the National Flag of Armenia, governing its usage, was passed by the Armenian Parliament." ... "The 2006 law concerning the national flag of Armenia..." That way there's less ambiguity.
  - The way the current text reads, it seems as though Armenia had two flags for a year. However, what seems to be the case is that the tricolor was adopted in August 1990 and with that, the SSR flag abandoned then and there. If you read it the same way, I'd suggest changing the caption to "1952-1990", and changing the text to "This flag remained unaltered until August 1990, when Armenia formally declared its intention to become sovereign and independent of the Soviet Union, and the pre-Soviet tricolor was immediately restored. The tricolor had been used previously by Armenian national movements since May 1989, when the Communist authorities legalized its display in the face of increasing nationalist agitation."
  - You're right - I thought the other Flag FAs had it, but I was wrong. Biruitorul (talk) 16:07, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
    - I've made the changes on your first two points.(Thanks!) As for the flag explanation, you're assuming that the SSR flag was abandoned in August 1990. Outside of Armenia, the SSR flag was still used to represent Armenia, since Armenia was officially part of the Soviet Union. In September 1991, Armenia officially became an independent republic and that's when the SSR flag was abandoned.--Crzy cheetah 19:56, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for those changes. Let me try to work through point 3 a little more, though, just to make sure the article is accurate.

The Supreme Soviets were the legislatures of the republics, and they had authority over national symbols. For most of the USSR's history, this was largely symbolic; they did what the centre told them. In 1988/9, though, it began to matter more as opposition movements took control of the Soviets and they began to function somewhat like Western parliaments. (It was in May 1990 that the nationalist Ter-Petrosian's APNM won power.) Now, the political chronology is as follows:

23 August 1990: the Armenian SSR declared its sovereignty and changed its name to the Republic of Armenia.
February 1991: Supreme Soviet approved referendum on independence.
July 1991: Armenia and Georgia sign a Treaty on Interstate Relations. (So Armenia was already behaving like a state.)
21 September 1991: Armenia held a referendum on secession from the USSR.
23 September 1991: the results were announced (99.3% for independence), which immediately led the Supreme Soviet to unanimously declare independence.
2 March 1992: Armenia joined the UN.

"On May 11 [1989] a mass demonstration of hundreds of thousands of Armenians was permitted, and the protesters appeared with the tricolor, the flag of the brief days of Armenian independence, to demand reunification [with Karabakh] and the release of all Armenian political prisoners. For the first time, high-level officials of the Armenian government attended the rally. During this same period, the first secretary of the Armenian Communist party took the unprecedented step of urging for the official recognition of the tricolor flag and of the pre-Soviet independence day, May 28." (Political Communication: Engineering Visions of Order in the Socialist World, p. 102, by Sarah Sanderson King, Donald P. Cushman, 1992, SUNY Press.)

"The new Armenian leader Suren Harutiunian quickly decided to run before the prevailing nationalist wind. A week after he took office, on 28 May 1988, Harutiunian allowed the outlawed flag of the First Armenian Republic, the red-blue-and orange tricolor, to be unfurled for the first time in almost seventy years in Yerevan. (Black Garden: Armenia and Azerbaijan Through Peace and War, pp.60-1, by Thomas De Waal, 2003, NYU Press.)

Now, you write, "Outside of Armenia, the SSR flag was still used to represent Armenia". But where? Inside Armenia (which is what really matters, I would submit), the tricolor was used. Outside the USSR, probably no flag was used officially, since Armenia, not yet independent, wasn't part of any international organisations. In Moscow: well, I don't know. But keep in mind that the Supreme Soviet - legally constituted, operating fully within the laws of the USSR and the Armenian SSR - was the relevant decision-making body, and it decided to change the flag in August 1990, meaning that at that point, the tricolor became Armenia's sole flag. So let me propose a revised text, to be added after "a horizontal blue stripe was added".

"In late May 1988, amid rising nationalist tensions, Armenia's new Communist party leader allowed the banned tricolor of the DRA to fly in Yerevan for the first time in over sixty years.^[1] A year later, following a mass demonstration where the tricolor was flown, he urged its official recognition.^[2] This came on 24 August 1990, a day after the Armenian Supreme Soviet declared the republic's sovereignty. At that point, just over a year before Armenia gained formal independence from the USSR, the tricolor replaced the 1952 flag." Biruitorul (talk) 23:23, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

All right, you make the necessary changes, since you did al the research. I am not opposing it.--Crzy cheetah 23:46, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you; I went ahead and modified it. If, of course, you have disagreements, do let me know, since you were much more involved in the article as a whole - my changes were mostly cosmetic. But I think it reads more clearly now. Also, what do you think of this box for the national anthem quote? If you like it and put it in, you may wish to use a <br clear="all"> tag for readability. Biruitorul (talk) 00:51, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

If there was a foreign nickname for this flag, similar to what the Hinomaru is, I can see including that in the article. But since there is none, we don't have to put the Armenian name into this article (except as a interwiki link). Overall, I like the work that was done on this article and congrats for getting this featured. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 01:28, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I like the changes you made. I think that box would look better if there was some text next to it, but since there is no text, I prefer it to stay as is. --Crzy cheetah 01:36, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Not a problem - I'm all for content over decoration, and the current look is just fine. Biruitorul (talk) 02:30, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Comment, I'm not quite sure if I understand this discussion but I think the name of the flag in Armenian is relevant, particularly if it's anything other then flag of Armenia regardless of whether it's a nick name. Even if it's 'tricolour' in Armenian, I think that is relevant and should be in the article. For example, Flag of France gives several common names in French, particularly relevant in this case because 'le tricolore', which it is sometimes called in English is not evidentally actually used in French. Flag of the People's Republic of China and Flag of India also give the names in Mandarin and Hindi respectively. Flag of Malaysia gives the recently adopted name in Malay, particularly relevant in this case because it may sometimes be called by the name in English in Malaysia (I've never heard the name 'Stripes of Glory' actually used). Even Flag of Russia gives the name in Russian in the infobox... Heck Tricolore gives the names in various languages (although the Russian one doesn't seem to agree with the article). I guess the name of the flag is Հայաստանի դրոշը but I'm not sure so I'll leave it to someone else to add if relevant Nil Einne (talk) 10:22, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I've added the Armenian translation of the word "tricolour', but I still don't understand why it's needed. --Crzy cheetah 20:09, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Copyright violation

Hate to do this, but there appears to be copyright violation on this page from one of the sources used: [1].

First para of 'History' is word for word almost identical to the first para on the page 'Flag of Armenia' (link given above).
Second para of 'History' (19th Century) starts with a very close paraphrase of the sixth para of 'Flag of Armenia'.
Fourth para of 'History' (Democratic Republic of Armenia) contains another direct lift, taken from the second to last para of 'Flag of Armenia'.

Site they are taken from states 'Copyright Armenian Heritage Organisation' on its front page, although the page the material is taken from says that it comes from the Atlas of Historical Armenia by H. K. Babessian. Not sure whether that means the source itself is a copyvio.

I would just delete the offending bits, but I'm a bit uncertain of the protocol for a TFA! 4u1e (talk) 08:37, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, fixed those by re-writing or presenting as straight quotes. Given that someone cut and pasted those bits into this article, there will probably be others based on the other sources. If anyone knows that they have cut and pasted material from somewhere they shouldn't have (i.e. pretty much anywhere) it would be quicker if they fixed this themselves, rather than me trawling through the article and sources. 4u1e (talk) 18:12, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I personally find it's helpful to find who inserted the copyvio material, firstly to warn them about the unacceptability of their behaviour, and secondly it helps to track down any other copyvio material they may have contributed Nil Einne (talk) 19:09, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately this violation appears to have been inserted by [2] User talk:Crzycheetah. As a heavy contributor to this article and wikipedia, I hope it was an accident and a once off... Nil Einne (talk) 19:17, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Hopefully. I've since removed another one, so I'm not sure. I'll drop a note at his talk page. Cheers. 4u1e (talk) 19:28, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The Usage section can't be considered a copyvio, since that source just copies the law of the Armenian flag. How else can we put what the law says without losing some important facts? --Crzy cheetah 19:33, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The wording you've taken seems to me to be somebody's summary of the law, not the wording of the law itself. If I'm wrong and it's a direct quote from wherever the law is recorded, put it in quotes and reference directly to the law itself, if possible. 4u1e (talk) 19:36, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

That's the problem I had while working on this article. There are little or no official sources for most of the information that should be here. That's why I used secondary sources. This website is the only source that mentions what the law states.--Crzy cheetah 19:46, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

That's frustrating, but it doesn't give us the right to shortcut the standards of wikipedia. The source you have used is FOTW's english translation of a French news story reporting on the original ~~Albanian~~ Armenian law announcement. If the two translations contain any degree of unique effort then simply copying them would surely infringe the copyright of one or both of the translators. 4u1e (talk) 22:45, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

All right, you are asking me to reword. Then please tell me how else I can say "public buildings"? Would "buildings belonging to the public" be acceptable? I just don't see it. I mean if I reword any of this, it will not make any sense anymore. --Crzy cheetah 23:18, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I just reworded what I could. Hopefully, this is acceptable now.--Crzy cheetah 23:34, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

What I'm saying is to take the safe option and just present it as a direct quote from your source. If possible, it would be better sourced from the original, rather than from FOTW, but I accept that you have looked into this. Is there any other material on this page that was cut and pasted? I'm sorry to keep on about this, but it's really important that we are not seen to copy the work of others. 4u1e (talk) 08:33, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

(→)Hm, so by adding "according to.." we avoid copyvio? I am confused about all this copyvio stuff right now. All of the information in this page is taken from the sources I listed. I thought it would violate WP:OR otherwise. It's weird that it violates WP:COPYVIO now.--Crzy cheetah 09:00, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Copyright is to do with the words used, not primarily the information they convey. If you quote someone, that is you say 'here is what so and so said' and present their words within quotes, then you are not violating their copyright. It has to be a shortish quote, of course; you can't reproduce the whole of Harry Potter and the Deathly Boredom and preface it with 'J.K. Rowling says:' :). You can't reproduce their words as your own, which is what we appear to be doing if the words are the same, or very nearly the same, and not presented as a quote. Hopefully what you have done in most of the article is to take the information from various sources and reproduce it in your own words. If there are any other places where this is not what you've done (i.e. you've cut and pasted), it would be helpful if you could point them out. Cheers. 4u1e (talk) 10:08, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I found a copy of the Law, but it's in Armenian. I translated the part about usage of the flag and replaced the direct quote from the FOTW website. I would like you to check my translation with theirs and tell me whether it still violates their copyright. Thanks.--Crzy cheetah 21:34, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't violate FOTW's copyright - the wording's different (although note that I'm not a lawyer :)). Is that what you meant? Some things just can't be worded differently in any translation, but the para immediately after the list of places for flying the flag is worded quite differently to FOTW's version, which is the point I'm making about not just taking someone else's words. 4u1e (talk) 00:31, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

P.S. It should probably still be in quotes, but I'm less sure about that, because the translation's yours. 4u1e (talk) 00:32, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your help here. I didn't write down all the buildings that were there, so technically speaking, this wasn't a direct quote. :) --Crzy cheetah 03:01, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] usage section

i think there should be a little more explanation in the usage section. for example, on national flag days, who is required to fly the flag? everybody? not everybody? what happens if you don't when you're supposed to.. do the flag police come? 82.6.96.66 (talk) 13:37, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

If there was a reliable source, it would have been mentioned.--Crzy cheetah 19:48, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Russian sources with other flags

More and more armenian flags, collected by Athanatoi (Russian text is published under GFDL). Also, flags at vexillographia.ru. Please, use them! There are flags, that can not be found in this featured article. --FHen^(ru) 19:01, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Please, pay special attention at this page. There is a symbolism of Rubenid flags' color and the flag of "Russian vice-king", which may be flag of Armenian meliks (See source).--FHen^(ru) 19:19, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Your first source is unreliable, since it's just a blog. The vexillographia.ru website was used as a source. As for other flags, you can take a look at the List of Armenian flags page.--Crzy cheetah 19:59, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The focus of the article should be the national flag; we can't cover every single flag possible related to Armenia. That is why we have that list Crzy pointed out. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 20:09, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Concise featured article

Never thought that a concise article would make it as a featured article! Meursault2004 (talk) 19:43, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Every featured article has been concise. Articles that are too long are never featured. Now go and look concise up in a dictionary then look at the articles that have been featured since the system began.

[edit] Armenian Name for Tricolor

Shouldn't a latin alphabet alliteration be provided for the Armentian name? 76.186.118.246 (talk) 05:06, 29 March 2008 (UTC)