Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/University of Oklahoma/archive2

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted 17:04, 10 June 2007.

[edit] University of Oklahoma

Previous FAC

The old nom was gigantic and I could not make heads nor tails of it. I'm resetting it. Raul654 23:59, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Oppose As stated in the previous review, this article does not meet WP:MoS, WP:GTL, and FA requirements. I think the article is good, but is missing key ingredients. Please realize that this is a cut & paste from the previous page. I spent a good four hours poring over it and I have no intention of repeating that. If an issue has already been addressed, please note it and I will cross it off. Comments and discussion from the previous review have been included

• "Located on campus are two prominent museums including an art museum and a natural history museum which specializes in the history of Oklahoma." needs commas, redundant use of "museums."
• "Landscaping is still a vital focal point of the university." reference?

Reworded. still no references. Oldag07 03:43, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

• "The Presbyterians and Baptists got along but the Southern Methodists conflicted with the administration. Two notable Methodists, Rev. Nathaniel Lee Linebaugh and Professor Ernest Taylor Bynum, were critics of Boyd and activists in Haskell's election campaign. When Haskell was elected, he fired many of the remaining Republicans at the university, including President Boyd." reference
• "The campus continued to grow over the next several decades. By 1926, the university encompassed 167 acres (0.7 km²). The South Oval was developed, allowing the campus to spread further south. A new library was built in 1929 at the north end of the new oval." reference?
• "...most were severely deteriorated by the late 1980s and were demolished in the 1990s to make room for redevelopment." source?
• "The Jimmie Austin University of Oklahoma Golf Course was built as a Navy recreational facility.[19]" U.S. Navy is capitalized, navy by itself isn't.
• "The installation was given to the university in the post-World War II demobilization. This airfield's Naval past is commemorated by Naval aviator's wings displayed at the entrance to the terminal." source?
• "These apartments are now Kraettli Apartments." Unsourced. And why is this of any importance? named after someone?
• "George Lynn Cross took over as President of the University in 1943, two years after the U.S. entered World War II. He remained at the helm until 1968, 25 years later. He is the longest serving president in history of the university. The next 25 years after Cross stepped down saw five more presidents. In 1994, the university finally hired a man that would remain president for many years."

1. source
2. "25 years later." 25 years is redundant since both years are in consecutive sentences and serves no useful point until the next sentence, where it is far more appropriate.
3. "He is the longest serving president in history of the university." Take out the adjectives at the beginning and you get "He is the president...", it should be "He was..."; "in history of" should be :#"in the history of..." Recommend rephrasing to, "This span of 25 years made him the longest serving president in the history of the university." or something similar

• "A short list of some of the new developments include..." is like saying "This sentence is short..." and is not needed.
• "purchase of the new 60 acres (0.2 km²) location of OU-Tulsa" how are acres new and how is it a development?

• This is explained further down in the Oklahoma City and Tulsa secion.↔NMajdan•talk 19:19, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

• My problem is not with the new OU-Tulsa campus, it is with the placement of the adjective "new." The acres are not new, the campus is; therefore, "new" is misplaced. Perhaps "purchase of 60 acres (0.2 km²) for the new OU-Tulsa campus"?

• "A short list...and the National Weather Center.[24]" too long to be one sentence. break it up into under construction, developments, completed projects. Maybe add their impact and/or significance?
• "The Oklahoma Mesonet, a state-of-the-art network of environmental monitoring stations that is an OU-OSU partnership, won a special award from the American Meteorological Society (AMS), the nation's leading professional society for those in the atmospheric and related sciences."

1. Source?
2. "that is an OU-OSU partnership" very awkward
3. "won a special award" how and what kind of special was it? was it special to you? was it special to the university? etc. (sorry for the sarcasm, but I'm just trying to make a point that it is vague and be a little funny at the same time)
4. "the nation's leading professional society for those in the atmospheric and related sciences." Simply not needed. AMS stands alone, especially with a link to their page.

• "The university is composed of fifteen colleges, including many majors such as..." how many majors do you really have? "many" is a weasel word.
• No source for the entire intro paragraph for "Academic profile"
• "Following the Sooner's 2000 football national championship season, the university experienced a surge in college applicants and admissions. In 2001, 5,279 new freshman were enrolled. In 2006, 3,342 freshmen were enrolled." How exactly is this a surge? How exactly does this demonstrate a surge?
• "...over 700 National Merit Scholars, making it number one per capita among public universities" number one is odd terminology. Maybe "F1RST, per capita" "first, per capita" (Sorry couldn't resist needling a bit :-) )
• "These colleges include (with student percentages in parenthesis)..." Simply phrase it the same way you did with the first set of colleges. This way is awkward.
• "The museum opened with over 3,000 items on display and was originally located on campus in Jacobson Hall." Source says 2,500.
• "...then, the museum has acquired many renowned works of Native American art..." remove dead/broken/nonexistent wikilink
• "The Sam Noble Oklahoma Museum of Natural History that specializes in the history of the people..." as opposed to the Sam Noble Oklahoma Museum of Natural History that specializes in something else? rephrase.
• Several references (just look down the list) do not use the provided citation templates, dates accessed, etc. (please note that templates are not required at all, but proper citations are. In addition, I feel that you should stick to one form or another throughout the article)

• Reference 7 is unnecessary if "As of fall 2006..." is incorporated into the text.

1. Reference 24 no link to the PDF or page number for the magazine
2. Reference 25 should be a listed properly as a reference or be placed elsewhere
3. References 77 & 80 are dead links
4. References (such as 58 and 98) do not fill the proper fields of the given template and, therefore the works are not italicized properly: e.g. Time Magazine; this should be in the "journal" field. The "publisher" is not the name of the magazine. For Time, I believe it is "Time, Inc.", but it might be "AOL Time Warner." You'll have to check.
5. And this is just a pet peeve of mine and I'm not sure if it's formally covered in the WP:MoS, but I hate it when references are out of order, e.g. blah blah blah.^[21][7]

• Shouldn't the title of the section "Norman" be something else like "Norman campus"? You are clearly talking about the school and not the city.
• Refs for:

• "The Norman campus is centered around two large "ovals." The Parrington Oval (or North Oval as it is more commonly called) is anchored on the south by Evans Hall, the main administrative building."

• Can a map be a reference?↔NMajdan•talk 23:01, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

• The media (map, audio recording, video, etc.) isn't terribly important. The questions to be asked are related to its reliability - Who published it? Are they trustworthy? Is it verifiable? etc. If you're confident in answering "yes" to those questions, then I don't see any reason not use a map as a reference. --ElKevbo 23:10, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

• A map would be an ideal reference for this section. — BQZip01 — ^talk 13:48, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

• "On the east side of the central part...honoring the Native Americans who defined so much of Oklahoma's history..."
• "The portion of campus south of Lindsey Street...and features indoor and outdoor pools."
• "Directly north of the main campus on Boyd Street...and the Norman population at large."
• "South of student housing is Timberdell Road, the approximate southern boundary of the university. South of this road are University-owned apartments and athletic complexes."
• "This area also includes many athletic complexes...completed on the south end of campus."
• "The southern boundary of the south campus is State Highway 9."
• "On the far north side of Norman is the OU Research Park...frequented by students with the exception of those studying meteorology or aviation."
• "The University of Oklahoma Health Sciences Center...presence in Oklahoma City."
• "The nineteen buildings that make up the OUHSC campus...and new scientific ventures."
• "Established in 1972 as a branch of the main medical school campus....has grown but scattered."
• "Construction on the new building is nearing completion."
• "The Academic Arts Community, more commonly referred to as Cate 5 or Honors...with the Couch Cafeteria completing the residence community."
• "Located in between Adams and Walker Centers is the Adams/Walker Mall...as well as its own computer lab and laundry facilities"
• "Due to the lower cost of living in Oklahoma, many students find it financially viable to live off campus in either apartments or houses."
• "The offices of many of these organizations are in the Oklahoma Memorial Union (student union)."

Also watch the weasel word "many". How about "a majority" or "a minority"

• "The student union provides...bands, dances, give-aways, and other activities."
• "A large intramural field...Members of the band are also present for many student events."
• "The campus radio station...affiliated with NPR."
• "Oklahoma has a strong social fraternity...Panhellenic Association was 3.30." dead link
• "The main governing arm of the student body...located in the student union."
• "The General Counsel is the chief legal counsel...all of the campus-wide events that happen on campus."
• "The school's sports teams are called the Sooners...before the land run officially started."
• "They participate in the NCAA's Division I-Bowl...nine sports for both men and women."
• "...and seven national championships in football (football championships are not awarded by the NCAA)." Definitely need to prove this one. You may want to leave split championships out or they may cause problems.
• "Many Pro Football Hall of Famers, including Lee Roy Selmon and Troy Aikman, also attended the University of Oklahoma." Also fix weasel word "many" or prove it and define "many"
• "The men's gymnastics team has won seven national championships including championships in 2002, 2003, 2005 and 2006."

• Change "The Parrington Oval (or North Oval as it is more commonly called)..." to "The Parrington Oval, colloquially called the North Oval,... and get rid of all of these items in parenthesis.
• "On the east side of the central part of campus lies Gaylord Family - Oklahoma Memorial Stadium" Fix subject-verb agreement.
• Wordiness: "There are also four buildings on the main campus..." should be "Four buildings on the main campus..." you could also throw in "Additionally" to keep the flow going.
• "University-owned apartments" should be "university-owned apartments" IAW WP:MoS.
• "Lloyd Noble Center (the basketball arena)" Again, remove parenthesis and subreference; wikilink should be sufficient.
• remove "(ICAO airport code KOUN)" Of trivial importance; should be in the wikilink for anyone interested.
• "Oklahoma Health Sciences Center, established in the early 20th century, is OU's presence in Oklahoma City." When exactly was it established? Is this their sole presence in the City? How about the fans? How about other student organizations. Not saying that it isn't the sole entity of the campus that is there, but it should be better phrased.
• "Between 1972 and 1999, OU's presence in Tulsa has grown but scattered" How about "growth was significant, but scattered"? Show how significant the growth was or choose another adverb.
• "In 1999, a 60 acres (0.2 km²) site formerly owned by BP Amoco was sold to the University for $24 million (even though the property was appraised at $48 million)."

• "60 acres site" fix adjective/noun agreement
• remove parenthesis and replace with commas. There is a lot of this throughout the article that needs to be incorporated or replaced.

• "370,000 square feet (34,370 m²)" fix approximation to the nearest thousand, not ten.
• "Oklahoma requires, with few exceptions..." what are the exceptions? Link states that this is a Regent requirement, not a state requirement.
• "Three of these building are towers (12 stories each): Adams Center, Walker Center, and Couch Center; the other two are quads with Cate Center being the primary quad and Cross Center being a spillover location." Very awkward phrasing. Split into two sentences as well.
• "Some of these apartments were old and dilapidated, and the university has taken the strides to resolve this issue." Just delete this uncited reference and state that the ones that were demolished were destroyed for whatever reason.
• "Two brand new complexes owned by the university opened in recent years; OU Traditions Square East in 2005 and OU Traditions Square West in 2006.[69]" Improper use of a semicolon.
• "One older complex, Kraettli apartments, still has residents (mainly families and law students[70]), while another, Parkview Apartments, were recently demolished.[71]" Wrong placement of citation. S-V agreement: "another" is singular, "were" is plural.
• "Since 2002, four new apartment or condominium complexes (not including the OU-owned properties) have been built[72] in addition to a booming housing market that is resulting in Norman spreading further east." run-on sentence
• "Many' students commute from nearby Moore and Oklahoma City." Weasel word; no citation.
• "Focuses of these organizations range from ethnic to political, religious to special interests." I think "range" is the wrong word here. It implies that there is a range between extremes. If you think there is a range between "ethnic and political" and "religious and special interests," what is in between? I think that religious and special interests doesn't really cover much ground. Where do professional organizations fall in? I'd rather see "include focuses in..." and then a list.
• "These programs can include...give-aways..." scratch "can"; spell giveaway properly
• The Pride of Oklahoma...The Pride celebrated..." is this the nickname for the band? Make it obvious "The Pride of Oklahoma, also known as The Pride..."
• "...and consists of 311 student musicians and dancers from 19 states." Keep the same tense in verb usage
• "The full band makes trips to...and the bowl game." should be "Big 12 Championships, and bowl games."
• "In some circumstances, the full band may travel if a game is of importance." Ambiguous. Is it under "some circumstances" (and what are those circumstances) or "if a game is of importance?"
• "...present for many student events." weasel word again...
• The campus radio station is The Wire, which is broadcast on TV4OU SAP and over the Internet. The campus TV station, TV4OU, features student produced programming five nights a week and is available on local cable (COX Ch. 4). "OU Nightly" is the live, student newscast which airs weeknights at 4:30 and 9:30. "The Sports Package" is a live sports program, which airs live Monday nights at 5:00 and throughout the week. The Wire and TV4OU are programmed through Oklahoma's Gaylord College of Journalism and Mass Communication. Oklahoma's Department of Continuing Education operates KROU and KGOU, a public radio station broadcasting on 106.3 FM. KGOU is affiliated with NPR." Italicize consistently and IAW WP:MoS. What does "which airs live Monday nights at 5:00 and throughout the week" mean? "KROU and KGOU, a public radio station broadcasting on 106.3 FM." do they both broadcast on the same band? at the same time? (some local stations do this when two local teams are competing in different venues at the same time. Since they are in stereo, they put one on the left channel and one on the right).
• "The campus newspaper is The Oklahoma Daily produced daily during the fall and spring semesters and weekly during the summer semester" run-on sentence
• "Many fraternities and sororities..." How many? Gotta watch those weasel words.
• "These events include Homecoming, Parent's Weekend, Big Red Rally (a pep rally before the start of the football season), Howdy Week (a welcoming of new students to campus in the fall), Winter Welcome Week (same as Howdy Week, except before the spring semester), Speakers' Bureau (committee responsible for bringing speakers to campus), as well as many others." Too many things in parenthesis. Eliminate "many."
• "...former students go on to local and national prominence. This includes..." should be "These include"
• "...many athletes..." Weasel word
• Missing citations for Lee Roy Selmon, Roy Williams, Tommie Harris, Billy Sims, Wayman Tisdale, Joe Washington, Darrell Royal, and Steve Owens. I know these guys are heroes for you. Just include a link with them in it and where they went to school. ESPN.com does a pretty good job for that.
• "George Lynn Cross, OU's president from 1943 to 1968, once told the Oklahoma" delete extra word "once"
• "...five Nissen Emery Award winners..." delete dead wikilink or make new topic.
• "The University of Oklahoma has had a long and bitter rivalry with the University of Texas..." delete had unless the rivalry has ended.
• This rivalry is often thought of..." how often?
• "Oklahoma <ADD also> has a longstanding rivalry with Oklahoma State University.
• "...it encompasses all the athletic contests" remove extra word or add "of"
• This is really getting into the weeds, but the references do not need blank fields in the citations. If you'll notice on the citation template page, they don't have a single example reference with a blank field, but almost all omit some fields. If you are going to do these templates, then I think they should all be done IAW the template guide. This is not a requirement (as is stated on the page), but I think a featured article should show the best, not just "good enough."
• Make sure you use & nbsp; appropriately throughout in using figures.
• The pictures of the Sower Statue, May We Have Peace, Pastoral Dreamer, the Edward Gaylord statue are pictures of copyrighted 3D works of art and need to be labeled as such. I recommend using the {{Template:Non-free 3D art}} template. In addition, the picture Image:Brooks Inauguration 1912 was indeed taken in 1912, but the image page states that it was pulled from the Sooner magazine in 1965 (a published work after 1923), and thereby violates copyright rules. I also can't find the picture in the source listed. I recommend finding a different source for the same image, a different image, make the source clearer (seems to be missing here if I am wrong), or just delete it (it isn't necessary for the article to become FA). — BQZip01 — ^talk 05:32, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I have corrected the source of the image. I have also placed an InterLibrary Loan for the 1912 Sooner Yearbook. Surely, if it were published prior to 1923, it would be in either the 1912 or 1913 yearbook. I tried the 1912 first. This will take some time to resolve as history has taught me it usually takes 3-5 weeks to get an ILL.↔NMajdan•talk 14:28, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

In short, I feel that this does not represent the best Wikipedia has to offer and, therefore, should not be a featured article at this time. It can certainly be improved to meet this standard and time should be granted to make these changes. — BQZip01 — ^talk 17:05, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

• So this is amounting to basically a reference for every sentence in the article. I'll work on what I can find.↔NMajdan•talk 23:01, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

• Wikipedia states "Encyclopedic content must be verifiable." There are claims made and there is no reference given. IMHO, unless it is a widely known fact, e.g. "Birds can fly," then it should be cited.
• Further: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed. Wikipedia:Verifiability is one of Wikipedia's core content policies. The others include Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Jointly, these policies determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in Wikipedia articles. They should not be interpreted in isolation from one another, and editors should try to familiarize themselves with all three."

• Some of the statements that the previous reviewer wants to be cited are difficult to find sources for, and some are almost borderline common knowledge, like Billy Simms going to OU and the fact that many students commute from Oklahoma City, for example. I would not hold it against this article if some of the "borderline common knowledge" statements could not be cited. It just might be hard to find sources for some of them, and I understand that. Okiefromokla•talk 01:43, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

• Respectfully, I disagree. Featured articles should be the example as to how to do an article. Took me all of 2 minutes to find and type the first reference:

• Billy Simms went to OU.^[1]

• As for this second one, "many students commute from Oklahoma City," it uses the word "many," a weasel word which is trying to assert an obscure fact. "Many of the students..." How many is many? Is it a percentage? Is it more than 100? more than 500? 1,000? Stick with verifiable facts. "Students can commute from OKC..." and cite one instances of someone doing so. It is that easy. — BQZip01 — ^talk 03:55, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

• I did not mean Billy Simms was hard to cite. I just meant that Billy Simms going to OU is borderline common knowledge. (I'm not objecting to it be cited, though). However, other things that may be of similar common knowledge may be difficult to find a reference for. For example, "Construction on the new building is nearing completion," may be hard to find a source for that as well, so it should probably be changed to the building's expected completion date. I, however, do not think it is controversial or widely unknown that students commute from Oklahoma City to OU. If there's not a source for this, I am not going to object to this article being a featured article. Saying that students commute from all over the Oklahoma City metorpolitan area (in different wording) is an even more reasonable claim, as OU is in the OKC metropolitan area. I would not object to that, either. My point is, after all the statements have been cited except those that are unable to be found and common knowledge anyway, we could look at some wording changes and I will be satisfied with that. The only agreement that could probably be reached (if there is no source to be found) is that some of the statements making a claim like "many students do this.. etc." could just be deleted all together. Okiefromokla•talk 17:42, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

• Until I looked him up, I didn't know who exactly who Billy Simms was. I didn't grow up in the South. I had heard the name, but didn't know his significance, especially in relation to OU.
• "Common knowledge" is a hard thing to nail down. I am trying to point out that things need to be sourced or rephrased. For example:
• Commuting: Just state how far it is from OKC to the campus and state that it allows for people to commute: "Students can commute from the nearby OKC metro area..." Cite a source that shows the distance and add a comment that the distance can be inferred as a commutable distance. I've done this for a few dozen things that I couldn't find.

• Claiming OU is in the OKC metropolitan area: Sure! Sounds like a solution, but again, just provide a simple source (if it is within 45 minutes of the city limits, then there is no issue). Maybe, "The Norman campus is within 45 miles of OKC, making it possible for students to commute from the metro area..."
• As for "The only agreement that could probably be reached (if there is no source to be found) is that some of the statements making a claim like "many students do this.. etc." could just be deleted all together." is ridiculous. If you can't back up a claim, then it is not verifiable and as it states in the box below where you edit your posts: "Encyclopedic content must be verifiable" (emphasis added).

Speaking as somebody from Scotland, I have neither heard of Billy Simms nor the University of Oklahoma. TimVickers 03:15, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Oppose As I had said in the previous version, the article is right now not feature-ready but it could be with some work, as has been outlined above. I will gladly support the article if the issues are taken care of, but with the length of time this article has been a candidate and the fact the the editors have all but given up entirely (see previous version) it doesn't look like any big changes will be made any time soon. Okiefromokla•talk 04:42, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Concur — BQZip01 — ^talk 04:53, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.