Portal talk:Feminism/Feminism Task Force

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Portal:Feminism/Feminism Task Force page.
Project
Gender Studies
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Category:WikiProject Gender Studies

Contents

[edit] Bravo!

Well done, everyone, particularly Grrrlriot! This portal is really shaping up! --Phyesalis (talk) 21:43, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Phyesalis! :) Feel free to post about this on other talk pages or feel free to invite others. I will do the same. We are the only members of the force and I have posted about it on a few users talk pages. --Grrrlriot (talk) 17:04, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi all. I got your message too :) I'm way busy here but I'll see what I can do to help out - Alison ❤ 17:07, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Hello Alison! :) Glad to know you got my message. Yay! I'm glad to hear that. We'd love to have your help! Add your name under "Participants". --Grrrlriot (talk) 17:11, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Needing References/Sources

Take a look at these 2 pages: User:Grrrlriot/to_do and User:Grrrlriot/create2. I need references and sources for ALL of them that are listed on those 2 pages. (Some aren't feminist related, but the 2nd link is feminist related.) I hope someone can help me out. If you can help me out, please post the references/sources on those 2 pages. Thanks! --Grrrlriot (talk) 17:47, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Can help on case by case basis

Hi, I'm reluctant to take on new commitments but occasionally have energy to help, message me on my talk page and I'll do what I can. Also I'm somewhat active with the Rescue project so if an article that is worthy and salvageable could potentially be tagged with {{rescue}} if put up for AfD. Benjiboi 10:53, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Hello Benjiboi! :) We'd love to have your help! Sign your name under "participants". Thanks! --Grrrlriot (talk) 18:50, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fat feminism and Amazon feminism

Can I put something on the agenda: Fat feminism and Amazon feminism. These two articles are a serious problem - I'm in the position that I think they should either be deleted or drastically reduced and merged to a section of Feminist theory in a sub-section about Body theory (the feminist uses of Bahktin, Foucault, Goffman etc). A part of me thinks the two pages in question border on hoaxes or cool ideas that cannot be properly sourced. I'd really appreciate a second, third and fourth opinion on them--Cailil talk 14:15, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Taking a quick look I would say keep both and develop. Fat feminism is intertwined with the lesbian movement with the group Fat!So being a prime example. Amazon feminism needs some good books sourced to help rewrite and refocus the lede but tying to examples of strong women olympians (and internationally known athletes) would seem to help add structure. Benjiboi 12:46, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Here's the problem, there is a strand of Lesbian feminism that could be called Amazon feminism (see Feminism and the female body: liberating the Amazon within by Castelnuovo & Guthrie, and Amazon to Zami: Towards a Global Lesbian Feminism by Reinfelder) but the page is a synthesis based upon an online essay talking about popular culture representations/images of 'Amazons'. Right now the Amazon feminism article has a major truthiness problem. Simply put there are no relibale sources to back up what it says. Basically if the article is to be written properly it should be merged into Lesbian feminism and be properly sourced, rather than being an essay on pop culture and body-building. Fat feminism is not actually a distinct feminist movement either. I'm quite familiar with Bordo's work on eating disorders but I have not come across a single book describing, historicizing or explaining Fat Feminism's ideas, theories or activities. While I agree that the organization Fat! is important I don't see how Fat feminism is notable enough for its own article. I really see these pages as being in need of a fundamental re-think. Body theory has no WP page and is already a notable academic discipline within gender studies (the work of Foucault, Goffman, Bordo etc, see Feminist theory and the Body or The Body and Social Theory). Unless someone else can find reliable sources for Fat feminism and Amazon feminism they need to be questioned--Cailil talk 16:39, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I suggest a slow burn fix then. Post what you've put above on the relevant talk pages stating that sources may exist but none have been introduced as of yet. Also unsure why they can be sourced in the larger article and not separately but there ya go. I would clean-up tag each article with the biggest concerns synthesis, sourcing, whatever. Chillax for a few weeks and see if something turns up. If not then repost to talk and restate concerns and wonder aloud, "perhaps a merge to blah-de-blah article would be a good idea". See where that goes. If nothing then slap merge tags and ensue discussion keeping each discussion relevant to just the article at hand. Either you'll get much better articles or a merge. Benjiboi 18:49, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Sorry if I sound a bit frustrated above - I've been trying to do something with those 2 pages since Christmas. And just to clarify I actually don't think fat feminism can be sourced anywhere, but the kernel idea - weight issues and feminism and feminist theory - could be dealt with (using RS) elsewhere. Similarly with Amazon feminism, we'd have to scrap the whole article and start from scratch - that maybe the only thing to do in the circumstances unfortunately--Cailil talk 20:49, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] List of feminists

Hey folks, a worthy project would be finding citations for all the listings in this list. I've had to deal with deletion fights for couple anarchist-related lists that were only headed off by very vigilant citing. Murderbike (talk) 18:51, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Hey Murderbike! :) That's a pretty good idea for this project! Feel free to participate in this by signing your name under "participants". Thanks! --Grrrlriot (talk) 18:52, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
On a related issue could I ask for some ideas about the lists of persons of interest on Feminism. I'm opening a this thread here to specifically discuss how we deal with the lists. I realize that edits like IronAngelAlice's are good contributions but they are in breach of WP:LIST and they do not conform to the style for summary articles. What I'm proposing is we merge the lists into the see also sections of the appropriate sub-articles (where sub-articles exist). The other option is we prune them and use {{related}} to list the best (3-5) known figures, topics and/or organizations related to the specific feminist movement. What does anyone else think?--Cailil talk 21:47, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
I've gone and made a "mock-up" in my sandbox here. I'd like to build some consensus before making these changes--Cailil talk 14:58, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
We could also list the feminists from the Feminism article on the List of feminists article. It would be good to use {{related}}. I like the "mock-up" on your sandbox page, Cailil. --Grrrlriot (talk) 18:45, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Adding the names to the list of feminists is probably the best thing to do. I promised some action on this at the "weekend" so I think I'll make the change in the early hours of Sunday--Cailil talk 19:11, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
I will keep an eye out for updates to the Feminism article. --Grrrlriot (talk) 05:03, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
I would be happy to contribute in any way - thanks Grrrlriot for bringing this to my attention. Mgoodyear (talk) 00:36, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Your welcome, Mgoodyear. --Grrrlriot (talk) 00:16, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Images

One of the real problems I've encountered in bringing the quality of various feminism and gender studies related article up to GA is lack of pictures. I'd like to put forward an idea that any images on flickr or similar sites published either with GDFL or Creative Commons licensing should be sought for addition to the commons. Anyone who undertook this would have to get to grips with wikimedia's licensing and image policies (which is an area I know little about) so that the images don't infringe copyright and are properly described. If anyone has any knowledge of this process it would benefit the project greatly--Cailil talk 21:14, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree, There is a lack of pictures. I have no knowledge in this field either. --Grrrlriot (talk) 00:00, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
Maybe ask for advice at featured images. Also on biographies you can 1. modify the talk bio tag to indicate an image is needed and 2. add an image needed in the article infobox. There is also a talk page template for requesting images for non-bio articles. Benjiboi 01:26, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the responses. The info on requesting images will be a real help. I also found the link to the creative commons part of flickr from WP's resource exchange. Finding images for biographies shouldn't be too hard - it's the more abstract ideas like (domestic violence), (equal rights) etc that are harder to find appropriate images for. This will all be start--Cailil talk 13:03, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I have extensive experience with appropriating Flickr images for Commons, so if you see a Flickr image you like that has a free license, just drop me a line or comment here and I will arrange the upload. Skomorokh 12:49, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

That's great - thanks for that offer Skomorokh --Cailil talk 19:49, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Suggested rewording of scope

I've suggested a rewording of the task force's scope to depersonalize the "if you troll I will warn you". Like everything on WP this is a group effort, so if trolling occurs trolls will be warned as per normal WP procedure under WP:TALK, WP:SOAP, WP:NOT#FORUM and WP:EQ.

I've done some other rewords. I've removed the "who support feminism" from the the clause "open to men and women". The task force has to be open to everyone regardless of their views on feminism - so anyone can join as long as they respect WP:5P. In other words so long as their purpose is to work civilly, in good faith and by consensus to improve encyclopedic content on the subject of feminism, anyone can join--Cailil talk 13:56, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I totally agree with you, Cailil. That's great! Thanks for doing that. I'm not good at wording things sometimes. lol --Grrrlriot (talk) 00:18, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Gender equality is one of this project's central concepts. It was AWOL.

(reposted from Portal_talk:Feminism)

Essentially, variations on Gender equality had been hijacked six or so months ago by redirects to both Zygarchy and Equalism, and had actually begun to affect the conversation across the internet.

This is bad news, as these terms have nothing behind them but ill-defined assertions. I've rarely been embarrassed for Wikipedia, but this is one of those moments where the site's power was left in the hands of POV/OR mischief-makers.

"Zygarchy" is a made-up word that would never meet the WP:NEO standard if anyone had caught it. It has never meant "rule of two genders" before someone asserted it on Wikipedia. There are a couple hundred blogs out there crowing about the "new word they'd learned" while learning less than zero about notable, verifiable internationally-established gender policy. (Somewhat ominously, "zygarchy" is an obscure but genuine term for an ancient military formation involving two chariots. I think the chariots were used to run infantry over... or to cut them down with a chain between them...)

"Equalism" has been used by notable sources and scholars-- but never consistently. There was some effort to use it to refer to communism in the fifties, anarchism at various points, and some among the Facebook crowd seem to like it better than "feminism"; one news citation in Sweden counts it as a subset of feminism. That is to say, it's a semantic game: There is no "-ism" there, just a desire for one, a moving target without a developed philosophy behind it. I've redirected it to a far more notable article, Egalitarianism.

Nearly every instance of a wikilink to Gender equality had been piped to Equalism. That's what last night was all about for me: finding and removing the plumbing from this phantasm.

I've reestablished the Gender equality article with cites to the UN and an external link to the World Bank. I've added it to the various gender studies and feminism templates. This is one of this project's central concepts, and we really have to watch these pages. Cheers, Yamara ✉ 21:43, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing this up, Yamara! :) I just added Gender equality to my 'watchlist'. --Grrrlriot (talk) 00:20, 7 June 2008 (UTC)