User talk:Filiocht/Archive nine

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[edit] "Let's speedy delete the RFA page!!"

I agree with you. The truth of the matter is that there are two people, roughly, who have consistently said that the rest of the community simply doesn't matter. Tony Sidaway continues to say that, because he has the Divine Right of Admins, he simply doesn't need to listen to the voters on VfD AfD and can recreated deleted articles without using VfU. Snowspinner had a long RfC prior to this (with and against user:orthogonal), and in it he similarly said that democracy was for the other guy, that it was his duty to unilaterally create policy and enforce it. He hasn't been shy in saying it since then, either. The difference merely is that he used to believe that more stuff needed to be deleted. Now, apparently, someone insulted his dog, and he thinks that valuable stuff is being deleted. His response in either case was unilateral action.

Given that these two people are not being reprimanded, it looks like cowardice and weariness are going to allow them to do whatever they want and overrule all other editors and administrators. Specifically, the great, petrifying and paralytic fear of de-adminning one person leading to thousands of complaints means that ArbCom will not act in cases where the very specific powers of an admin are the ones being abused. (The fact that Snowspinner is a master of red herrings and that Wikipedia voters have a fascination with them is beside the point, if an RfC were to continue. The guy who says that votes are worthless is, indeed, demonstrating his point by getting the voters to chase down some encephalic "war" of deletion and inclusion.)

The question both of us, and the other writers who have left, have to ask is whether we care enough to allow these people to take away our every project hour to try to stop their malice and whether, barring that, we wish for our work to be on a project that is so easily subverted. I don't know how I will answer that in the long run. It's day by day for me. Geogre 16:13, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Snowspinner

Doesn't that just involve deleting the AfD notice and the relevant entry on the AfD page? Oh, did he actually delete the AfD pages themselves? I hadn't checked that. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 14:32, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Worse

I'm asking you as an admin who the logs show has been active in the past ten minutes: can you block Worseleration from being re-created (again) after it gets re-deleted? Thanks. I'd do it myself, but my RFA hasn't passed yet. DS 14:27, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Arbitration subpage

Hi. Each of the current candidates in the Arbitration Committee election now has a subpage for people to ask questions and have a discussion with the candidate. It's linked to below your statement on the candidate statements page. Hopefully, this format will be more productive and less disruptive than the "endorsements/disendorsements" approach that caused so many problems last year.

I took the liberty of copying your candidate statement unaltered to your subpage. Feel free to elaborate on it at whatever length you wish, without the concern of space restrictions as on the main candidate page. I encourage you to put your subpage on your watchlist and discuss arbitration issues with the community as part of your campaign. --Michael Snow 04:00, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] re: Just a thanks

You're welcome, and thank you for coming here and saying so. I really appreciate that a lot, I can't tell you what a wonderful feeling it is to be supported when it hasn't felt that way for a difficult few days. Thank you. --Blackcap | talk 17:44, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] More thanks

Thank you as well; thoughtful words from those I respect and admire mean a lot to me. (Though you might wish to check back at my page for a warning on the dangers of speaking with more poetic license than mathematical rigor! :-) )

I see you've thrown your hat in for the arbcom—was this part of the plans you spoke of earlier? You have my support. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 23:57, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Thank you for voting on my RfA

Dear Filiocht: Although you did not support my candidacy, I would like to thank you for taking the time to vote on my RfA. Oppose votes are, to some extent, as useful to me as Support votes, since they serve to highlight areas in which I can improve myself and become a better administrator. As my RfA was successful, I would be exceptionally grateful if you might tell me how you would like to see me improve, and what areas you think I should work on to ensure that I am successful as an administrator. I am always looking for feedback, and I would be grateful for the opinion of an experienced Wikipedian such as yourself. I look forward to working with you in the future. Best regards, --NicholasTurnbull | (talk) (e-mail) (cabal) 05:08, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] God is not dead

It is Sunday morning, and I have seen the word of god, Theo seems still to be among the living, and I am well pleased. — Paul August ☎ 15:06, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] User:Gt1234

Actually, I have blocked this one indefinitely. The vandalism committed was so blatant and so directed against a particular user that I very much doubt this is a newbie, and very much believe that it is an abusive sockpuppet of some vandal. Sjakkalle (Check!) 09:19, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Portals eat children

Sorry, Fil, I have a fear of portals. There's so much wikistuff pulling me in all directions anyway, I dream of again writing a substantial article some day. You wouldn't embiggen my guilt list and feed me to Moloch the portal, besmeared with the blood of its maintainers, would you? Mind you, I realize I would have time for article-writing and literature portals both, if I avoided getting involved with so much stuff like this. I don't want to avoid it, though. Bishonen | talk 10:58, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Oh, that? XAL? That's nothing, it's over. Fred Bauder took one look at my evidence and permabanned her. The whole Bogdanov Affair, OTOH, that's got aspects. I let others take over most of the cirkus after a few weeks, compare burnout warning here. That's the beauty of the wiki system: there are other people, one can pass stuff on. The Bogdanov schism's been getting worse ever since, and is approaching core meltdown, getting passed faster and faster from hand to hand. I know of two admins over the past couple of weeks who've self-blocked to get a break from it (I blocked one of 'em, actually), and if you should see anybody wandering around the wiki in a King Lear nightie sticking straws in their hair, it could easily be a former or present Bogdanov talkpage moderator. Well, or of course one of XAL's "mentors", like the unfortunate Bratsche, who "welcomed" her and then did penance for it. :-) Anyway, it was just an example. Are you planning to babysit the portal? Bishonen | talk 12:01, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Comments on the Late Unpleasantness

This is not a question, as I would be loathe to see anyone answer it, but a comment on some disputes that have been going for a while now. Consider this my own not-a-candidate platform:

  1. The issue of "de-op" and "de-admin" and "de-sysop" has been a bugbear for well over 18 months, now. I first had it seep under my door during the user:orthogonal vs. user:Snowspinner controversy. At the time, a number of folks grumbled and rumbled and began offering methods of "de-Sysopping" people. My own idea had been a probationary period of a year, when all admins would need a vote of confidence at the end of a year before being excepted from a review process in the future (unless guilty of outrageous abuse).
  2. The issue has re-emerged with user:Snowspinner again, and with user:Ed Poor, and with user:Tony Sidaway. If numbers alone were all we valued, we'd say that the sorts of administrator action that prompt regular editors to call for de-administration (let's call it what it is: impeachment) has tripled since the failure to establish a mechanism 18 months ago that improved upon the current ArbCom reluctance.
  3. Regardless of numbers, the severity of the actions has increased. Deletion of the entire VfD page by Ed Poor was outrageous, whether it was an "accident" or not (and he seems to say both that it was and was not), and Snowspinner's deletion of piles of VfD listings is arrogant, and Tony's decision to ignore all other administrators and decided that VfU is simply not needed by him is ludicrous. In each of these cases, a substantial number of editors has called for revocation of administrative powers. In each of these cases, ArbCom has not acted in any way or has exonerated. Although one of the users mentioned above will say that this is because ArbCom agrees with the actions, that is patently ludicrous. In fact, several ArbCommers had been terribly uneasy with the Sysop status of at least one of those persons. However, it has been a widely recognized shibboleth to speak of impeachment.
  4. An institutional mechanism other than ArbCom falls prey to the usual policy proposal morass. If it needs a vote, it's going to fail, get reiterated, fail, get adapted by a naif, fail, and get reintroduced by a second naif (and fail). If it needs consensus, on the other hand, it's going to be a cause of discouragement for the proposer and mirth for the abusers only.
  5. My own view is that administrative functions are very narrow. As anyone who is an admin knows, there isn't much you get with the title (except prestige), and therefore any use or abuse of those very specific powers should carry with it a review of access to those powers. Thus, only abuse of delete, undelete, history deletions, and protection could possibly rise to impeachment levels, but any documented and agreed upon abuse should carry sanction, since the alternative is not banishment, but demotion.
  6. ArbCom members fear opening the door a crack and seeing a mob of unruly vandals and popular-cause folks demanding that the RickK of the week be de-adminned for being rude. Without any guideline or procedure limiting the sorts of accusations that could result in loss of powers and with only severity of abuse as the guide to such a decision, it's a valid fear. However, the fear of abusive admins ought to be great enough to warrant some guidelines for loss of administrative functions.
  7. Currently, people are blocked, blocked from editing X or Y, blocked from making insults, blocked from talking to A or B, etc. To me, in the case of administrative abuse, this is a horrible waste of personnel and energy. Almost all of our admins are valuable editors and contributors, and telling them not to contribute is bad, whereas allowing them to use the very, very specific powers of an administrator to enact their quarrels on a large scale is very, very bad. Demotion should not be seen as worse than a block, as all that is lost is a button or two, and there should be the possibility of temporary demotion. Why throw out the good (editor and vandal fighter) to protect the bad (delete/undeleter, page mover and protector)?

For that reason, I, personally, think that we should see an arbitrators-only guideline for when loss of administrator status should be pursued and when it should be imposed. For my part, I'd like to see fewer blocks and promises and bans and more demotion, even temporary demotion. That, and the various no-confidence vote schemes, probationary periods, renewing admin status, etc., are all possibilities, but the one thing that ArbCom can do now that it isn't is set up a narrow funnel through which impeachment requests can go, but a funnel that does have an opening. Geogre 13:31, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, lately, I've been casting a cold eye on life, on death, and I'm not under Ben Bulbeen. Thus, I have, of late, been much freer in telling the feeble that they are unpleasant to consider, and this is no good thing in an arbitrator. Also, I have been appointed somewhat the voice of the powerless when it comes to Tony Sidaway, in particular. I.e. I'm now engaged in disputes, which is not a good thing. I haven't violated any policy, don't plan to, either, nor used vile language, nor launched personal attacks, but I also don't feel like hiding the fact that I believe in demotion over blocking, when it comes to administrators. So, between the people who have me as the Archangel of Deletion and the people who think that I'm being mean to newbie substub authors and the people who go to IRC every few minutes, I'd get not more than a couple of votes. Were I to win, I'm not sure I would devote sufficient time to it, either. I think the amount of procedure might convince me that it's time to finally jump off the roof, provided I could find a high roof in this land of one-storey slab houses baked in the hellish heat. At the same time, I'd be one of the few candidates who hadn't actually gone out and broken policy as a prelude to running for ArbCom. (I think IRC's lensing effect on votes is another malady that should be considered, but ArbCom has nothing to say there.) Geogre 14:46, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

For Paul as well as Fil: I really think my ongoing fight with Tony and Tony's habituation of IRC would doom any run of mine, and I won't sacrifice my principles that Tony's actions are abuses for the "honor" of added ArbCom work. Also, while all of us (every one...don't look abashed, you know it's true) has said that Wikipedia is bound to fail since the first day we heard of it, I'm one of the ones drawing the borders of his garden in closer and closer and straying from it less and less, simply because going out always means coming back bloody. Geogre 01:26, 11 October 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Help

Never mind all this Arb com business! what about my problem! You are an administrator what are you going to do about it? Its just not good enough! I'm just not putting up with it!, what is going on on this site, for the last half an hour every time I try to save something all I get is half what I've written muddled up with the section below, what is going on , that's what I want to know. Lets concentrate on what is important - my article, not all this mumbling about with people who should know better, just ban the lot of them, that's what I say! Now what's going on with the bloody save button! Furious in Ragusa

  • Not good enough - and you remember the old Mafia slogan! " O mangiar questa minestra o saltar questa finestra." Furious in Ragusa

[edit] Syncretist Movement

Re the AfD you nominated earlier--I've been snooping around a bit. Those guys have been up to all sorts of nonsense--I just reverted Michael Palmer, which had been blanked and rewritten, some time ago, to be about G. Michael Palmer of the alleged Sync. Movement, and then redirected by an innocent bystander. I posted this (with a vote) at the AfD, but I wanted to let you know. I don't know whether the whole lot should be nominated for AfD; I did some googling and they're obviously very young and minor but have done a few things. If you come up with more information or decide to nominate them, do let me know. Thanks. Chick Bowen 20:01, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment at my talk page. I'm concerned about an inactive user--I posted it at the AfD. This is blatant linkspamming, but they're marginally notable so I guess there's not much we can do, except limit them to their four pages. They'd also created a page at Formal poetry, which was unnecessary--I redirected it to List of verse forms. Chick Bowen 20:05, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Booker

I imagine you're pleased for John Banville. By the way, I started Christopher Middleton. Charles Matthews 10:55, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Penny each

Great pome!

I had really wondered if anyone noticed. I started to see the commonplaces as omens for the sort of day I'd have at the college, so I was alarmed to find that my commonplace book (I really keep one) was full of nothing but the darkest, most pessimistic sayings I'd hit in my readings. A bit too late now to find sunshine in the books, though, so I try to balance one jeremiad with one pollyannaism (or at least one "ain't it strange" quote). I'll add some more to my file now. Hopefully I can find something cheery in there. (The Limerick article is a good one, as cities of such antiquity can easily get to 200 KB for a detailed history. (And yes, I did land at Shanon Airport once, but no one interviewed me.)) Geogre 15:18, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Arbcom

I think I misread your age in your statement. I never thought you would be above 35. :) User:Nichalp/sg 19:06, 12 October 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Bless you my son

Dear Brother Filiocht, I don't have the time to banter frivolously with you. Please do not mention pagan Gods on my page again, I am now a reformed charactor, ckeck ot my recent edits, I'm now writing the lives of the saints, which is a truly fulfilling and rewarding experience. Off out of the office for a couple of hours to give all my money to the poor, (except for that smelly old tramp with the mongrel by Green park underground station who called me a miserable bastard last week. who I suspect of being a particulat Wikipedia editor.) In the meantime: Praise the Lord, halelijah! Giano | talk 13:01, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Thank you

Thank you... I'll take the congratulations for the limerick; condolences perhaps more appropriate for the appointment! Really, speaking of under the hat, you're going to make the face there blush. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 18:13, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your vote of confidence. I'm going to wait and see how the next few weeks go to see if I'm really up for it; I'm somewhat nervous at present, and as long as I have the rare opportunity for a trial run first... (Side note: I'm enjoying the reality shows quite a bit! Haven't been hit by any good ones yet myself.) Mindspillage (spill yours?) 06:01, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Spam

G'como and Fil and Geogre, and any others reading this (nudge, nudge), I'm sorry to be spamming, but I thought you might care to comment on this RfC. I wouldn't be bothering you if it wasn't for the skimpiness of the interest shown here. It's not a labyrinthine case, it's pretty much about one particular quarrel that went down yesterday, some of it on my talk page. I'm very much only suggesting you chip in if you've got the time and the interest, of course. NUDGE. Bishonen | talk 20:48, 15 October 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Where's the polling booth?

When are we supposed to be doing this voting business, I don't want to miss it, but have neither the time or inclination to go rooting all over the site trying to find out what we are supposed to be doing about it - so please do tell me. I'm sure your manifesto is very interesting so I shall vote for you, on condition I (personally) am not required to be nice all over the place. I am never nice, unless its my birthday or Christmas. There's nothing more invigorating first thing in the morning than the head of a newbie, who has made a daft edit during the night, with one's toast and coffee. I've finished my "lives of the saints" and decided a life of saintly goodness is not for me. Please let me know where to put my vote! Giano | talk 12:25, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

I thought it was tomorrow, the way every one is getting so exited - please remind me nearer the time, a lot can happen between now and then - the Lord moves in mysterious ways! Giano | talk 12:37, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Better already!

Thanks, Filiocht. Over on the one side, you've got your ennui, and on the other side, you've got your malaise. Then, up above, there is the intimation of mortality, and down below are the chains that bind us to dirt and death. At an angle is always the catastrophe, and it lurks across from the realization of folly. All of these, however, run and hide beneath Time's cloak when one attempts to dispel them. Beyond that, it's just the background level of nausea of the universe. (But I had fun talking to my students about logical fallacies, which diverted my attention from the corporeal for :50.) Geogre 13:24, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Have a minute for a favor?

I know you work on poetry, so I was wondering if you'd be interested in taking a look at Mário de Andrade; I've currently got it up at Peer review (here), but have gotten no responses, probably because it's too specialized. I'd be grateful for any thoughts you might have. If it looks good to people I'm planning to put it up at FAC in a couple of days. If you don't have time I quite understand of course. Thanks. Chick Bowen 23:55, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] My RfA

WikiThanks!

Hi Filiocht! Just wanted to thank you for supporting my RfA. I hope I will be able to live up to the confidence placed in me. --Cyberjunkie | Talk 04:47, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

"Oh my. I'm young and boring and not good at the technical stuff. Is that worse?"

— "Not at all, at least you might become interesting; I'm way beyond that." Filiocht 08:38, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

LOL!! Good answer, though quite false, I'm sure. ;-D SlimVirgin (talk) 15:17, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Unholy stink

I was shocked...shocked I tell you...at the shape of John Crowe Ransom. Why do we even bother, if that's what we're going to have? No, I don't feel up to going through Ransom's tortured biography, but if there were a real article there I'd have been (past tense) happy to talk a bit about his significance. Unbelievable what stays, what "clean up" passes. Were anyone to bomb that article from orbit, there would be howls of protest over how much content it has, even though the content is flatly embarassing. (I'm going to wander away muttering now, so look the other way for a moment.) Geogre 19:06, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Oh, and check out its lovely history. It has been this way since July 2003! In fact, it has been improved since then. ("Improved" in the sense that words have been linked.) Do we know anyone who does American Modernists (even reactionary anti-Modernist Modernists)? I know Ransom was nuts later and started rewriting all his poems to be bad, but come this should now be the article we use to advertise all that is wrong with the "eventualist" position. Geogre 17:46, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Theatre (Belated) Welcome

Thank you for becoming a member of WikiProject Theatre! With your hard work we hope to build a comprehensive compendium of theatrical knowledge here on Wikipedia. Since its founding in May of this year, not much has happened here so I have started a discussion on the project’s talk page to arouse some interest and discussion. There is also an updated list of items needing attention on the main project page. If you know of or happen to come across a theatre related article needing attention, feel free to post it on the page. Again, thanks for joining and I look forward to working with you! *Exeunt* Ganymead 20:02, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Can I get your vote?

I have been nominated for an adminship and I was wondering if I could get your vote. If you feel inclined, please go to Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Alabamaboy and cast your "yes" or "not in a million years." Many thanks.--Alabamaboy 02:25, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] A gap filled

I've started an article on verse novels. Charles Matthews 09:59, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Template/Workshop

You, or any Wikipedia user, can contribute your suggestions and comments to the /Workshop page of any active arbitration case. Comments on evidence or proposals can help in understanding the import of evidence and in refining proposals. Proposed principles, findings of fact, or remedies may be listed on /Proposed decision and form part of the final decision. Fred Bauder 14:21, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hello

Hi Filiocht. I agree wholeheartedly with what you said here. I think perhaps a reason for that proposal (especially point # 5) by the other editor was because of my rfa and his "participation" against me in it. Anyways, I would be pleased if you voted. Thank you very much :) --a.n.o.n.y.m t 01:02, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] War of the League of Cambrai

Thank you very much for your comments! Kirill Lokshin 12:51, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

I had that impression as well, but I thought it might be impolite to point it out. Kirill Lokshin 15:24, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Image:Zukofsky, Louis Willow Stret Brooklyn Neights.jpg

Thanks for the heads up. --Alan Au 00:15, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

A user is trying to have the Template:Irish Republic infobox deleted. Your comments would be welcome. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 22:10, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks for supporting my RfA

I know I've been slow in saying this, but thanks for supporting my request for adminship. It was an honor to be both nominated and approved as an admin. If there is ever any adminish (is that a word :-) things you need help with, please let me know. --Alabamaboy 16:34, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] CfD

If you got a minute can you take a look at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2005 November 7#Category:Soviet spies to Category:Aed Soviet spies. Thanks. nobs 18:49, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] gl.wikipedia.org

Dear, gl: has passed from 10,000 entries. Can you arrange the changes to show this? user:Agremon on 15/11/05

[edit] Ex-rebels

Yeah, that particular guy is obsessed with "glamour models" -- which appears to mean wet t-shirts instead of overt gynecology illustrated. You're welcome on the Flann O'Brien page. Having endured shocking and frightful allegations about my anti-Irish bias, I'm glad that a fellow Hibernian can speak up. Finally, I felt like the tizzy over the name is so absolutely, 100% wrong for that particular author, who regarded all such things as contemptible, that I had to put in the quote from himself. Geogre 17:47, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] I'm back

Hey Fil. I'm back from Firenze. Had a great time. I'm only slowly getting back into the swing of things Wikipedia. Sorry to see that you've withdrawn your name from consideration for ArbCom, although I understand why. I still think you would make an excellent contribution there. I now feel at a loss over how, if at all, any of us "little folk" can influence the selection of ArbCom members. I wonder if a direct appeal to Jimbo would be of any use? Paul August ☎ 16:59, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sure

Sure, I'll take a look. I've rather gone off the idea of working up FAs myself, with the disproportion between work put in and response. Maybe five people voted on The Relapse last week, something like that—in this huge community. (And I'm pretty sure one of them hadn't read it.) A combination of FAC not being very lively right now and my field not interesting anybody much, I suppose. It's certainly childish to expect a parade in reward for effort, but that's probably exactly what I childishly do. I know you feel that having coverage of literary topics has value in itself, but that seems a bit theoretical to me: what is the value of a piece of reading matter if nobody reads it? Or maybe coverage—of a minimal kind—completeness—does have value, but I'm pretty sure big, elaborate, unread articles don't, and pretty sure that that is what I'm producing. Anyway, you do 20th century stuff, I don't doubt there's more interest in that. It's a resource for students, and for poetrylovers, so you shouldn't be afflicted with the same sense of pointlessness.

Incidentally, it looks like the accursed mediawiki software got updated and broke sigs such as ours yet again. You can get your old sig back by typing [[User:Filiocht|Filiocht]] | [[User talk:Filiocht|The kettle's on]] in the nickname field in Preferences and ticking the "raw signatures" box. --Bishonen|talk 22:31, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Disturbing edit

Please see WP:AN. Is there anyway for us to figure out which ISP it is and see if there is anything that can be done? --Nlu 09:27, 16 November 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Peer Review

I know nothing about poetry what so ever, but I won't let that hinder my opinion. Of course it must stay at Objectivist poets cos' they're what its about (just proving I've actually read it), and I see old Ezra get his ugly mug in again. Playing the Devil's advocate some people (not me) will say at Fa that it is too short, and not enough pics I see you uploaded [[Image:Wcwilliams.jpg] well I hope you are sure of the copyright, and it is legit,because that seems to be very important these days. Why's he called Carlos seems a bloody funny name for a Welshman (yes I know he was American, but Williams is a Welsh name) Anyway the content seems quite good, though could we not have a few lines so the uninformed (like myself) could get the jist of what it's about, or was it all that funny stuff that doesn't rhyme - never could understand the point of that! Any way it all seems OK to me. I haven't bothered to comment there, as I suspect more people read this page which is far more interesting. Someone put my Francis Petre on a review page ages ago, and no one has commented at all, but then in my opinion he has no business there anyway. Strange place this is becoming!

More importantly why have you withdrawn your name from consideration for ArbCom? Was it the thought of me voting that did it? Well, I shan't try to persuade you to change you're mind as I suspect it would have been a complete waste of your time, which is better spent writing , and trying to improve the standards here on the ground. Best wishes Giano | talk 14:04, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, as you may have noticed I am a born bruiser, but as I have said may times: "strange place this is becoming!" Giano | talk

[edit] Objectivist poets

Hi Filioct. Please don't mention it, it was no trouble at all. Indeed I should thank you—if you hadn't put up your page for peer review, I would not have read such a delightfully written article—it is not often one reads such clear English on Wikipedia. I'm a medical man, and so hadn't the faintest idea about Objectivists, Imagists, modernists—dash it all, poetry (although we do have Williams in med school—"Humanities in Medicine", they called it)—but I found myself thoroughly enjoying it all; made me want to read more about Oppen and Zukofsky and the rest. Please keep doing what you do—all of you: Bishy, Geogre, Giano, et al—the articles are invariably a joy to read. Although I do realize it must sometimes be a bit hard, they sometimes don't get nearly the attention they richly deserve. Which reminds me—I owe Geogre a little something.

Speaking of doing things, I must mention that I'm quite disappointed you're apparently not going up for the ArbCom, Filioct. I've read the notes elsewhere explaining why, but it still really is a downer. IMHO you're one of the few candidates who're simply clear-cut obvious choices. Mightn't you keep the candidacy going, just in case Jimbo casts a wider net? I understand if you don't think it's a good idea of course, but it would be a shame, really. Well, must run now. Take care, Filioct. encephalon 09:38, 18 November 2005 (UTC) NB. I've just seen that you undid the Zukofsky link: you're absolutely right of course. I was looking at the article again for something else, chanced upon that line, noticed he wasn't linked, and didn't see the earlier one. Sorry! encephalon 09:43, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Wow. Briliant stuff. FAC it now. This is why we need you (and Giano, and Geogre, and Bishonen, and others) around. -- ALoan (Talk) 10:56, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
  • I note your flattering comment ALoan, and you are almost forgiven! Anyway Filiocht I see you've taken my poetical advice and added a few stansas or whatever they are called, and I note, with dismay, it is indeed all that funny stuff that doesn't rhyme properly, and when it does I haven't the foggiest clue what they're going on about e.g "As won't, tho they're not here, pass thru a hoop. Strayed on a manhole — me? Am on a stoop." (what exactly is a manhole! sounds very rude and unpleasant and far from poetical) Well. I'm sorry, I have to say it all seems very strange and odd to me, do you know that one "Into the valley of death" - I like that one, can't you write about that instead. Have you thought about writing a page called Poetry for beginners actually explaining what it's all about. Who was that daft old biddy who you used to recite poetry through a megaphone - that would be a good page. To be frank it is completely beyond me why anyone thses days wants a page featured - just look at the crap and problems one of my poor old boys is having here [1] poor old sod has been there over ten days instead of a week and they still can't find anything worthy to moan about - you heed my warning Filiocht and keep the page under wraps. Anyway apart from that I just wanted to say the page look great to me, I will award it my own personal "Giano Aproved" - which is far safer. Have a nice weekend Giano | talk 12:34, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
Now that's an award worth having! Filiocht | The kettle's on 13:00, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
I wasn't intending to flatter - just telling it like it is. Do I need forgiveness? Peccavi nimis cogitatione, verbo et opere: mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
Pam Ayres? -- ALoan (Talk) 13:42, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
Ah Pammy. The woman who did for poetry what McDonalds did for haute cusine. Filiocht | The kettle's on 13:50, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Excuse me Filiocht, a message for ALoan <to be read in a Frankie Howerd voice> Ut est a bonus suscipio ALoan. Recedentia magis " meus erroris " sententia es postulo. Vos have viator per Mafioso , non a bonus informatio Revolvo vestri factum , quod EGO mos personally aufero vestri testacles per a chainsaw - but after that we'll call it quits! - Giano | talk 14:09, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
<Kenneth Williams á la Cary on Cleo> Infamy! Infamy! They've all got it in for me! -- ALoan (Talk) 15:53, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Abashed after a bashing

Thanks, man. I'm just scratching an itch. I got all this "learned lumber in (my) head," as Pope said of dust besprent pedants, and nothing to build with it. I've spent decades teaching, but always computers, composition, and dull novels at a snail's pace, so any reaching up and beyond has been stifled. So, really, capitalism's ruthless calculus is to credit for any decent articles I do here: an oversupply of English lit. teachers has met the under-demand for them, and I was sort of born to the profession. (Have you ever read "Away from It All" by Heaney? It has a great, nearly Imagist, image of a lobster: "Articulated twigs the colour of sunk munitions.") Geogre 11:22, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The list

Speaking of speaking Italian, as you may have noticed, we have a new helper on the Dante list it seems, Aldux. He's a relatively new editor (since July) who has been adding a lot of material on ancient Greece, which is how we met. He's an Italian living near Florence. I visited with him while I was there, where I told him about our little list. He's a young secondary school teacher of philosophy and history. His English is good but needs editing occasionally. He's quite industrious, so he could be a significant contributer to the list. Anyway he is a great guy, and you should introduce yourself ;-) Paul August ☎ 13:54, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

We weren't it was Latin Giano | talk 21:11, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
You were "speaking" Latin above, but I was referring to my "speaking" Italian to Fil in this edit summary, and Fil's response ;-) Paul August ☎ 21:59, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
Puter vestri teres sensus meus amicus. Vernula superum permoveo in prodigiosus procuratio. Iam nos licentia penuriosus Filiocht ut sileo. Giano | talk 23:22, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
"Ripen your rounded feeling my friend? Servants of the gods excite unnatural control? Now we license poor Filiocht when to be silent?" Say what? I know I said the good fathers "taught" me Latin, but I didn't say I learned any! My Latin is only marginally better than my virtually non-existent Italian. "Maria habuit parvum agnum" is more my speed. Paul August ☎ 16:51, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
You mean "Rot your rounded feeling", don't you? Prodigiously, Bishonen|talk 17:17, 20 November 2005 (UTC).
  • And you can be silent too young lady! Meus orator Latin est praeclarus. Caveo qui narro in plures lingua Giano | talk 17:35, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
Ripen, rotten, rot? All on a continuum. But rot is shorter and sweeter, and does sound more like Giano ;-) Paul August ☎ 18:05, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Filiocht reverto cras. quis mos is recordor is sermo in suus tractus? Giano | talk 20:18, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

What can I say? Immortal Horace seems somewhat apt:

Humano capiti cervicem pictor equinam
Jungere si velit, et varias inducere plumas
Undique collatis membris, ut turpiter atrum
Definat in piscem mulier formosa superne;
Spectatum admissi risum teneatis, amici?

Filiocht | The kettle's on 08:48, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Father Fil is back and is chastising us for the mismatched grotesqueries we've "painted" on his page. Horace continues:
Such is the book, that like a sick man's dreams,
Varies all shapes, and mixes all extremes.
Paul August ☎ 20:23, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
  • sounds like a new to the market biscuit for cheese. The moral of the story is to think twice before abandoning one's page for a weekend again! Giano | talk 20:37, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
I like the sound of Father Fil. Lends me the right kind of weight, don't you think? Now back to work, lads! Filiocht | The kettle's on 08:37, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Atomic individualism

Hoooo-boy, do I have responses to that! Unfortunately, they're long and laborious.

First, I agree that the atomic individual is a curse, that seeing an irreducible and sufficient whole in the self is a wickedness that leads to all sorts of atrocities. Further, I agree with you on some of the grim(e) ironies of contemporary theorizing that always seems to come back to "I'm alright, Jack." In fact, one of the cutest is that we began with skepticism about the transhistorical subjective state and, through endless qualification of the individual, ended up affirming not the personhood or essence (which we righteously reject as good academics) but the set of perceptions that are operative. These perceptions are irreducible. They can assert nothing, and yet, by being irreducible, they turn out to be an unquestionable self. I.e. by saying, "Well, I cannot know beyond the historical moment" so often, they have ended up wtih "What I perceive at the present is what I perceive at the present, and that cannot be asked to do more than be"; by getting to that point, what has been implied is, "Because I cannot be asked to mean, cannot be asked to refer, I also cannot be invalidated," and the result of that realization is amorality. If the perceptive self in operation cannot be true or false, it cannot be good or bad.

Secondly, I agree that this ends up prioritizing and valorizing the individual. It's true that it disintegrates society (as the right wingers will winge about), but it is also egoism. The world exists for the self, because, plainly, it's hubris to say it exists for anyone or anything else, they say. Therefore, it remains an imperial perceptive scheme, but an atomic empire -- the empire of the self alone -- and why not? (If you answer that, you betray a faith in something else.)

Then, though, there are the grounds of disagreement. You see, I am enough of a postmodernist to say, "You say that I'm not at the center of the map, but I made the map. Therefore, I am at the center of it." But I'm not post-modernist enough to think that this organizing principle translates into ownership or priority over the world as it is. (And I like old Berkeley. He wasn't so la-te-da as all that.) Knowing that one's sense-making is always there, that it will always put the self at the center is not the same thing as believing that there is nothing beyond that. I do believe the fault is with the sense-making facility, but it is not a fault of lying, bur rather of incompleteness. I'm a Kierkegaardian. I think that what's there is great stuff, but it's incomplete without the invisible complement. There is another sense-making scheme, and it can be apprehended only mystically. Needless to say, I can't prove this to anyone. I can prove the incompleteness. I can show the holes that are either bottomless or filled with something else, but I can't say what the else is without betraying myself.

The radical humility you propose is nothing I'd disagree with. I think, though, that there are other things, too, other ways. I don't deny that I'm old fashioned as hell in this, but if we accept that the sense-making faculty is limited and that it can only assert itself reliably, we don't have to buy the cheap goods of selfism. We can, instead, say that, if the self is all we can see with, then the others are our only subjects and that we ought to leave the non-cooperative and non-fathomable out of it (writing to people about people and never any hint of their relationships to objects), or we can say that those things that are beyond the sense-making operation are the best subjects and that we should try to provoke failure in sense-making (koans, in other words), or we can try to be phenomenological and describe around the holes.

Maybe I'm just a plain clothese Jesuit, though. Sometimes I wonder, myself. Geogre 19:34, 18 November 2005 (UTC)


Actual reply later. No, I meant that the current "po-mo" trend is to atomize by evacuating the ground upon which any commonality could be forged or assessed. As for what is out there...what It is -- object or society or living world (living living, not "world of living things"), mystical veil, etc. -- I cannot say. (It would be cheating if I did.)
I agree with you entirely, though, that writing about oneself and one's empire of affect is not just inherently onanistic (anyone can see that) but corrosive. The vanity articles of poetry and prose ("a new novel by a woman from South Carolina describes a woman who returns to the Low Country [South Carolina] to confront the past," according to a radio blurb I heard) (new movies about movie writers) (poems about the poet's psychopathy or the poet's favorite syllabic marbles for the mouth) are wretched affairs that dissolve the one Other that I think we can agree used to exist: the illusion or substance of society and community. (Hill's not all words...at least not always.)
No. Even if there is no lady inside the dress, we apprehend community/society in some form, even if it's only by collective agreement and delusion. We could start with that. We could alternately try not to "destabilize issues of gender" and "destabilize issues of self" but just de-center the self in the most literal way. Whatever else there is to say about Williams's Red Wheelbarrow, it was in the foreground. We don't have to have the intellectual freak-out of TS Eliot insisting that we not look at him at all, either.
I guess I like Auden.
I guess. Geogre 12:19, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Robert Lynd

Do you have any interest in Robert Lynd? I'm having over there a re-run-in of the kind first seen at Richard Aldington. Lynd knew James Joyce and Nora; but I'm not clear how well. Charles Matthews 16:17, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

One thing out of that: I've added a page on Tom Kettle to fill a red link in the anthology. Charles Matthews 12:21, 22 November 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Ciao

Thanks for the award. I have decided to abandon writing FAs, as my style of cramming the page with every available fact known to mankind on the subject seems to be out of fashion. I suspect most of mine will soon loose their FA status anyway as the prose is not golden and flowing, and every single fact or quote isn't annotated. I've always though that if one lists all the references people are quite capable of reading them for themselves. Buckingham Palace was my most amazing FA, when I look at the before and after, but what is truly rewarding there is it now has a life all of it's own, so many people have taken up a thread or expanded a section; but no doubt that will soon be on the new FA review page for Tuff-Kat and Maclean, the Starsky and Hutch of the FA world, God knows who will take that on to regild it's prose - certainly not me. I do feel an encyclopedia should be all about facts and figures, but Wikipedia changes direction like the wind - so who knows what next. I'm glad at least yours and Bishonen's are nice and safe, no one is going to risk taking those on. Wikipedia's lucky to have you both rare experts in a rare field. I'm still going to be around but just dabble about making small pages on subjects that interest me - Oh and of course sticking my nose in where I feel it's needed regardless of others opinions! Giano | talk 13:47, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Giano, these annoyances will pass, you know people love your pages! I think there's a bit of an backwash at present from that RFA affair. People mostly prefer uninformed rumor-mongering over checking things out for themselves, so expect negative attention rather than thanks for the role you played, until it's all forgotten. :-( Anyway, thank you, Fil, much appreciated. I will wear my medals at the Nobel dinner on December 10 as usual. Bishonen | talk 17:52, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • You...YOU! YOU Bishonen person of the land of darkness, go to the Nobel dinner. I've never been invited to the Nobel dinner (even to do the washing up). Well! All I can say is I hope you don't get salmonella (Ave Maria, Sancta Maria....) and need to use the splendid bathroom fitments. Giano | talk 20:05, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • [Chortle chortle chortle.] Just like fish in a barrel. Bishonen | talk 21:43, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Cruel, but good. Filiocht | The kettle's on 08:23, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Fit pieces

Thanks, Fil, for the missing piece. Now I know what it spells.

I still want to get back to you on the idea of identity in a world without reference, as I think that's the critical problem that we've been dealing with. I think, sometimes, that George and Martha in Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf have it right: it doesn't matter so much that it's a lie, so long as it's a shared lie. Then, of course, I also think that's totally wrong and that we divide up the private belief structure necessary to act at all and the public pronouncement that's necessary to keep from being thrown in the jail or the asylum. It's tempting to say that then, or then, or then, or back then people had a unity of these two (TSE searching for Lancelot Andrews, Marx for his American Indian primitive communism, Spenser and his olde knightes), any historical awareness suggests that the aware folks have always thought their age uniquely duplicitous. Knowing that doesn't, unfortunately, do anything to heal the split. Geogre 16:30, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Some "Objectivist" questions

Hi Fil. I have been reading over Objectivist poets, and I have a few questions. They have to do with the section "Early publications":

  • While I very much like the addition of the poetry examples, for me, they do interrupt the flow of the section somewhat. Do you think they might be better placed in their own section?
  • The following paragraph, begins: "Another aspect of Objectivist poetics that is not explicitly addressed in these essays is an interest in exploiting the resonances of small, everyday words." I find this sentence a bit confusing, since it can be read to imply that there was a previous such "aspect" discussed in the article, which if there is, I can't identify. Also this entire paragraph seems a bit out of place (partly because of the addition of the examples). Does this topic perhaps warrant its own section? I would certainly like to understand better what is meant by: "if we still possessed the word 'is', there would be no need to write poems".
  • The first sentence of the next paragraph: "It appears that the term Objectivist may have been used because Harriet Monroe insisted on a group name and that the core group did not see themselves as a coherent movement but rather as a group of individual poets with some shared approach to their art.", I also find a bit confusing. Are you saying that one of the reasons the term "Objectivist" was used, was because "the core group did not see themselves as a coherent movement"? Or do you mean instead, something like: "Although the term Objectivist was used, apparently at the insistence of Harriet Monroe, the core group did not see themselves as a coherent movement, but rather …"? By the way, reading this somewhat cryptical remark makes me want to know more about this "dispute" over the name.

Hope some of this makes sense. Paul August ☎ 17:07, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi Paul

Do my recent changes improve things? I'm reluctant to "explain" Oppen's statement, which I think has something of the quality of a Zen koan. So I'll ask a couple of questions of you, if that's OK. How often has anyone actually meditated on the word is? If people really did "possess" (fully comprehend?) these words, and, by extension, possess a fuller understanding of the relationship between language and the world, would we need poets at all?

Yes I think the your changes help. I understand your reluctance to "explain" Oppen. After reading your non-explanation explanation, I think I understand better now what he was trying to say. It is more or less what I had guessed, but I felt I needed some confirmation. I think much of poetry is Zen koan like. I don't so much expect it in an essay though. By the way, concerning your question: "How often has anyone actually meditated on the word is?" I'm reminded of Clinton's caveat: "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is."
Another thing, concerning the phrase: "for Reznikoff, Zukofsky, Rakosi and Oppen, a shared Jewish heritage (which, for the first name trio included an early childhood in which English was not their first language);", I don't know what "first name trio" means. Is it supposed to refer to all but Oppen?. If so, then "… which, except for Oppen, included …" might be better.
Paul August ☎ 19:53, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Copyright

Gosh that all sounds very deep, so here's an easy question for you to which you may know the answer, can one upload a photograph from the cover of a book and use it in an article about the subject - I think one can, just would like someone to clarify it! I ask because I see you have done so, but your's is from an old book where mine would be only 20 years old? Thanks Giano | talk 11:25, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Oh so do I Filiocht, so do I. Perhaps we should start a Christmas spectacular. "The influence of the liquid curves of the Byzantine urinal, on late 20th century Irish architecture" Thanks for the info, will upload by image tonight, for my latest yawn which no one will read, see your not getting your usual easy run on FA either Giano | talk 12:06, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Poets

No chance of pushing off early here...

Confrontational? Only for you masochists who indulge in writing featured content! I long gave up that battle because the stress and hassle heavily outweighed the pleasure and fulfillment (not to mention not really having the style or inclination). I'm happier writing stubs (I've been DYKing a bit the last couple of weeks), or completing lists, or copyediting, formatting, etc, or chipping away at my featured wishlist. And of course criticising others at WP:FAC and WP:FLC ;) But I love reading the fully-formed pearls that drip from your pen (and those of Giano, Geogre, etc). -- ALoan (Talk) 16:20, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

They might seem like pearls to you ALoan (which is nice of you to say so), but nowadays it seems their authors have to prove their not cubic zirconia. One might just as well not bother to write the page - just list a load of references and say if you want to know about this subject go read these books and click on these links. Giano | talk 16:48, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
It seems to me that copyright paranoia, reference mania and nitpicking have taken over the house. While there are excellent FAC reviewere like yourself, ALoan, who actually help improve the articles they comment on, there are those whose main role seems to be to apply certain rigid criteria to every candidate equally without thought to content and context. The "don't link the dates" objection t my poets is a prime example of what I have in mind. After this one, I think I'll take a break from FAC for a while. Filiocht | The kettle's on 08:05, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the kind words. I'm not sure I'm that good a reviewer - I'm not that interested in references (so long as there are some) or copyright (because I know someone else will pick that up) - I just read the article and tell it like I see it. -- 13:26, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Well you can't give up too, only I have a Latin temperament that allows for going off in a huff. Anyway I've licked my wounds for long enough. You will all be delighted to know my heckles (is that the right word) are arising again - time for the old school to strike back - hit them where they are least expecting. Here [2] (where I have made a suggestion) . On Christmas day when they are all intoxicated and stuffed on their goose (OK Filiocht, delicious nutty chewy bars etc. as well) we strike, and take over the site and servers. I will become Jimbo as it was my idea, ALoan can become Raul, and you Filiocht and Geogre can just write and churn the encyclopedia out, while Bishonen can be deleter-extraordinaire deleting anything that even hints at obscure soap-stars, suppositories, footballers, computer-games or those animone things. OK ALoan we can have a cricket and rugby section - so long as it concentrates on the last Rugby World Cup,and Ashes series, - other recent matches are superfluous to requirements, and Bishonen will be instructed to delete them. Those wishing to join my coup d'etat sign below. Giano | talk 08:39, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Bring me your tired, your poor, your suppositories, I'll delete 'em, since it's all you think me fit for. Bishonen | talk 21:19, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Somehow I get the feeling that Geogre and I have drawn the short straw here. I want to be the ArbCom. You (as Jimbo) have to appoint me first, though. The word is hackels, by the way. Filiocht | The kettle's on 09:53, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
OK you can be ArbCom - so long as I get to pass sentences; are you sure it's hackels? One doesn't hackel a speaker one heckels, or does one, now you,ve got me confused. Giano | talk 10:40, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Heckle a speaker, hackles are fur or feathers on the back or neck that stand up when the owner is ready to fight. Filiocht | The kettle's on 10:47, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Stupid bloody language why would anyone heckle without hackles, and people don't have fur or feathers (at least I don't) - I'm off out for an hour now to do battle without my hackles Giano | talk 11:05, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Not to be confused with Heckler & Koch. -- ALoan (Talk) 13:26, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Don't be mean Filiocht, seeing as you're so interested I note that Preston Plucknett is stll red! Wasn't some Irish hero called Plucknett - what are you waiting for? Giano | talk 16:43, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Fil: You take a break from FAC if you want, but not from writing FAs! If you and Giano are getting "heckled" at FAC then maybe I should try to spend more time there, and heckle the hecklers, with my hackles up, although being something of a perfectionist, as you know, I do like to pick the occasional nit. I also have something of a soft spot for references (see Attalus I), but as long as an FAC has some that tends to be enough for me. As for copyright I'm happy with a fair use of the fair use provision. Paul August ☎ 18:19, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Giano: May I join your coup too? But is it alright if I'm also intoxicated and stuffed with goose when we take over on Christmas day? And as for my role in the new regime, can I be Paul August? I think I'm well suited for that. But I realize we may be a bit shorthanded at first, so I may need to expand my duties. If so it might be fun to try to fill the Giano role: temperamental Latin firebrand and court jester, but I'm afraid I won't be able to write nearly so well! Paul August ☎ 18:19, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Hmmmmm! I shall think on the matter...... I note Preston Plucknett is still red, which pleases me not; n.b. for those of you wanting positions of power in the new government. Giano | talk 19:14, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

And another fine Filiocht fashioning is featured. Paul August ☎ 05:46, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Which means I've got to think of another stub to expand. It won't be Preston Plucknett (is that a real name?) Filiocht | The kettle's on 08:04, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Congratulations and yes it isa real name, and for all you know it may, and probably does, contain a whole comminity of poets - I'm surprised you haven't heard of it! Giano | talk 08:39, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Not big on Somerset villages, I'm afraid. Filiocht | The kettle's on 08:50, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Don't worry I've done Preston Plucknett! Guess where is one of the few places linked to it? Giano | talk 18:23, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Something strange

Hi, Filiocht,

Something that is perplexing me is that these links appear blue and are categorised {{deletebecause|}} [3] yet they do not appear in Category:Candidates for speedy deletion. Any ideas? Djegan 12:34, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

No idea, unless it's a server thing. I'll delete them now. Filiocht | The kettle's on 12:43, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
All as red as you could wish for. Filiocht | The kettle's on 12:46, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Thank you. Djegan 12:47, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Waste Land

Thanks for your message. I'll try to add bits to the article, but I'm currently on the other side of the world (Poland) from my books (Australia) so I can't do as much as I'd like. I was recently looking at Ludwig van Beethoven and Life and work of Ludwig van Beethoven and then List of works by Beethoven and was impressed at the level of depth, with articles on each of the symphonies and quartets and about half of the piano sonatas so far ... and I was thinking it would be good to get this level of coverage for poets. Eliot seems to be a bit better off in this regard than most, but there's still - as you say - a long way to go on tidying up the articles. — Stumps 15:12, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I've done a fair bit of work on poets around the place, like this, but there is so much more to do. Filiocht | The kettle's on 15:31, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I haven't looked, but how are our other Modernists? Wallace Stevens, William Carlos Williams, Allen Tate, etc.? John Crowe Ransom was hideous. (Ok, so those last two are Southern poets, but still.) What about Robert Lowell? I did a bit with John Berryman when I was an IP. I think the Ted Hughes is pretty good. Is Robert Graves worth worrying about? What about the poetry section of D. H. Lawrence? (For my part, I like the long dead ones.) Geogre 18:01, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Most of these are a real mess. Ezra Pound isn't great, but has a lot of editors. As for Richard Aldington! And lots more besides. Filiocht | The kettle's on 08:14, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm, ok, A. R. Ammons, Conrad Aiken (fine! both are southern poets, so sue me!), Charles Wright? One of them is still a youngish guy. (But the academy has eaten him.) Geogre 21:18, 6 December 2005 (UTC) (P.S. I promise that I didn't know that Wright was a Southern poet, too. I knew he was at Virginia, but he speaks with a Yankee accent. I never suspected that he's from Tennessee. Geogre 21:19, 6 December 2005 (UTC) )

[edit] Article about Leslie Norris

Hello, we are the class 11e from Freiherr-vom-Stein Schule (Fulda, Germany) and we wrote an entry for Wikipedia about Leslie Norris. Now we are asking politly for your support in correcting and improving our entry and we want to ask you to protect our article, if possible ! It would be very nice ! With Thanks Class 11e

[edit] ArbCom: glad to see you've unwithdrawn

I think the ArbCom will be a better place with you there. Paul August ☎ 18:53, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Given your calm, well-reasoned and wise efforts at the Webcomics RFAr, you are going right to the top of my ballot. Sjakkalle (Check!) 13:17, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Oh are we voting at long last - give me a link where do I go. I shall be here only for the next half hour (I'm trying to log in to my bank account it always takes me that long) then away probably for the rest of the day Giano | talk 08:38, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Cough... don't bother trying to log into your bank account, Giano. Siphoning off its contents is the least of the little scriptkiddie tricks adminship in this place has taught me. And now heigh ho for South America! Bishonen | talk 16:01, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Given the amount of talking and length of time perhaps it would have been easier and quicker to have become leader of the conservative party! Giano | talk 08:45, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Fil, I can probably figure out the third in the triumverate you mentioned to me the other day, but I'll keep that to myself. I must say again that I am pleased with my wisdom in not running. I can be lofty and imperial for a while, but eventually I get drawn out and say something nasty. It takes a special bottle of Valium to run for, much less sit on, ArbCom (which pharmaceutical may explain the speed with which it decides cases, too). Geogre 13:18, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks

Hi Filiocht, thank you for the b'day greetings. Regards, =Nichalp «Talk»= 04:00, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Deep Thoughts, by Geogre

Wow! That's a great sonnet. It does preserve the half rhyme, and I must write in iambs more than I thought. ("I don't like bread and butter, and jam is too much trouble.") I suppose you know already of the "pastiche" dada experiments (that rarely worked), where one reads a newspaper horizontally, across all columns, as if it were a single prose line? The sonnet seemed to be, like that, this close to making sense (which is closer than I usually get). Geogre 14:52, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it does hover on the borders of intelligibility, which is nice. I was particularly pleased by the way the first quatrain seemed to recall Hugh Selwyn Mauberley. Filiocht | The kettle's on 14:58, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Aaaaahhhhhhh! No wonder! I kept instead thinking of one of Pound's adaptations, "Two murders, three robberies, and something like a rape [xxxx] on our friend Florio's conscience...." That's from the same initial volume. I think my memory was doing one of those gilt by association things. (Yes, I spelling that wright.) Geogre 11:02, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Unprotection

Ah, thanks for the quick response. Don't worry, I'm not offended. :-) In fact, I was glad when I saw who it was that responded. By this point I was considering uprotection, since a few of the editors that were involved in the edit war caused protection were the ones wanting it unprotected, and sounded like they weren't planning on a repeat considering the new scrutiny. But I wasn't going to touch it myself (with a 39-and-a-half fool pole) because of all the fuss made for the original protection. (Now about that Samuel Beckett quote on your userpage...) Dmcdevit·t 10:04, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I'm still undecided about Beckett. Or, I think I thought I knew what I thought yesterday. But I forgot. Wait, where are we? Oh well. I'm hungry. (My boots!) Dmcdevit·t 10:26, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Yes yes yes! Remember you read it here first!

In the FuelWagon/Ed Poor request for arbitration, six arbitrators have now voted to support the remedy "For repeated abuse of his sysop powers, both past and present, Ed Poor is desysopped". Six are a majority. Bishonen | talk 00:57, 14 December 2005 (UTC).

Hey, lady, want to buy these flowers? (Might be a US-only joke...not sure what they do elsewhere.) Geogre 03:43, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Let's just wait until the fat lady sings. Filiocht | The kettle's on 08:08, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
See, in the US, there used to be these people who would sell flowers at the redlights and take the proceeds back to their chapter houses. There were widespread charges that these folks were protein-deprived. Geogre 18:41, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Esperanza elections

Hi Filiocht/Archive nine: This is a quick note just to let you know that there's an election under way at Esperanza. If you'd like to become a candidate for Administrator General or the Advisory Council, just add your name here by 15 December 2005.

Voting begins at 12:00UTC on 16 December and all Esperanza members are encouraged to join in.

This message was delivered to all Esperanza members. If you do not wish to receive further messages, please contact Flcelloguy. Thank you.

➨ ❝REDVERS❞ 09:48, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] User talk:Geogre

Please stop misrepresenting the point of this template with the apparent intention of stuffing the TFD with votes in your favor. — 0918BRIAN • 2005-12-14 13:50

  • You moved to delete in the same message you raised concern about the template. You decided to avoid any discussion, and are now calling this template "the latest item of worship" on user's talk pages. It's hard to see any "good faith" in your efforts, but thanks for the link to that guideline. — 0918BRIAN • 2005-12-14 13:57
    • Good faith because I'm only listing if as I don't see its value. If the consensus is that I'm wrong, I have no problem with that. Let's leave it to the good sense of the community. Filiocht | The kettle's on 14:02, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

It's still on TFD, and there has already been an edit war! Remember the mess with the bio-box? Everyone must have it? You cannot refuse? If you work for months on the article, get it just so, you have no defense against someone adding this thing, reformatting the text, and reducing a complex and highly nuanced discussion to Born, Where, Died, Did. Well, I raised some of my concerns about this template on TFD that are related: who gets to put it on? Can anyone remove it? Who decides who the "maintainers" are? Geogre 14:11, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] News from Esperanza

Hello, fellow Esperanzians! This is just a friendly reminder that elections for Administrator General and two advisory council positions have just begun. Voting will last until Friday, December 30, so make sure you exercise your right to vote! Also, I'm pleased to announce the creation of the Esperanza mailing list. I urge all members to join; see Wikipedia:Esperanza/Contact for more information. All you need to do is email me and I will activate your account. This will be a great way to relax, stay in touch, and hear important announcements. Thanks! Flcelloguy (A note?)

This message was delivered to all Esperanza members by our acting messenger, Redvers. If you do not wish to receive further messages, please list yourself at WP:ESP/S. Thanks.

[edit] Template:Maintained

Please see the note added directly into the template, and at least consider changing your vote to neutral, as David Gerard has done:

Note that this does not connote any form of article ownership, and you do not need any approval to make changes to the article.

The current form may not be perfect, but it's a big improvement. Thanks. — 0918BRIAN • 2005-12-19 00:09

[edit] Josip Murn

I happened to find your stub for Josip Murn Aleksandrov, and made an attempt to add a few small details. I'll try to do more over the coming weeks. How did you happen to start this one? The answer just might provide some useful content to 'tie' him into the English-speaking world. — Stumps 13:18, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Found religion?

Has Filiocht found religion? What was it doing there behind the rice? Paul August ☎ 15:23, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Holy moly! That's the level of question we get? How do I start my own religion? Good grief! Surely these "posers" are from poseurs? No one can be that dumb and still find the big red switch that turns on the computer. Geogre 23:40, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
I lost the grail last March while using it for my toilet paper holder research. How it got behind the rice is quite beyond me, I'm afraid. There are some things religion just can't explain. Filiocht | The kettle's on 08:22, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Happy Crimbo!

Have a Proper and Merry Crimbo. Image:Pressie.gif, in fact here is a pressie from the Doctor to you. Ho. Ho. Ho! Image:Unclecrimbo.gif Dr. McCrimbo 23:31, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Happy Christmas Filiocht! Giano | talk 14:17, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Merry Christmas, Mr Filiocht. —Theo (Talk) 07:45, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Oops!

Sorry, Filocht. I made an honest misreading of your candicate statement and thought you said withdraw when I moved it to the withdrawn page. No harm was meant. --Improv 01:31, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Main Page

Congratulations on Imagism making the Main Page. —Theo (Talk) 20:41, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Pound image

Hi Filiocht -- unfortunately, it seems that the National Portrait Gallery claims copyright of the Pound image, and in places where it appears elsewhere on the web, it is listed as "courtesy NPG", so I've had to mark it as a copyvio. Hopefully we can find a free or public domain image of Pound (perhaps on a US government site?) Sdedeo (tips) 02:46, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Oop! Strike that; published 1913, hence now in public domain! I've rv'd myself, and put more info on the image so someone doesn't make the same mistake I did. Sdedeo (tips) 02:49, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Happy New Year

Father Fil cradling Baby New Year.
Father Fil cradling Baby New Year.

Happy New Year!—Theo (Talk) 00:05, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Happy 2006 to Father Fil. Paul August ☎ 05:48, 1 January 2006 (UTC)


[edit] New Year's over - Lets get to work

Hurry up and get that computer switched on - some of us have been at work here for hours - Do you know of any free images for [4] those I have there are all a bit dodgy, and I'll probably have to argue for them at some stage. Also do you know which bit in The Cantos she was the muse for, and which bit refers to her, then it can go in a caption under a pretty pic of Venice. No I've not forsaken architecture, I was just talking to someone who once knew her and I thought she sounded quite interesting, far more so than poor mad old Ezra. I don't like the "behind every good man" expression, but in this case it may well be true. All info greatly received. Giano | talk 08:53, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes where the heck is Fil anyway, we're all out of milk and sugar here! Paul August ☎ 06:06, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
  • It'll be Christmas again by the time he comes back of his holiday, is this what got the Celtic tiger off the ground? Lazing about drinking tea and Guinness I suppose. I'll start to re-write The Cantos (he omitted the Italian philosophical thought and lyrical wax that Pound was trying to demonstrate subconsciously) that should bring him back pretty smartish. Giano | talk 08:27, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] TfD nomination of Template:Infobox Biography

Template:Infobox Biography has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at Wikipedia:Templates for deletion#Template:Infobox Biography. Thank you. DreamGuy 07:17, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Arbcom candidate userbox

Greetings. I've made a new userbox for arbcom candidates to show on their userpages so that visiters will know they're running.

{{User arbcom nom}}

If you'd like to place it on your userpage, feel free. Regards, – Quadell (talk) (bounties) 02:17, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kreymborg

I have created Alfred Kreymborg. Hope the hustings aren't getting you down. Charles Matthews 09:40, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hello?

Are you having a quiet couple of weeks, post-holiday? -- ALoan (Talk) 20:56, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Congratulations (or condolences?) on your election/appointment

We don't alway see eye to eye, but here's wishing you the best of luck and success in assuming your new tasks on behalf of all of us. ++Lar: t/c 21:40, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Congratulations!

My condolences Congratulations on your election to the Arbcom! May it be as thrilling and fulfilling as you'd imagined. I sure am glad you made it to this esteemed position - better you than me! :) – Quadell (talk) (bounties) 21:50, 23 January 2006 (UTC)


Congrats from me as well, and you'll be sure to hear from your local Signpost reporter soon... ;-) Flcelloguy (A note?) 22:15, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Congratulations on your solid run! You'll be great! --MPerel ( talk | contrib) 03:23, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm … I'd offer my congrats too, If I could find him. Paul August ☎ 03:33, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Comhghairdeachas, agus beir bua! Taim cinnte go n-eireochaidh go geal leat. Palmiro | Talk 19:58, 24 January 2006 (UTC)


Wonderful news, this: the Poet as Arbitrator. There's nary a doubt in my mind Filiocht will do well — in all likelihood, the best of the bench. When he comes back, that is. Wonder where he's gone off to. Daresay it really might take Giano's lyrical waxing and whatnot to get him back. ;) ENCEPHALON 12:54, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rosario again

Congratulations too, but i was here to call your vote in here Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rosario Poidimani (3 nomination). Can we ever get rid of this guy??? muriel@pt 13:23, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wheel warring

Since this was one of the issues during the election, I would like to hear the opinion of the new arbiters regarding wheel warring, as discussed in this ArbCom case, this quote by Jimbo, community opininon on the subject (summarized in the Signpost) and the draft Admin Code of Conduct. Please do not take this as an attack or request-for-censure of the people involved in that case I mentioned, but rather a question on the general principle whether something can be done about the increasingly prevalent wheel wars. Radiant_>|< 11:58, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia Signpost interview

Hello, Filiocht/Archive nine. I hope you don't mind taking a few minutes out of your busy Arbitration schedule to answer a few questions for the Wikipedia Signpost.

  1. How do you feel about getting the opportunity to serve on the ArbCom?
  2. What do you think of the election? Do you think they were conducted properly? What could have been improved, in your opinion?
  3. What would you say to those who supported you? Opposed you?
  4. What do you think of the other Wikipedians who were appointed along with you?
  5. What do you think of Jimbo's decision to re-appoint three Arbitrators (JamesF., Jayjg, Fred Bauder)? Do you support this?
  6. After a week on the job, what are your initial thoughts?
  7. What do you think are the strengths of the ArbCom? Weaknesses?
  8. If you could change anything, what would you change? Why?
  9. What are your thoughts on the clerk's office? Do you support it? Why or why not?
  10. Do you plan on finishing your term? If you had to make a choice right now, when your term expires, would you run for re-election? Why or why not?
  11. If there's one thing you could say to the Wikipedia community, what would you say, and why?
  12. Is there anything else you would like to mention?

Congrats on your recent selection. By no means feel obligated to answer all (or any) of the questions; though we'd appreciate it if you did. An article featuring your responses will be published on Monday. Thanks a lot, and don't hesistate to ask me if you have any questions at all! Flcelloguy (A note?) 00:47, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] An Esperanzial note

As I remember, the last spam that was handed out was on the 20th of December last year, so I think it's time for another update. First and foremost, the new Advisory Council and Administrator General have been elected. They consist of myself as Admin General and FireFox, Titoxd, Flcelloguy and Karmafist as the Advisory Council. We as a group met formally for the first time on the 31st of Decembe. The minutes of this meeting can be found at WP:ESP/ACM. The next one is planned for tonight (Sunday 29 January) at 20:30 UTC and the agenda can be found at WP:ESP/ACM2.

In other news, Karmafist has set up a discussion about a new personal attack policy, which it can be found here. Other new pages include an introductory page on what to do when you sign up, So you've joined Esperanza... and a welcome template: {{EA-welcome}} (courtesy of Bratsche). Some of our old hands may like to make sure they do everything on the list as well ;) Additionally, the userpage award program proposal has become official is operational: see Wikipedia:Esperanza/User Page Award to nominate a userpage or volunteer as a judge. Also see the proposed programs page for many new proposals and old ones that need more discussion ;)

Other than that, I hope you all had a lovely Christmas and wish you an Esperanzially good new WikiYear :D Thank you! --Celestianpower háblame 16:57, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Message delivered by Rune.welsh using AWB. If you wish to recieve no further messages of this ilk, please sign your name here.

[edit] Paper pushing notice

Because it's been a while since you have edited (and you were elected to the arbcom in the meantime) - I've been bold and marked you as "away" (so as not to make it more difficult to close case). Please drop me a note when you get this message (your editing is sorely missed). Raul654 00:17, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

I thought I'd drop in and tell you that you're missed, Filiocht. I hope everything's OK and that you rejoin us soon. Thanks! Flcelloguy (A note?) 22:50, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Me too! ENCEPHALON 22:56, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Poetry

I see Wikipedia:WikiProject Poetry has been marked inactive. Do you think it worth trying to resuscitate it? There's certainly a steady trickle of activity on poetry-related pages, and a new user was asking only yesterday about where a list of on-line poetry magazines should be (see User talk:Kpaul.mallasch and Talk:Poetry). — Stumps 21:55, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Best wishes

Sorry to hear about the illness. I hope it is nothing too serious. Get well soon. -- ALoan (Talk) 14:13, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I echo ALoan's sentiments - best wishes for a speed recovery. We were worried about you. Raul654 14:49, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Pneumonia, more or less on the mend now. But I'm very far behind with the little matter of earning a living and need to sleep about 12 hours a day. So on a wikibreak until when. Filiocht | The kettle's on 15:27, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
You poor thing. As Raul654 says, we were getting rather concerned. Our thoughts are with you.
In your honour, I have created a (rather inadequate) Irish-poet-stub. -- ALoan (Talk) 15:47, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Great to hear of you at last, Fil, and at least goodish news! Welcome back. Bishonen | talk 16:19, 7 February 2006 (UTC).
  • I told you all so. Why will people never listen to me? Oh yeah - get well soon Fil. Giano | talk 23:04, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Hey, good to hear of you again. Take care; look forward to seeing you really back. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 23:08, 7 February 2006 (UTC)