Talk:Fasting

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:
This article has an assessment summary page.

I've reformatted the article (put all the faiths in alphabetical order) added a "main article" note under political fasts, and generally straightened things. I also removed the cleanup tag, as there don't appear to be any obvious cleanup needs at this time; the content looks good and it seems well formatted. There wasn't any discussion here of what points necessitated cleanup, so if anyone has objections, roll back the changes or reinsert the cleanup tag, but make sure to list suggestions for cleanup here as well. -- Essjay · Talk July 7, 2005 21:36 (UTC)

My concern, and why I added the cleanup tag, was about some of the religious sections and their need for fact-checking (before I visited the article, the section on Jainism refered to a monk who fasted for a year (!)). Pakaran 22:38, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Does it look okay now, or do you think it needs some kind of verification tag? -- Essjay · Talk 23:05, July 18, 2005 (UTC)

I'm not particularly concerned about it, thanks though :) Pakaran 23:22, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

S'okay with me! -- Essjay · Talk

It can always use fact checking, but other than that, it's fine. HereToHelp 12:16, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

I would prefer to have the order chronologically. Anyone agrees? Wiki-uk 11:51, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

I like the current alphabetic order. -- Jeff3000 16:07, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Abstaining on Christmas Eve?

I've grown up in a Catholic household and never do I recall abstaining on December 24. Anyone want to comment on this? I don't have to worry, though. I'm a vegetarian. ;p --Ryan 07:06, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

When you say growing up, was this before or after the reforms introduced by Paul VI? Because of Paul's reforms all the fasting and abstainance requirements were reduced down to the current regulations, those being fasting and abstainance on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday, and abstainance on all Fridays of Lent. I was born after all the reforms were done, and abstaining was never part of either Christmas Eve or Day when I was growing up.
JesseG 06:03, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
I tried to find a place to talk for the Fasting and Abstinence in the Roman Catholic Tradition article, but perhaps it's not up yet. I have never learned or taught that in the United States fast and abstinence must be observed on Holy Saturday until noon or that Christmas Eve is a day of abstinence. Please note whether those two are worldwide observances or whether they are particular to an area.
A related issue is that it would be helpful if you would note somewhere that bishops or national conferences of bishops determine specific dispensations by diocese or by country. I believe it is the bishop of a diocese rather than an individual priest who can give a dispensation for St. Patrick's Day, for example.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.43.10.189 (talk • contribs)

[edit] Hunger strikes

Political fasts (today more commonly known as the hunger strikes) seem to be an invention of Mohandas Gandhi

I thought that I read that Irish political prisoners were engaging in hunger strikes before or at about the same time as Gandhi was fasting for political purposes. I'll fact check when I get a chance, but if anyone else wants to look into this that'd work too.

Hbackman 05:16, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

I've seen mention of suffragettes fasting as early as 1909, which is quite a bit earlier than Ghandi. So it's certainly not the invention of him, but may be correctly said 'popularized the use of hunger strikes' or something -- garlic --208.20.220.69 21:21, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

In the book "Ten Men Dead," David beresford gives some history of the hunger strike. I have used this information to add some information to its history, in the actual hunger strike article.

--L.A.F. 08:15, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Silence

I guess silence as a form of fasting is worth a mention here , rarely practiced today , but historically important.Pasha 12:21, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

you probably thinking on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vow vow of silence which is a different issue

Actually, silence as a form of fasting would belong in this section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.242.47.185 (talk • contribs)

Some religious traditions have included mental concepts or spiritual energy under a general rubric of "food", portraying some as harmful, some as beneficial, and often placing great emphasis on complete abstinence. This could justify briefly mentioning silence in this section. I believe, however, that it is properly placed in a discussion of forms of celibacy and renunciation, not fasting per se. -79.138.251.120 (talk) 00:53, 27 February 2008 (UTC)Lars, Copenhagen.

Judaism certainly has a practise of taanit dibbur - "a fast from speech", i.e. abstaining from any speech (apart from prayer and Torah study) for some specified time (e.g. a day, or a morning). -- Zsero (talk) 01:01, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fasting and Abstinence in the Roman Catholic Church

I created an article called Fasting and Abstinence in the Roman Catholic Church, and have used the new article to provide a more detailed explanation of fasting within the church. I did create a summary of the current regulations, and gave a brief history of the subject before Pius XII and Paul VI. If anyone feels that the summary needs more detail, I hope that they would feel free to make improvements on the summary and to not just revert the main article to an earlier version as has been done in the past.
JesseG 06:44, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Physical effects of fasting

In the "Physical effects of fasting" section it states "after approximately three days of fasting, feelings of hunger usually become infrequent or disappear altogether." I thought that one dies ater around three days of fasting, so if someone can find a citation for this, the statement will no longer need a direct a citation. But, I mean, that's only because the person would be dead after three days, and can no longer feel anything. But maybe what is meant by this is fasting without food (while drinking water) in which this would be a very different case. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.54.241.173 (talk • contribs)

I was under the impression that it took much longer than 3 days to die from fasting.. that is, if the allowance of drinking water is taken.--68.56.0.116 15:09, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

apers0n 18:40, 5 May 2006 (UTC) Citation added from Shelton (maybe someone could clean it up to list the reference properly) - this whole section ideally needs expanding

People do not die after three days of fasting -- that is nonsensical. People regularly go on water fasts for days and weeks -- on a fruit/vegetable juice fast I did for 42 days, I took water only for days at a time. I'm still here, thanks.

One will most likely die after 3 days of no water. However, most adults, with no medical complications such as diabetes or hypoglycemia, can go 20-40 days without food, depending on how much they have in "reserves." I personally have gone 4 days with drinking only water, and know many people who have gone weeks. It should be noted, however, that hunger pangs do not leave after 3 or 4 days, but actually after 7 to 9 days. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.164.20.34 (talk) 17:56, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Fasting at this moment, am in my 7th day, only on water and tea. Nothing else. Several of my friends have water fasted for 24+ days with no problems whatsoever. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.185.183.221 (talk) 17:50, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

On April 10th I completed a 27 day "juice & water fast" or liquid diet. A true fast would be "water only". I did make carrot, celery juice with my Acme juicer but also used store bought O.J, V8, apple, tea etc. I felt great & lost weight (1 lb/day)while maintaing my usually busy work routine. I like to do this twice/yr but it had been 5 yrs since my last fast. Truth is that I felt better, had more energy, felt more serene while fasting than I did when I started eating again. I first fasted in 1976 after reading Alan Cott's Fasting the Ultimate Diet. I later read Paavo Airola, Arnold Ehret, Sheldon Emry, Paul Bragg & many other's fasting books. My experience is fasting is much easier that trying to diet. Any stirrings of hunger are easily quieted by drinking as much liquid as you want. I wouldn't advise booze unless you want to join AA. I do believe I'm healthier & look younger than my 66 years. I've had no shots, medicinal drugs or even asprin since 1976. I have no health concerns that bother me and feel that periodic fasting is a healthy practice. I would encourage everyone to study this subject. Faster66 (talk) 20:19, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Redirect

Why does Roza redirect to Fasting? I need to make Roza a disambiguation page, and am not sure how to describe the existing redirect. Any help would be much appreciated.—Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) 16:58, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

apers0n 17:08, 5 May 2006 (UTC) Roza appears to be the Moslem word for fasting as practised during Ramadan [1] - are there any other meanings for disambiguation? if so, go to this page [2] to edit the redirect page.
Thanks, Apers0n, this was exactly what I needed for the disambiguation page.—Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) • (yo?); 17:18, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jainism clean-up

I've cleaned up the section about fasting in Jainism but am unsure about what the author means to say exactly, especially with the word "obeiasance" or something like that. So until there is further clarification, this is all I can do. Dihydromonoxide 13:01, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed merger with Fast Day

Fast Day and Fasting certainly share similar content and should be merged, but I wonder if it would be better to break off all the religious content into a separate article that reflects the religious nature as opposed to the secular, such as "Religious fasting"? --apers0n 05:13, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with the merge. Although Fast Days are no longer observed in the US, they are in other countries, where although their origins are religious, they have become mostly secular and are a type of public holiday. This isnt a strong opinion though --Storkk 12:20, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Master Cleanse

Anybody heard of the Master cleanse? Maple syrup and lemon juice and cyan pepper. It has a bunch of google hits.

It's effective I've used it to change health conditions and the compination of lemon, syrup and cayenne feels like a real organ conditioner. (RIA)

I've done Master Cleanse a few times as well as water fasting. MC is certainly hotly disputed on Wikipedia:Master Cleanse, but that page lacks enough information to do it correctly. It's in a little booklet you can buy or download TheMasterCleanse.pdf It's probably the most popular and certainly the most talked about among many versions of the "lemonade diet" which goes back at least 100 years. The main ingredient is the food enzymes contained in the fresh squeezed lemon juice which keeps you from getting hungry. Despite what Burroughs says, it should not be consumed hot as heat destroys food enzymes. The maple syrup is mainly there to limit the loss of body weight for thinner people; The nutrients in the syrup is a non-issue because just like water fasting, you don't require much because you're not taxing the digestive system or doing heavy physical labor; You're body's reserves are sufficient. The cayenne is supposed to wake up your cells for faster detox. Every two or three days on MC you'll begin to feel pretty low which Burroughs attributes to toxins building up in the digestive system, but I suspect it's a build up of cayenne pepper. To eliminate this he recommends the "salt water flush" which is laxative of sea salt in warm water; This gives you the runs for most the day. I donno where some people get off calling it a "top-down enema"; That's not the term used in his book and something I never heard before and contradicts the defination of an enema; Sounds like something made up to smear MC as the sea salt as a laxative is almost unheard of except with MC. I found that adding a small amount of fiber supplement works just as good as the laxative to keep you feeling well, but unafraid to stray far from the toilet and without disrupting your day; However, it's real easy to get constipated on fiber supplement by consuming it without food. Some people do this diet for up to 30 days straight, but they don't dare without quite a bit of prior experience. It's as close to water fasting you can get, but quite a bit easier and safer. 15+ day water fast done incorrectly can seriously damage your health or even cause death. Like water fasting, you'll be more mentally clear and require less sleep while on the lemonade diet. Just like water fasting, if done correctly you shouldn't be hungry or fatigued and should generally feel pretty darn good with only short moments of discomfort as toxins decide to move. And that's the overall general test to know if things are going well is how well you generally feel.
I find it interesting that Burroughs was convicted (later overturned) for murder because one of his patients died while following his advice go on Master Cleanse and refuse chemotherapy. MOST people who go on chemo die soon after. ALL but ONE person whom I've known who went on chemo died soon after, and the one survivor never really looked sick. 1500 people PER DAY die on chemo in the US, but just ONE person who was already very sick dies trying an alternative method and then here comes the law and lawsuits. Half a million people a year spend their life savings on mainstream cancer treatments, end up dying anyway and leave their surviving spouse deep in debt and that's ok, but just ONE person fails in an attempt to help someone with an inexpensive alternative and off to jail he goes. The system is so freekin corrupt, institutionalized corruption. Wouldn't surprise me if some of the people disputing Master Cleanse on Wikipedia actually work for the medical industry. There is certainly a big machinery to suppress alternatives. If you have any doubts about this, check out this excellent documentary on the war between the mainstream and alternative medicine in the 1960s: Free download: Hoxsey, the last great stand against the mainstream. This link doesn't seem to work quite right in the preview, please scroll down to Hoxsey: How Healing Becomes a Crime Ralph7770 (talk) 08:59, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Deleted dead link

Link to Darfur fast was dead. If it still exists someone should post the correct address


[edit] Fasting in Indigenous cultures in North and South America

I think there should be information about cultures in North and South America with regards to the Indigenous because fasting is a part of many of their cultures, spiritual practices, and ceremonies. OldManRivers 06:46, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Paragraph about Karen Kellock's views

User:Karenkellock has added a paragraph about her views on fasting. I don't think she meets the Wikipedia criteria for notability and this paragraph should be deleted. Thoughts? Rosemary Amey 21:08, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

agree. -- Jeff3000 22:24, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, it seems to be a joke and "violation". Maybe there's someone who's listening. It's both irrelevant and irreverent. (IB)

[edit] External Link Removal

I have noticed in several areas which relate to religion and to Biblical topics that links are reduced to a bare minimum; many of the links which remain are innocuous and probably rarely used (e.g., links to the KJV of the Bible). I added the following link with the following verbiage:


  • Christian fasting Most extensive online examination of fasting covering every related verse from the Old and New Testaments.


Originally the link was much shorter, but I felt that perhaps I needed to justify its existence, after it was removed the first time. This particular examination of Christian fasting examines every single verse in the Bible which references fasting (including those verses which are questionable). The original Greek and Hebrew words and related words are given as well. This is approximately a 38 page document, too large to be placed within this topic.

It is interesting that, on some topics, like "Michael Moore" and "Global Warming" there are a plethora of links; however, when it comes to the Bible or Biblical topics, the external links are often a fraction of the number of external links found elsewhere.Scutfargus 16:39, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Propose rearrangig

Feeling drawn to a minor cleanup in 'Physical effecs of fasting' (BMR), I find the material informative but the current sequence not catering well to a general audience. Keeping the first paragraph and all content intact, I propose following sequence,

  1. Physical effects of fasting
  2. Medical fasting
  3. Political fasting and hunger strikes
  4. Religious fasting
  5. Fasting in literature

Bernd in Japan 23:20, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] LDS

Why is the Latter Day Saints in its own subsection rather than with the other denominations and groups? According to wikipedia a denomination is "The term is frequently used to describe various groupings of Christian churches." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_denomination Tom 08:01, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Many Christians and Religious specialist define the LDS as a Christian cult. The LDS usually see themselves as a restoration movement (i.e. the one true church) and until recent times have not referred themselves as a denomination in Christianity but as the only true form of Christianity. Hence, LDS doctrine defines others that claim to be Christians as the true cults. See http://www.leaderu.com/offices/michaeldavis/docs/mormonism/onlytrue.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.184.43.141 (talk) 02:27, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

This does not address any of those questions. You didn't cite how wikipedia should handle this, or why it does in this manner. You cited a non wikipeida reason that has nothing to do with this. Try stating a Wikipedia policy or guideline to back this up. Furthermore, your use of cult is counterintuitive on a restorative church. See Christian cults and definition. Lastly, your comment, and the reference you provide are hardly NPOV. 166.70.62.200 (talk) 10:37, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] horrible sources

Like many medical articles the sources for this are ridiculous, many of referrenced books read like stupid shit you would order from a infomercial. Especially in the medical fasting section, the majority of all content written there is false and what is cited is cited from something so retarded and non scientific as well as old and discredited it makes me want to sue this damned wikipedia nonsense. "# ^ Fuhrman, Joel, MD, Fasting and Eating for Health : A Medical Doctor's Program for Conquering Disease 1998, pp. 1, 3, 21-23, 56-59, 70-72, 79-81 ISBN 0-312-18719-X"

Is not a reputable medical resource and no doctor that I know, including me would agree with the absolute asinine assertions taken from that infomercial sold piece of garbage... I'm removing it and protesting its reversion. 71.87.7.14 08:03, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Have you even read Dr. Fuhrman's book? I doubt it. I have, and have done pure water fasts of up to 14 days. I am 69 years old and take no medications. When I had a colonoscopy a couple of years ago, the doctor who performed it told me afterwards that I had the colon of a 30 year old, the best colon he'd ever seen in a man my age. I attribute that to the 10 day pure water fast I'd taken the year before. He had also pronounced me "cured" of hypertension after that fast.
Dr. Fuhrman's book is thoroughly referenced. It is not an infomercial book as you state. In fact it is well recommended by other physicians. Dr. Fuhrman "is a board-certified family physician in private practice in Belle Mead, New Jersey, who specializes in preventing and reversing disease through nutritional methods. He is an active staff member of Hunterdon Medical Center and provides nutritionally oriented medical care to patients as well as nutritional education to other physicians."
The Foreward to his book is written by Neal D. Barnard, MD, President, Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine. He concludes, "Dr. Fuhrman is foremost in this new generation of medical leaders. The information he provides in this volume is clear and practical and of vital interest to patients and doctors alike. I am grateful to Dr. Fuhrman for assembling this remarkable work, and recommend it to you wholeheartedly." Dr. Andrew Nicholson, MD, Director of Preventive Medicine, Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, says "Dr. Fuhrman's powerful and practical guidelines apply for conditions ranging from the common cold to serious heart problems. This program provides an alternative to the costly and all-too-common side effects of surgery and drugs."
Dr. James Craner, MD, says, "This is neither alternative medicine nor conservative medicine, but rather progressive medicine. Dr. Fuhrman's approach offers individuals suffering from chronic diseases the only real chance for a meaningful cure. I have been fortunate to observe many of these outcomes firsthand and can testify to the power of this approach for certain diseases."
Dr. Dan Jeret, MD, says, "If you are lucky, you will read Dr. Fuhrman's book before you have subjected yourself to medications and medical procedures. This book is for those who want to take charge over their health and well-being, and for those who want to embark on a journey toward a more satisfying life." I could include several other recommendations from other physicians, which are included in this book.
I suggest you read the book before you slander Dr. Fuhrman. Ralphyde 16:46, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Nice story, but it does not make such claims scientific and infact these assertions have been scientifically discredited. It's new age medicine bullshit. I went to medical school and I can tell you something that shouldn't even require a higher education, just common sense; Fasting is unhealthy and dangerous (and lethal) and not something to toy around with. Nice story, though.

On a final note since I'm not sure if you're even getting my point when it comes to citing doctors is that theres only afew million of us and it is not within scrupulous practice to write books making scientific medical claims when you are not a scientists and have no tangible evidence to support your medical theory. He's just a doctor, the person who wrote his foreward is just a doctor. They know what they have learned from higher sources and practice what they know unless they decide to sign a lucrative book contract and begin making shit up. Basically what I am saying is if you want me or anybody like me to be O.K. with adding such dangerous misinformation to a webpage undoubtedly viewed by many people you will need conclusive scientific sources, not a book written by another run of the mill new age medicine hack. If we were to believe these 'doctors' we would believe that sunrays are actually good for us and cure diseases and that spending $700 a month at your local general nutrition store on dietary supplements will make you live longer, it's all complete nonsense unless proven otherwise and the written words of one new age doctor does not prove a single thing. 71.87.7.14 01:53, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay, Mr. Know-it-all anonymous former medical school student, who believes that everything he didn't learn about must be wrong, why don't you even cite your sources? I suggest you go to page 227 of Dr. Fuhrman's book which begins 18 pages of medical citations for his chapters, or a total of over 260 citations throughout the book from all over the world. Just go to this Amazon.com link [3] and select the Search Inside feature, then insert 'Chapter Notes' and hit Go, select the second choice and page through as many pages of Medical and Scientific references as you like. You'll find that not only is it well referenced, but if you take the time to read some of it, you'll find that it works, as I have. While you're there you can read the introduction, the table of contents, and the back cover. You might even learn something. Ralphyde 04:05, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Current medical science suggests that the assertion made from that book in this article is false, that is all that is relevant. To clarify my point try finding any doctor in a developed nation that will recommend that you water fast for 10 days at all, even if you just ask them if that's ok let alone whether or not they will ask you to for health benefits. You wont find a single one that isn't in danger of losing his license. I know I'm right, common sense knows I'm right and before too long a certified expert on the subject will come here to clear this up, whether it be a colleague of mine or not.71.87.7.14 05:23, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Did you even bother to follow that link and read the 18 pages of references, or the intro, or any of the strong recommendations by developed nation physicians. It's useless to argue with a young anonymous know-it-all who says, "I know I'm right..." when he obviously knows nothing about the subject at hand. Ralphyde 16:44, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I know I'm right, common sense knows I'm right and before too long a certified expert on the subject will come here to clear this up, whether it be a colleague of mine or not.
Only someone from a proto-scientific discipline (at best) such as medicine would use common sense to back up his (or her) claims. The information regarding fasting provided on this page might be wrong, but the attitude this comment conveys is at least as unscientific. Doctors portray themselves as scientists when in fact the vast majority don't know what science is even if it hit them in the face. The only thing that distinguishes them from "quacks" is that they do use scientific information somewhere down the line, but this science is usually "made" by someone else and comes from real scientific disciplines such as Chemistry, Physics and some branches of Applied Mathematics. Apart from that they are as much junk as the alternatives they criticize. 'Science does not rely on authority so your certified expert on the subject isn't actually worth anithing "per se". It depends on what he says and how he corroborates it. So far you have presented no proof corroborating your claims.
The subject remains controversial and not fully decided yet so place references regarding both angles. Common sense in never an argument in science. Ever. --89.180.106.50 00:12, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
The talk page is meant to discuss improvements to the page itself. Please suggest improvements or changes to the page and cease using it as a forum for discussion. WLU 15:12, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree. WP:Talk page states, "Article talk pages are provided for discussion of the content of articles and the views of reliable published sources. They should not be used by editors as platforms for their personal views." (Boldface in original). MishaPan 15:18, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I would have to disagree with Ralphyde here. The assertions made in medical fasting are unscientific and unproven. For example, the increased insulin sensitivity is commonly attributed to moderate dietary restriction, which seems to have numerous health benefits in the long run. This however has absolutely nothing to do with fasting. Fasting, while if done with care and a sense of self-preservation, is not immediately dangerous but can become so in a very short span of time. I would greatly appreciate it if content was not added to wikipedia articles without FREELY AVAILABLE VERIFIABLE SOURCES. This is not the case in many of the claims in the section. The concept of "detoxification" is in itself questionable in this context, as many of the mechanisms the liver uses for the conjugation reactions needed in getting rid or unwanted foreign substances (through renal function) require generous amounts of ATP. And BTW: if common sense (assertions based on common knowledge and in this case professional expertise) is not a good argument here, I find a cute little story about some guy's colon a bit hard to swallow. The book he is referencing is indeed making wild claims that are based on little more than educated guesses. The references provided cannot be verified. Using my sources (MEDLINE and my array of medical textbooks) I could not find a single shred of evidence for the long-term health benefits of habituous fasting. In fact, I've found quite a lot of nastyness it can lead to... like muscle atrophy, mental retardation in kids and bad breath. [Sources used: MEDLINE, Boron: Medical Physiology, Alberts et Al: Molecular biology of the Cell]. Get over it.

Have a look at [4]. As to Fuhrman, see the references to Chapter 9 (A Chapter for Physicians and for Readers Who Want More Technical Information). Most of them can be found in Medline.
Fasting is academically recognized in Japan, Korea (South), Germany and post-Soviet countries. Scientific infrastructure (medical societies, congresses, journals, clinical monographies) exists there. German physicians, f.ex., can learn that modality within the subspecialty "Naturheilverfahren". Cfr. [5]. One can foresee a slow comeback of fasting in the U.S. via the experimental gerontology (influence of caloric restriction on longevity). Creating the international infrastructure would involve costs, and no commercially-interested sponsoring is to be expected. 213.155.169.65 18:29, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Critical Note: Please do not use such vulgar language. You went to medical school? Which one? Do you have a reference I can verify! Actually just go to the Wikipedia page on Calorie Restriction to see that fasting is the most SCIENTIFIC method to improve health and extend life. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JosephCampisi (talk • contribs) 19:36, 2 December 2007 (UTC) Sex is cool

So, if the Calorie restriction article proves that fasting is valid... why are they separate concepts and articles? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.72.186.78 (talk) 00:39, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with most of what Ralphyde has written. I have read the book on fasting reffered to above and I have done two water fasts already (each for about 12 days). My main reason for doing this is to rid myself of bad eating habits that slowly creep in over the years. Certainly Dr. Furhman is promoting his opinions as to the benefits of fasting, but on the whole I think he makes a very good argument. The precise figures that are quoted in his book might not hold up on closer scrutiny, but I think he has tapped into a quite valuable alternative for the medicated populations. Personally, I have found it difficult to restrict something that I get used to (diets don't work for me in the long run), so for me complete abstenence from food is easier. I found the description of what happens when you fast is accurately described in the book. According to the book, the idea behind water fasting is to reach a point when your body runs out of glucose, after which ketones are used as a source of fuel (much needed to keep your brain working). At this point (after about three days) your body goes into so-called "starvation mode" where it preserves as much as possible vital tissue and uses none-vital tissue for energy. Apparently when your body is on glucose energy and there is a dip it its availability, the metabolisation of muscle becomes the source of much glucose. This is not a good thing if it occurs for a prolonged period. It seems for this reason that you will starve to death drinking fruit juice at a very much faster rate than drinking only water. I have found fasts to be quite rejuvinating, and they certainly help you change your eating habits (at least for a year in my case) because one seems not to have cravings for so-called junk food (I'm normally quite a chocaholic). Dr. Furhman does caution that you should keep an eye on your levels of Pottasiun and Sodium if you want to do a fast for longer than 14 days. I asked my gp and several others about fasting, and they gave me the honest answer that they didnt know anything about it - though they didnt caution me against it either. Many people find it quite odd to stop eating as we are not programmed for it, perhaps this is why there is so much opposition against it. Wasn't it once "scientifically proven" that anti-dipressant worked?

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.58.253.57 (talk) 14:24, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
This article contains a pletora of factual errors, taken from some obscure literature or Internet. I would suggest an expert on metabolism to see over it and rerwrite some portions. For me as a doctor, this article is a horror story. jmak (talk) 08:17, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
You are simply not going to find any impressive sources on fasting for one simple reason, and that is there isn't a lot of money in fasting. Who is going to do a million dollar study on something anyone can do on his own for free? There is at least one fasting clinic in the US, but once you learn how you don't need a clinic anymore. Plus, fasting clinics are in direct competition with mainstream medicine. Whenever any one alternative clinic of any kind gets too big or gains too much credibility, lawyers crawl out of the woodwork to sue them should one person on treatment die even though the person was already barely clinging to life. The medical industry is 1/6th the US economy and the single biggest lobbying group, which means the government isn't going to pay for studies that offer competition to mainstream medicine. If they did do a study on fasting it would be to disprove its effectiveness. What you will find is a few dedicated doctors who actually want to help people. The best and most credible sources on fasting will be books by medical doctors and Dr. Fuhrman will be among the best. Plus, fasting isn't that complicated. Do you need a PHD to show you how to exercise? A football coach will know a lot more about that than the PHD. Ralph7770 (talk) 22:00, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fasting for Detox

Detox is not supported by any clinical trials. I recommend changing the detox line to "It is believed by some ..." As opposed to stating that "Fasting can be used for detox". No one is even sure that Detoxification is anything more than a fad. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.169.66.160 (talk) 20:21, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. In his book, Fasting and Eating For Health: A Medical Doctor's Program for Conquering Disease, Joel Fuhrman, MD states on page 10: "The powerful detoxifying effects of the fast cannot be obtained by following a restricted or supplemental diet. Only when there is total abstinence from all calories do we observe waste products being heavily excreted from the breath, the tongue, the urine, and the skin. Plus, the fast does not merely detoxify, it also breaks down superflous tissue - fat, abnormal cells, atheromatous plaque, and tumors - and releases diseased tissues and their cellular products into the circulation for elimination. This kind of dramatic detoxification cannot occur with supplemented eating plans. Toxic or unwanted materials circulate in our bloodstream and lymphatic tissues and are deposited in and released from our fat stores and other tissues. An important element of detoxification is mobilizing the toxins from their storage sites. This occurs best and most efficiently during total fasting."
Later, on page 19, in a section called "Detoxification and Improvement in Organ Function Occur Simultaneously," he states, "Nothing is more fascinating than watching toxins being rapidly discharged from the system while a person fasts. In fact, fasting has been employed to treat chemical poisoning by people who have recognized the powerful effect it has on accelerating the discharge of internal noxious wastes. One such enlightening use of fasting was the subject of an article in the American Journal of Industrial Medicine in 1984 entitled "A Trial of Fasting Cure for PCB Poisoned Patients of Taiwan." The study involved patients who had ingested rice oil contaminated with PCBs. After a seven to ten-day fast, dramatic relief was noted and improvements and improvement in symptoms was reported by all patients."
Dr. Fuhrman runs a supervised fasting clinic in New Jersey and uses only pure water fasts. His book has many more references to detoxification and is very well referenced. I suggest you go to page 227 of Dr. Fuhrman's book which begins 18 pages of medical citations for his chapters, or a total of over 260 citations throughout the book from all over the world. Just go to this Amazon.com link [6] and select the Search Inside feature, then insert 'Chapter Notes' and hit Go, select the second choice and page through as many pages of Medical and Scientific references as you like. You'll find that it is very well referenced.
And as 213.155.169.65 said above, "Have a look at [7]. As to Fuhrman, see the references to Chapter 9 (A Chapter for Physicians and for Readers Who Want More Technical Information). Most of them can be found in Medline." And further: "Fasting is academically recognized in Japan, Korea (South), Germany and post-Soviet countries. Scientific infrastructure (medical societies, congresses, journals, clinical monographies) exists there. German physicians, f.ex., can learn that modality within the subspecialty "Naturheilverfahren". Cfr. [8]. One can foresee a slow comeback of fasting in the U.S. via the experimental gerontology (influence of caloric restriction on longevity). Creating the international infrastructure would involve costs, and no commercially-interested sponsoring is to be expected. 213.155.169.65 18:29, 13 October 2007 (UTC) Ralphyde (talk) 22:01, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] BELIEVE this is in the wrong place or is illogical, how does a drug get in your system when fasting?

I removed this un-encyclopedic comment from the "cons" of fasting. If you're curious about the answer, read the reference, or have faith in this simplified explanation : when fasting, your glucose levels plummet and the liver starts a process to generate some replacement (cetonic bodies ?) because the nervous system absotely needs it. Using these as "fuel" generates toxic elements like acetone... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stephan Leclercq (talk • contribs) 15:24, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Starvation mode

Does this phenomenon actually exist? I.e., will your body really devour muscle before fat? I think we need to source this aspect of the article more thoroughly. Starvation mode (talk) 20:50, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Sure does exist and it's entirely possible to starve to death while still obese. It usually occurs during an extended, very restricted diet of cooked or preserved foods which are devoid of food enzymes contained only in raw foods. The classic example of a starvation diet consists of only cooked, lean rabbit or deer meat for weeks. It can also occur by sneaking in small snacks of low or negative nutrition food like twinkies during a long water fast. It's marked by intense hunger. The more intense the hunger, the faster the body is losing good tissue from muscle and internal organs instead of fat, toxins and waste. Ralph7770 (talk) 13:06, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] April cleanup

I removed a lot of unverified stuff from medical fasting and physiological effects of fasting. A lot of it just lacked citations altogether. Neither Joel Fuhrman nor Shelton are verifiable sources for a lot of the claims made in both sections. Their books are self-published, and such a source is unsuitable to make claims about "studies were made that fasting helps with cancer" as per WP:VERIFY. Exceptional claims require exceptional sources, and their books do not qualify. Please do not revert my changes without discussing it here first. FironDraak (talk) 10:08, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

WP:VERIFY doesn't automatically exclude self-published works. "The Miricle of Fasting" by Paul and Patricia Bragg is probably the best selling book on fasting, and it's self-published as well. Paul Bragg did introduce a 15 year old Jack Lalanne to nutrition. Should we exclude this source as well? Ralph7770 (talk) 13:41, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Dr. Fuhrman's book is not self-published, and is thoroughly referenced. In fact it is well recommended by other physicians. Dr. Fuhrman "is a board-certified family physician in private practice in Belle Mead, New Jersey, who specializes in preventing and reversing disease through nutritional methods. He is an active staff member of Hunterdon Medical Center and provides nutritionally oriented medical care to patients as well as nutritional education to other physicians."
The Foreward to his book is written by Neal D. Barnard, MD, President, Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine. He concludes, "Dr. Fuhrman is foremost in this new generation of medical leaders. The information he provides in this volume is clear and practical and of vital interest to patients and doctors alike. I am grateful to Dr. Fuhrman for assembling this remarkable work, and recommend it to you wholeheartedly." Dr. Andrew Nicholson, MD, Director of Preventive Medicine, Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, says "Dr. Fuhrman's powerful and practical guidelines apply for conditions ranging from the common cold to serious heart problems. This program provides an alternative to the costly and all-too-common side effects of surgery and drugs."
Dr. James Craner, MD, says, "This is neither alternative medicine nor conservative medicine, but rather progressive medicine. Dr. Fuhrman's approach offers individuals suffering from chronic diseases the only real chance for a meaningful cure. I have been fortunate to observe many of these outcomes firsthand and can testify to the power of this approach for certain diseases."
Dr. Dan Jeret, MD, says, "If you are lucky, you will read Dr. Fuhrman's book before you have subjected yourself to medications and medical procedures. This book is for those who want to take charge over their health and well-being, and for those who want to embark on a journey toward a more satisfying life." I could include several other recommendations from other physicians, which are included in this book.
You'll also find that it is well referenced. I suggest you go to page 227 of Dr. Fuhrman's book which begins 18 pages of medical citations for his chapters, or a total of over 260 citations throughout the book from all over the world. Just go to this Amazon.com link [9] and select the Search Inside feature, then insert 'Chapter Notes' and hit Go, select the second choice and page through as many pages of Medical and Scientific references as you like. You'll find that not only is it well referenced, but if you take the time to read some of it, you'll find that it works, as I have. While you're there you can read the introduction, the table of contents, and the back cover.
And, as user 213.155.169.65 said above:
"Have a look at [10]. As to Fuhrman, see the references to Chapter 9 (A Chapter for Physicians and for Readers Who Want More Technical Information). Most of them can be found in Medline.
"Fasting is academically recognized in Japan, Korea (South), Germany and post-Soviet countries. Scientific infrastructure (medical societies, congresses, journals, clinical monographies) exists there. German physicians, f.ex., can learn that modality within the subspecialty "Naturheilverfahren". Cfr. [11]. One can foresee a slow comeback of fasting in the U.S. via the experimental gerontology (influence of caloric restriction on longevity). Creating the international infrastructure would involve costs, and no commercially-interested sponsoring is to be expected. 213.155.169.65 18:29, 13 October 2007 (UTC)"
Ralphyde (talk) 17:57, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lack of references in "Religious fasting" sections

There are many specific facts delivered in the religious and denominational subsections. Nothing, as of right now, is referenced. (I'm talking about inline citations, not something someone has to go hunting for among "External links".) I realize the individual subsection "unreferenced" tags create a lot of ugly banners in the article, but I think this is the best way to make a practical project out of getting some verifiability in the article... As each religion or denomination is reliably sourced, we can remove that subsection's tag. --Ds13 (talk) 05:22, 22 April 2008 (UTC)