User talk:Finnrind

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I try to keep conversations threaded.

I generally reply to posts here on this page. Usually if I post on your talk page I watchlist you.

I check my Norwegian talk more often than this page. If there's an urgency, you may leave a message there.

Contents

[edit] Lough Lene, Turgesius, Collinstown, Fore Abbey, Melaghlin/ Malachy (Máel Sechnaill)

Forgiven, no problem there, but this affaire is quite elaborate and even my family living in the area for generations only allows to understand part of this fantastic story of our shared European history.

When some time ago, in some Goteborg museum in Sweeden I discovered some artifacts from our area (Westmeath / Lake-county), and I can only imagine that many more are disperced through-out Scandanivia. You Can help by un-teasing some part of it out, as Fore Abbey has been a most unfortunate target and almost all of the abbeys treasures are scattered through-out Scandanivian northern Europe, artifacts manufacteured by the Monks in the area even French Benedictin monks from Evreux.

Must go now I'll speak again.... Gavigan

Ok, I'm not sure I understood all of your message waiting for you to speak again. Regards Finnrind 19:21, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re:Tara

Hi. Yes, that was me. Thanks for contacting me and for doing that article. I responded to your query and made slight improvements to the English in your article. Best regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 23:19, 18 March 2007 (UTC)r

Thanks. I removed the [[ ]] around "hosting" in Scotland hma Finnrind 23:30, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Don't see any reason to worry too much about this just now. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 19:22, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Máel Sechnaill/Sechlainn

The easy thing first: Máel (Maíl and Máele are genitive forms) literally means someone who has been tonsured: a monk. As a name, it means "servant". It is usually followed by a saint's name. Máel Sechnaill (Malachy), Servant of Saint Secundus; Máel Coluim (Malcolm), servant of Saint Columba; Máel Isu (Malise), servant of Jesus. You'll see names where the first word is Gille, they have exactly the same general meaning: servant of Saint X. Earl Máel Brigte the Tooth in the Orkneyinga Saga is the servant of Saint Brigit (probably Brigit of Kildare). All of these names can appear as one word rather than two: Máelcoluim, Gillebrigte.

Next, Máel Sechnaill/Máel Sechlainn spelling. the Annals of the Four Masters use quite modern Irish Gaelic spellings of names. Academics tend to avoid those and use older-style ones. According to the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, the first Máel Sechnaill's name is "Máel Sechnaill mac Máele Ruanaid", and that appears to be the correct academic spelling. Neither is right, it's just different sorts of Irish. The name is anglicised, via latin, as Malachy.

The Olaf the White and Amlaíb Conung articles here should be merged so they resemble the one you wrote. My Norwegian is non-existent really, but I think I'll copy you and ccombine the two. I did that for the two (or three) different versions of Rognvald, Earl of Møre.

Finally, so far as I am aware O Corrain (whose first name is spelled in several different ways) is an orthodox and respected Irish historian. He's the man who started the CELT project, author of a fair number of papers and books. He's been a historian a long time: Ireland before the Normans - which was for a long time, and may still be, the best-known popular book on Viking Age Ireland - was published in 1972. Angus McLellan (Talk) 19:51, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

  • A follow-up to my fellow Ollamh Angus. Máel is the Christian Gaelic version of the pagan gaelic prefix, Mug or Mogh (pronounced the same as Worf son of Mogh in Star Trek). Strictly specking, it meant slave but in the sence of a follower or devotee to a particular God or Goddess. The most famous person in Ireland who bore such a name was Mug Nuadat who was an ancester of the Munster dynasty, the Eóganachta. It was used as the nickname for the father of Niall Noigíallach - Eochaid Mugmedon (e.g., Eochaid Slave Lord). In Christian times, it was used in the same sence, as Angus explains above, as a name given in honor of a particular saint or holy person. Nowadays people give their children holy names in exactly the same manner - Patrick, Mohammad, Krishna, Moses, u.n.s. As for O Corrain, you should keep an eye on my contrbutions in the near future, as I am writing an article on him and a number of other Irish historians, archaeologists and academics in general. Have met him myself, and he actually lives only a few miles from me. Slan. Fergananim 17:39, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the statement about the "norse" in relation to Cináed mac Conaing and left the one for 856. Does that seem ok now? Angus McLellan (Talk) 21:58, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Maps, merges

Those maps look quite good. There is a rather crude "Ireland according to Ptolemy" map in User:Angusmclellan/Early Christian Ireland. Feel free to take anything you want from that. It uses overlaying: the syntax is simple enough, but will it work on the Norwegian wiki? The "later Kingdoms" one doesn't link Bréifne, and there's an alternative version in User:Angusmclellan/Eóganachta which might be better.

Merges are proposed with {{mergefrom}} and {{mergeto}}, but Fergananim would be the man to ask about those. Best wishes, Angus McLellan (Talk) 22:54, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks again for your quick reply. (I'm replying here to try to keep the thread together, it is something that is encouraged on the no:wiki, but might be more difficult here??)
It seems the proper templates for overlaying have not been implemented in no:wiki yet. Pity, those maps look realy good. The map in Eóganachta could be useful though. (Is there, btw, a reason why it isn't in the Irland category on commons?? )
Since you linked me to your sandbox(es) I had a look around. Good to see that you are working on Eóganachta, I had a look at the article in tghe mainspace and concluded not to translate it. I'm quite sure I will translate yours when it is done. Do you know if anybody has any serious plans expand Early Medieval Ireland 800–1166. I have started working on such an article for no:wiki, but if anybody has an english version more or less ready for pasting into mainspace, I really ought to wait a bit. A same question could be asked about all those stubs about medieval high kings of Ireland. Finnrind 07:22, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Please take whatever you like from the sandbox stuff. May as well get some use out of it! Angus McLellan (Talk) 18:16, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

lenke

[edit] Kings of Connacht

Thanks. Always glad to be of help.

As regards the map, I agree. The history and geography of the kingdom of Connacht in its heyday (c.800-1202) is a bit mind-boggleing. There are only a handful of good articles that I am aware of on its kings, all the Galway Arch. & Hist. Society Journal. As for Brian's mother, that has being a bit of a puzzle for me too; I presumbe she was of the Ui Bruin Seola sept of the Sil Muirdeag (who later adopted the surname O Flaithertaigh) but last time I looked could not find any such Murchad. Incidently, at that point in time they were still based on a crannog on Lough Cimbe (now Lough Hackett), south-west of Tuam; they were only moved further west into Iar-Connacht by the O Connors in the 12th and 13th century. Cheers, Fergananim 15:50, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Norsemen

Greetings Finnrind

Thanks for your message. I have no objections to your proposed edits. I just wanted to get rid of the nonsense about including the Germans. As you might have noted, I contacted the editor who made this edit [1] so I hope we will not see this again. The definitions I normally go by myself are: Scandinavian peoples: Danes, Norwegians, Swedes, Icelanders and Faroese (although I'd normally only include the latter two in very recent contexts, in contrast to e.g. an article about the Scandinavist movement). When I comes to the Nordic countries, I'd normally include Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Iceland (and the Faroes although the latter is not an independent country). Happy editing. Valentinian T / C 16:11, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Tak for din mail. Jeg har set listen, og jeg kan ikke lide den, men jeg tror at det nok vil være bedst at behandle brugeren her med larmende tavshed i stedet for at opmuntre ham. Vi bør hellere holde et øje på artiklen. Valentinian T / C 21:51, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hvitserk and Halfdan

I have been confused by these two articles for some time. I am aware that some scholars think they are the same person but their stories seem quite different. What source can we cite to show they are identical? Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 21:21, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't have a strong preference one way or the other, though I would lean to keeping the articles separate because it's likely that they refer to different people (Halfdan was king in Jorvik, and Hvitserk reputedly died in Russia). Both need a lot of work and sources added. It's been a while since I read Ragnar's saga. Are Halfdan and or Hvitserk mentioned elsewhere? Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 00:53, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm really not an expert on this, just sort of stumbled over the Hvitserk article and thought it to be an orphaned left over. I do not know which from which sources (the apparently many) who claims an identity between Halfdan and Hvitserk have based their opinion. The solution in norwegian wiki (explaining that this might be two sepraterate persons in one article) or having two articles which bort states that there might be an identity, both have their pro&contra. The easiest way to deal with this now is IMO to leave thing as they were, with additional crossreferences. Accordingly, I will retract my proposal for merger, and make crossreferences. I would be grateful if you would look over the two articles after I've made these edits. Apologise for the inconvenience, thanks for your help. Regards, Finnrind 11:37, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Scots, Attacotti and Deisi

Hi Finnrind. I would like your opinion on the above short addition I made to Prehistoric settlement of Great Britain and Ireland. Cheers. Fergananim 14:23, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:WikiProject Norse history and culture

Please check out this new wikiproject, and sign up if you are interested. No contribution is too small! Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 14:56, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Maybe you shoud add a tag that the wikipropject Norse history etc page is under development. Right now the heading says "Jewish history" and that seems rather odd :-) Finnrind 15:28, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
LOL!!!! Should be fixed now (I borrowed the header from that project) Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 15:34, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Brian's mother

Hi Finnrind,

You were asking about Brian Boru's mother, Bé Binn. As mentioned by Ferganim she was of the Muinter Murchada branch of the Uí Briúin Seólai, one of the three main divisions of the Uí Briúin dynasty (the Síl Muiredaig actually belonged to a different division of this dynasty, the Uí Briúin Aí). Her father was Aurchad son of Murchad who died in 945 as king of West Connacht according to the Annals of Ulster, and king of the Uí Briúin according to the Annals of Inisfallen. (The Uí Briúin kingship would have been a sub-kingship under the Uí Briúin Aí (Síl Muiredaig) over-kingship of Connacht.)

Aurchad's off-spring appear to have married well: Bé Binn's sister Cres is claimed to have been the wife of the Síl Muiredaig king of Connacht, Tadg son of Cathal (d. 956) and mother of his sons Conchobar (ancestor of the Ua Conchobair kings of Connacht), Máel Ruanaid (ancestor of the Ua Máel Ruanaid [later Mac Diarmata] kings of Mag Luirg, and Tadg (ancestor of the Uí Taidg an Teglaig branch of Síl Muiredaig). Another sister, Cainech, may have married into another branch of Uí Briúin Seóla, and been the ancestress of the rival Clann Coscraig sept of that dynasty.

Bé Binn was also the mother of Lochlann and Conchobar, sons of Máel Sechnaill (fl. 1006) of the Corcu Mruad people of North Munster. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.100.253.15 (talk) 11:17, 18 April 2007 (UTC).

Thanks a lot, you seem to be remarkably well informed :-) I'll implement some of this in no:brian Boru (might even write a small stub on Bé Binn, there's not to many historical articles about women.)Finnrind 12:11, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Talk:History of the British Isles

Can you tell if replies to Bastin's incitment have been edited out?

Can you tell if I populated the page History of Britain (the original name of the article). By my reading of this is moving - not blanking or merging.

Is a three word reply blustering - Sonic Youth has contributed to the British Isles naming dispute page.

Have you reached the limits of your Norwegian Peacekeeping duties Aatomic1 11:56, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

(moving new heading to bottom of page before replying) I do not have any opinions about the content of your discussions with Sony-youth or Bastin, nor do I wish to offer an analysis of the edit history of Talk:History of the British Isles. In that sense I have "reached the limits of my Norwegian Peacekeeping duties". If you have been wrongly treated by these users in that discussion you should notify the proper peacekeepers, here that would be the wikipedia administrators.
My comment on your talk page was strictly related to your unconstructive edits of your own talkpage, and what appears to be an unwillingness to answer questions raised by others properly. (I'm still awaiting your answer regarding Airgíalla btw.) Further, all contributors to this project have peace keeping duties, first and foremost in keeping a civil tone in discussions and trying to reply to questions and concerns brought into disussion by others in a helpful and open minded way. In that sense, I sincerely hope I will never reach the limits of my peace keeping duties, neither here or in other wikilanguages where I offer small contributions. Regards, Finnrind 15:28, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Gotcha. I note you have moved my comments to the bottom as you are perfectly entitled to do as this is your page. Likewise I am entitled to arrange my page for my convenience. Inaccurate comments like you have made (on more than one occasion and on unrelated subjects) are not really endearing me to you, especially on my home page. Aatomic1 17:57, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I have moved the your comments to the proper place for new comments (bottom of page), and made an initial note explaining what I have done. There is a difference in arranging a discussion according to wikipedia standards and deleting questions or parts of other users contributions. I see no point in continuing this discussion though, as you apparently find my comments inaccurate and my advice inconvenient. I will not add any more comments to your talk page or make further comments on your own edits there in the future. Happy editing, Finnrind 18:50, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Asking for help

How do I ask for qualified second opinions in an dispute over sources/accuracy (Irish medieval history). The articles in question are Melaghlin and Turgesius, a {{prod}} placed by me in the first one has since been removed. Finnrind 23:31, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

There's third-party observations and requests for comment. Removed {{prod}} tags then should be tagged with {{afd}} tags if you wish for deletion to still occur (as the deletion process says). If you are still unsure, then dispute resolution may give you more ideas. Still stuck? Stick another {{helpme}} tag or contact me. x42bn6 Talk Mess 23:48, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your quick reply. After a glance at [dispute resolution] I think I'll put some more references on the talk page and abide a whileFinnrind 23:57, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gunnhild

Thanks for the info! I will look into it unless you want to try translating that bit from the Norwegian. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 02:55, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

The article (now at Gunnhild Mother of Kings) has been greatly expanded, including references to sources id'ing her as a daughter of Gorm. Interestingly, some genealogy websites suggest that Gunnhild Ozzur's daughter and Gunnhild Gorm's daughter were two different people, both wives of Erik bloodax, but I've found no corroboration in any scholarly sources yet. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 19:37, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] thanks

Just wanted to thank you for clarifications in discussion for Wolf the Quarrelsome. The idea that the death of Brodir was inspired by the death of Judas was a great observation... I'd like to include this idea in the Wolf article -- might you have a reference (could we just link to an account of the death of judas) or would that be considered Original Research?

anyways, thanks for the wisdom! Nonlucent 02:36, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your kind words. I'm sorry to say that this wisdom is indeed not my own (as wikipedia-wisdom should not be), but I really can't remember where I came across this... Since it was just a remark on the talk page I did not cite at the time (and it's been a while...), which means I now do not know how to find it. I would be careful to add such interpretations into an article without citations, and I'm sorry I cannot help you further. Happy editing, Finnrind 17:06, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Áed the Handsome Warrior

Hello Finn, hope you are well. I'll move the article to Áed Findliath, and tidy up all the links, once I've added stuff from Hudson's Oxford DNB article. Regards, Angus McLellan (Talk) 14:24, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm well, thank you, even if I'm not editing much on en:wiki these days... Looking forward to those additions, I'll probalbly translate them into norwegian eventually ;) Finnrind 14:49, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks

Thanks for the message Finnrind. I hope you keep up the good work on English and Norwegian wiki. If you have any questions you need to ask while translating something or what not, feel free to contact me. Best regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 21:38, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, hope to see you around soon... :-) Finnrind 21:40, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Hey, a thanks headings already here. I'll use that! Thanks for the message. I did notice I hadn't seen either of the Norwegian Finns in a while. Hope you'll increase your activities here at some stage in the future, but I guess if no.wiki's getting you then that's just as good. All the best, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 15:47, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Golden age of Ireland (sic)

Saw your comments concerning this. God its awful! However I do applaud Angus's sentiment, as its always easier to destroy than to create .... tempting as it is! Looking forward to exploring your work. Fergananim 22:26, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kind deeds

Spotted you edit on my page - thanks!! Sarah777 (talk) 22:49, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, it was a wrong image description, so out of habit from Commons I had to revert it... Cheers, Finn Rindahl (talk) 19:22, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Columba, Iona, Kells and Dunkeld

A few quotes from Woolf's Pictland to Alba that may be useful:

"The attacks on Iona are usually associated with a project begun in 807 and completed in 814, the building of a new ciuitas,or major church settlement, at Kells by the abbot Cellach of Iona. [fn: AU 807.4 and 814.9] This has been widely interpreted as a reflection of a growing disquiet on Iona in the context of repeated attacks by heathens. The plan may have been to move the relics of St Columba and the headship of the familia from Iona to Kells, more safely located in the interior of Ireland" [p. 59]

"In the Frankish kingdom the news ... inspired Wahalfrid Strabo, a leading scholar of the day, to compose a poem on Blathmac's martyrdom. In this poem, as Clancy points out, Iona is described as an island of the Picts. [fn: Clancy, "Iona in the kingdom of the Picts", Innes Review 55 (2004)] That Iona was in some sense under Constantín's control may also be hinted at by the claim added to a version of the king-list in the reign of Alexander II (1214-49), that Dunkeld was founded by Constantín. Although we cannot know how old this tradition was he would seem an unusual patron to foist upon the Columban cult at a late date. Dunkeld was to become the chief church of Columba in the kingdom of Alba and it is possible that since Pictish overlordship over Dál Riata seems to have been established in 811, while the building of the new ciuitas at Kells was in progress, this reflects a desire by Constantín to keep the relics of Columba in Scotland. Columba was, after all, the apostle of Fortriu, and it is likely that he, and Iona, occupied a special place in the Pictish mentalité." [pp. 64-54]

"[The Chronicle of the Kings of Alba] claims that in his seventh year Cináed 'conveyed the relics of Columba to the church that he had built'. Cináed's seventh year would seem to be c. 849 and under this year the Annals of Ulster record that 'Indrechtach, abbot of Iona, came to Ireland with the relics of Colum Cille'. [fn. AU 849.7] The simplest reading of these two records together would be that Cináed had built a church in Ireland to which Indrechtach was conveying the relics. This, however, seems unlikely and is not the view taken by most historians. The prevailing view among Scottish historians has been that in 849 the relics of Columba were divided between Kells and Dunkeld. This may have happened but there is little hard evidence for this and the clear division between the communities seems to have occurred at a slightly later date." [pp. 98-99]

Hope this helps. All the best, Angus McLellan (Talk) 22:54, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Angus, much appreciated! Finn Rindahl (talk) 18:47, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Oops ... my bad. Was responding to the wrong Finn, ignoring you! He'll be thinking I'm mad, and you that I'm rude. ;) My response was on his page. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 23:45, 22 May 2008 (UTC)